"Character Building" Landings

[mattuk1]

Hi All,

As many on PPRUNE I'm currently training towards PPL, about 5 1/2 hours solo so far.

I completed my first "solo land away" today - from Shoreham to Lydd and back. Obviously delighted to have done this trip successfully, but my landing back at SHM makes me want some input from you experienced PPRUNErs!

Lydd went well - 10 knot (ish) x wind on RWY 21 in a C152, got it down fine. Cup of tea and back I go. Coming back, SHM Approach gave me a "straight in" for RWY 25. To those not familiar with EGKA this is an 887m grass strip. Approach was fine, circuit quiet, wind was roughly 10-12 knot allout across from the right, but handled that at Lydd so felt OK. Decided not to select full flap aiming to achieve better control of the a/c all the way in. As I flared I touched down fairly firmly, but not "hard" as far as I remember (and you normally remember the really hard ones right?!). To my great surprise I "bounced", And this was immediately followed by a ballon. Stuck it on again and the same thing happened! 3rd time lucky as it were and she finally decided to stay on the ground. Parked up, and despite the previous 1.5 hour solo nav ex, guess what was the only thing I could think about!! After discussion with my flying school our assumption is that I hit an "upslope" and this caused my bouncing/ballooning issue. However, I'm always very hard on myself and there's that nagging question of "am I just making excuses?".

I'm going somewhere with this I promise...

Now I'm confident that given a 5kt headwind I could achieve those "greasers", nice and gentle touchdown 9 times out of 10, but given more moderate conditions like today I find it's a much more tricky job. Do others find this? What are the views on experiencing "character building" (one of my instructors has a way with words) landings like this solo? I truly see that experience is priceless in aviation, but are these kind of experiences totally healthy, or should you wait for near-calm conditions before strapping in without an instructor?

Anyway focus on the positive...first solo landaway complete! :ok:

All views welcome.

[Pilot DAR]

With only a very few exceptions, general aviation aircraft are best landed not by trying to fly them onto the earth, but rather keeping them straight and wings level, pointed down an appropriate landing area, with inadequate power to maintain level flight. At the point when they can no longer produce enough lift to remain airborne (stall) they will land, if you have precisely positioned the aircraft over the runway, at about 6" off, with no drift, you're going to have a good landing - once. That said, even with more than 25000 landings, I still mess up the odd one.

If you force the aircraft onto the runway with flying speed, it's going to bounce. If you let it drop onto the runway with flying speed, it's going to bounce. If it contacts the ground no longer having flying speed, it cannot bounce - problem solved. Though it is possible to allow an aircraft to contact the ground with lots of excess speed and not bounce, it requires tremendous precision. You will be amazed how well you can control the plane right down to the stall while landing - don't be afraid to keep it in the air. It will decellerate as well in the air, as it will in contact with the ground at the same speed ('cause you're not going to jump right on the brakes anyway - right?).

Having been railed before for this statement, I will dare repeat it now: If you have the stall warning horn sound while you're a few inches over the runway, and your not drifting, and have lots of room ahead of you, you're going to have a good landing.

The afore mentioned technique is not conducive to short landings, those will come with time, and familiarity with type. I recently flew 10 progressively more severe landings in a Cessna Caravan for the purpose of assuring adequate ground clearance of a tail boom. To achieve a proper test result, it was necessary to land with the stall horn blaring, and then pull the nose much higher. It worked fine, and the landings were great! And no, I'm not a Caravan pilot, I'd only landed a wheel plane Caravan once years before.

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Jims%20DAR%20Testing/C208Chickensticktestbefore.jpg


Before...

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Jims%20DAR%20Testing/C208Chickensticktestafter.jpg

After (Intentionally!)

Fly the plane, don't let it fly you!

PPRuNe is a great place for advice, ask any time...

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[JohnRayner]

To my mind landing an aircraft is a fairly multifactorial event compared to flying straight and level, or taking off. Lots of little things can change throughout the process that can really screw up the mental calculations you've made on your approach.

You were landing with pretty much an at limit crosswind for the mighty 152. Maybe it shifted a bit in the final stages?

There'll be plenty of landings where you wonder how you got down, and just as many that you think are set up beautifully that'll go erse up and require you to work to sort out a sudden problem. So it goes for everyone.

