IFR climb question

[CaptHairDryer]

Hi.

Question I am confused about. You are flying 'visually' to a destination - visually because the sector is so short.

So the ceiling is dropping. You can legally descend to remain visual below LSALT (ground/water; 5000M vis; clear of cloud) to 500' -> I wouldn't go below 1000' personally.

So you go stuff it, I will climb up and shoot the RNAV for example. You need a clearance to climb as you'll climb above the class C step, so you request "Airways Clearance to climb 5000' on a heading of 090"

ATC say: "ABC on a heading of 090, climb 5000' VISUAL"

Now the ceiling is lower than 5000', so this is impossible. If I can assure terrain clearance, can I just climb in IMC to 5000'?

I am starting my IREX studies and am struggling with the whole thinking out of the square?? I mean, practically I would want to climb to 5000' so I can give the RNAV, say, a shot? What would you do and what is the legal way to go about it?

I just cannot find any reference to whether by ATC giving you a radar heading, this assures terrain clearance??

Thank you for any responses, I appreciate it. I think it's good to run scenarios, yeah?

CHD

[pjam]

"Visual" means the controller has handed over responsibility for terrain clearance to you. If you can't see the mountain then you shouldn't agree to a visual clearance.

[Mstr Caution]

ATC might be telling you climb to 5000ft VISUAL for a number of reasons.

1. To ask you to sight another aircraft passing at some later time.
2. ATC may not otherwise be able to track you on the 090 heading unless you do remain visual & like the post above states responsible for your own terrain separation.
3. The 090 heading may be towards higher terrain (read above you) but he/she may intend to turn you prior to that terrain.

If terrain is a problem & the old VHF's fail after accepting the clearance, ATC may have had you tracking towards the said terrain & would assume you are visual with the terrain in sight.

If you can't abide by the requirement to remain VISUAL then simply tell ATC unable.

[pjam]

So the ceiling is dropping. You can legally descend to remain visual below LSALT (ground/water; 5000M vis; clear of cloud) to 500' -> I wouldn't go below 1000' personally.

Not sure that this is correct. If you're in class G airspace enroute then you need VMC to descend below LSALT, not just visual., ie more stringent than just "clear of cloud".

If you're conducting a visual approach by day within 30nm then this is valid.

[MajorLemond]

I think the logical choice here would be to tell atc that your not visual, and request traffic (if you are already operating ifr / or ifr clearance to climb to 5000`. Problem sorted :)

[amberale]

When we/ATC clear you to or at a level 'visual' then YOU are responsible for terrain clearance.
If you cannot remain visual on climb to or, on reaching the cleared level then advise ATC.
The term is used because you are below the radar lowest safe altitude.
We are not allowed to vector you OCTA so the clearance would be 'enter CTA on an easterly heading on climb to 5000 visual.
This allows you to manouvre to negotiate terrain, clouds and traffic.
Once you are in CTA we might vector you and once you are above RLSALT we should cancel the "visual" component.

AA

[muffman]

I have once been in a similar situation to that described where I was OCTA below solid cloud and elected to upgrade to IFR due to deteriorating conditions at the destination. I was heading towards rising ground when I made the decision and required a clearance into the class C above me to achieve the LSALT.

ATC advised there was no traffic for climb and to enter CTA on heading 270. As I climbed they asked if I would be visual (I wasn't) and advised that I was above the radar lowest safe for my current area but that it was increasing ahead of me and that they'd keep me updated. As it turned out, I broke out on top before going below the radar LSALT so there was no issue.

All handled in a very practical and helpful manner by ATC.

[Capn Bloggs]

If you're in class G airspace enroute then you need VMC to descend below LSALT, not just visual., ie more stringent than just "clear of cloud".

Not necessarily correct. If you are below 3000ft AMSL or below 1000ft AGL, the VMC criteria are "clear of cloud, 5000m vis".

I think it's good to run scenarios, yeah?
Very good idea. Things "on the line" often don't go as per the book.

[topdrop]

ATC say: "ABC on a heading of 090, climb 5000' VISUAL"

Now the ceiling is lower than 5000', so this is impossible. If I can assure terrain clearance, can I just climb in IMC to 5000'?
Yes, but you need to tell the controller you can't climb visually.
AIP ENR 1-1 4.9 Terrain and Obstacle Clearance refers
When operating below lsalt and requesting climb, the pilot is responsible for terrain avoidance until MSA, LSALT or a level on the controller's Radar Terrain Clearance Chart. Note: it doesn't say you have to be visual.

Unfortunately, a lot of controllers think the only way they can clear you when you are below lsalt is to assign you a visual clearance, which is not correct.
You may be below LSALT, about to enter IMC and need to climb. You should request clearance to track ... or climb in present position (anything that you are sure will keep you clear of terrain while you climb).

Unless visual, headings given by ATC below radar lsalt are on an emergency basis only, which is whey the clearance should be to track ...

My clearance would be "Track as required, climb to 5000, report leaving .... (lsalt)" where I'd then be able to give you a heading or direct to...

[Pera]

The 'visual' is required if the controller is giving you a heading or level below LSALT (or MVA).

You are below LSALT, the controller is vectoring you. The visual would apply to the vector, not the altitude. (I assume A050 is above LSALT).

If you are OCTA the controller should not be vectoring you anyway, IMHO.