JR

[er340790]

Did most of my PPL training at Maastricht (EHBK) in the Southern NL. Used to fly down to Spa in Belgium (EBSP) with our instructor and another student pilot for circuit training.

Spa can certainly be 'character building'. Its 800m strip is sited high on the Ardennes just below a high ridge and invariably had near constant 90-degree crosswinds. Every photo I have shows the windsock fully extended across the runway. Gusts were frequently 35-45kts. In short, it always seemed to be a bitch of a place to learn to fly.

We'd do 10-15 circuits each most weeks. After about 5 or 6 weeks I seriously wondered if I'd ever get this flying thing licked. I'd be climbing out of the plane drenched in sweat having had to fight vicious X-winds all the way down. Some days my go-arounds outnumbered my landings!

What I didn't realise was that the instructor was deliberately training us at the most demanding airfield he knew in the region. After several months we could comfortably repeat endless combinations of deadstick / short-field / soft-field landings in almost any wind conditions there. Having flown all around the world in the years since then, I have encountered nothing more difficult than Spa at its worst.

So the blood, sweat and fear was worth it. If you train for the worst conditions, everything else is straight-forward. Also it prepares you in case conditions deteriorate unexpectedly somewhere one day.

Stick with it! It's worth it. :ok:

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi mattuk1,

PilotDAR is right. Reading your account of that landing I notice there is no mention of your stalling the aircraft onto the runway in the proper fashion.

As I flared I touched down fairly firmly, but not "hard" as far as I remember (and you normally remember the really hard ones right?!). To my great surprise I "bounced", And this was immediately followed by a ballon.

and..

Stuck it on again and the same thing happened! 3rd time lucky as it were and she finally decided to stay on the ground.

It reads as though you have just flown the aircraft onto the ground while she still had enough speed to baloon off again. While you can get away with this practice in low or nil wind conditions, even 10 or 12 kts is enough to cause her to bounce or baloon off. Especially if you hit a bump in a grass runway.

The correct way to land is to round out (or flare as they call it nowadays) and then fly level, power-off, perhaps a foot or so above the runway. You then bring the control column slowly back, just enough to hold the aeroplane off the runway, but for as long as possible. As you do this, the speed gradually decays away until she stalls cleanly and settles onto the runway. Then you can apply your brakes. Do it that way and she won't bounce.

Broomstick.

[ExSp33db1rd]

The correct way to land is to round out (or flare as they call it nowadays) and then fly level, power-off, perhaps a foot or so above the runway. You then bring the control column slowly back, just enough to hold the aeroplane off the runway, but for as long as possible. As you do this, the speed gradually decays away until she stalls cleanly and settles onto the runway. Then you can apply your brakes. Do it that way and she won't bounce.



I agree. Keep saying to yourself.... " don't land ! don't land ! " and you will find yourself holding the level attitude to touchdown, if you can just ease the nosewheel up a fraction it will be even better, add ... " be kind to the nosewheel.. " to your mantra !

I still get it wrong tho ! sometimes - so don't worry. If In Doubt Lash Out, everything goes forward for speed, throttle, mixture, carb. heat, pitch, flaps - in some aircraft. ( not necessarily in that order of course - you work it out ! )

[Lister Noble]

I had the same when I was learning (not too long ago) my first landings,nice quiet day and then suddenly on short finals,turbulence,cross winds,aircraft all over the place.
Instructor says "let go of everything",and suddenly there's no turbulence or dodgy crosswinds;)
Sweaty palms as well,instructor told me I was holding the yoke like it was a Cobra about to strike,I went out and bought a pair of horse riding gloves for a fiver,and that helped,and I still wear them as it became my normal wear.
It will get better,just takes time.
Don't be too hard on yourself:)
lister

[SkyCamMK]

Well, Where I come from roundout and flare are definitely not the same. Do not land a Cessna flat, you will eventually have a nosewheel incident. Check your crosswind technique. Cross controls to land on into wind wheel first is a good skill to develop. Keep that nosewheel off. Roundout and as you slow and sink match backpressure to sink rate by flaring (more important on grass). PM if you want to discuss.

[rogerbucks]

Matt

Check your PM'S:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

A couple of specific observations.

1. 25 at KA is very rough. There are some very apparent bumps along the runway which are capable of throwing even the best landed aircraft almost back into the air, as much as they are capable of throwing you off the ground if you are departing in the other direction. Landing as early as you can on 25 is always a good bet.

2. Do learn to question the runway being offerd where ever you go. For example at Shoreham both the other runways are nearly always available, the fact the ATIS is indicating 25 is in operation is neither here nor there. Often 20 is a better bet because it is hard and avoids the bumps. Moreover the N / S runway receives little use (because it is short) but is a good bet if the wind is really blowing out of the North. I'd always land a twin on 20 for example as long as the cross wind was tolerable and the same is true of most singles.

[George Zipper]

I suggest you learn this method, opposed to the crab, especially for the C152. The benefits are you have already set-up the x-wind controls on the approach (ie wing-down and opposite rudder to maintain heading) You have all of the finals to tune and adjust. It feels a bit uncomfortable as you are flying out of balance but it's no big deal.

The crab is still an important technique when flying low-wing types so don't abandon this method entirely.

It all takes practise so don't beat yourself up about it. We all make some duff landings.

But remember it's never too early to go around.

[mattuk1]

hi all,

thanks for the input, really very useful.
turns out PPRUNE really is a small world and roger heard me on the R/T and saw my "arrival" (more of an arrival than a landing!). turns out from his viewpoint i didn't do too badly, but really value all your comments.

although through the winter i got plenty of xwind landing practice at shm, the wing-down method isn't something i've used a lot and would be good to become more comfortable with it.

fuji - you're right about 25, and when i got in my instructor said "well ask for 31 next time?!"

[cirruscrystal]

Thats amusing as i had a very smiliar experience on one of my first crosscountry solos. I was at an airfield with gusting sea breeze where a very similar thing happened. I found it an extremely eductional experience although at the time very nerve racking.

My instructor never hammered it into me that if you are in the slightest bit unhappy with the approach or a heavy touch or balloon then firewall and go around. It is a beautiful thing to be able to do as an ex glider pilot not something that i was hard wired to do.

I think it is a slight disadvantage as a glider pilot to transfer to power as instinctively i tried to get it in depite a very near destructive 3rd bounce!

Since then strangely it almost takes the pressure off on approach as if one is slightest bit unsure as to satisfactory flare/approach then just do it again, although it is very rare that it is needed. Character building and certainly educational, as with most flying you will really learn your airmanship through PIC experience as it is you and the machine.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

it almost takes the pressure off on approach as if one is slightest bit unsure as to satisfactory flare/approach then just do it again
I was expecting to have to go around off both my approaches on Sunday, being blown around all over the shop until a very few feet off the ground, but both landings were fine. As you say, no pressure, I knew I could throw it away and try again, and I had an alternate in mind for the first landing, andI had a more into-wind runway in mind for the second landing. Having an engine and a Plan B means no pressure at all!

[mattuk1]

this is definitely something i need to be more prepared to do. to be fair my flying school do hammer the "if you're not happy just go-around" line, but (and i'm ashamed to admit) a part of me was thinking "don't go around because 25 isn't a familiar circuit for you and what if you f*** it up!). i know i know better to get back up and then think about it than risk landing, but heat of the moment and all that.

anyway valuable learning as has been stated. im certainly more aware of a. the option to go around and b. keeping it nice and slow over the threshold on grass.

cheers!

[Mike Parsons]

Pilot DAR - I have learnt a lot from your short post, so thanks! Someone has mentioned that RWY 20 can be better, even with xwinds due to the tarmac'd long surface which is exactly what I requested on my lesson the other day - also helps with crosswind landings!

Much prefer tarmac to grass because I am too paranoid about prop clearance - especially in the DA40's I fly!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

a part of me was thinking "don't go around because 25 isn't a familiar circuit for you and what if you f*** it up!)
If you need to go around you can go around, that's never wrong.

If during the climb out you haven't managed to work out where the unfamiliar circuit is, you can just continue your climb straight ahead, call "leaving the circuit", get yourself sorted out, then re-join the circuit. (This is also an option if ATC changes the runway on you whilst you're in the circuit and you can't work out where to go next.)

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi SkyCamMK,

Your following comment interests me.

Well, Where I come from roundout and flare are definitely not the same.

When I learned to fly in 1960 the term 'flare' was never ever heard in British flying, only the term 'round-out'. You only ever saw the term 'flare' in American magazines, where by corollary the term 'round-out' was never seen.

When I returned to flying in 2005, after a break of many years, the term 'round-out' had vanished and only the term 'flare' was in use.

I have assumed this to be a consequence of the very large proportion of British instructors who now do all their flying training (sorry 'flight training') in the USA. This is also attested to, for example, by the increasing adoption of the pronunciation of the word ALTimeter as alTIMeter.

Your comment suggests, however, that 'flare' and 'roundout' are two entirely different things. So in your experience how does the 'flare' differ from a 'roundout'?

Broomstick.

[Lister Noble]

I thought flare and roundout were the same,followed by the hold off until touchdown?
All semantics;)
Lister:)

[SkyCamMK]

Hi I suppose it is a bit of semantics for some but my point is that if after a steady descent one rounds out and flies parallel to the runway and does not continue to apply back pressure to maintain lift a flat landin may result and this is not good especially in a Cessna. I trained at Sherburn in early eighties and "Jacko" was most insistent. Landing on grass there he wanted the yoke back in your gut at the end of the landing and was very wary of the bounce likely from bumps in the grass!

No axe to grind, but from the number of nosewheel incidents still happening in Cessna types I think I will continue to train as I learned. Terminology may get in the way a bit from certain purists as demonstrated here perhaps. It is of course only my "opinion" and is open to challenge, I could be persuaded to change many aspects given sufficient evidence and reason. Perhaps I am just a grumpy Yorkshireman working in the south!

[Lister Noble]

skycam,
Agree we are splitting hairs,after flare/roundout I was also told to keep the thing flying a few inches above runway, gradually pulling the stick/yoke back until it would go no more,this also depends on ones girth:}
The craft eventually gives up,and lands gently.
Most of the time;)
Lister

[subsonicsubic]

To add to the confusion, my instructors used to tell me to "break the glide" and as the aircraft began to sink, incrementally "flare" the aircraft.

I have just returned to flying after a break and my landings are more or less automatic, even after a good spell away. Having said that, I recently stuffed a landing at a very wide field, so i I guess nothing is ever perfect where landings are concerned.

Cheers,

SSS:ok:

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi SkyCamMK,

...my point is that if after a steady descent one rounds out and flies parallel to the runway and does not continue to apply back pressure to maintain lift a flat landin may result and this is not good especially in a Cessna.

A 'flare' does not become a 'roundout' just because you then fail to perform a proper stalled in landing. The 'flare'/'roundout' is exactly the same process either way. 'Flare' is just the American term for 'roundout', which has now come to be in wide use here in the UK. Otherwise there is absolutely no difference. I prefer 'roundout' because it was what I was taught and I still use it because I'm old. And I learned on Auster taildraggers, and you had to land those properly; or else!

I'm not the 'purist' around here; it was you who latched onto my use of the term 'roundout'.

Jacko's instructions were absolutely correct, as also quite clearly is your technique, so I'm not suggesting you change anything. But I still wouldn't want you teaching your students that a 'roundout' is the correct name for a bad 'flare' or a botched landing.

Incidentally I'm a grumpy Scouser living in the South.

Broomstick.

[ProfChrisReed]

Quote:
...my point is that if after a steady descent one rounds out and flies parallel to the runway and does not continue to apply back pressure to maintain lift a flat landin may result and this is not good especially in a Cessna.
A 'flare' does not become a 'roundout' just because you then fail to perform a proper stalled in landing. The 'flare'/'roundout' is exactly the same process either way. 'Flare' is just the American term for 'roundout', which has now come to be in wide use here in the UK. Otherwise there is absolutely no difference. I prefer 'roundout' because it was what I was taught and I still use it because I'm old. And I learned on Auster taildraggers, and you had to land those properly; or else!


It might be helpful to adopt the terminology from glider training:

"Roundout" - change attitude so you are flying parallel to the runway;
"Hold-off" - keep the aircraft flying until it gives up and landsI was taught these as distinct, though obviously connected, phases of landing. In a glider it's pretty clear that they are not the same, as even with airbrakes open there is an appreciable delay between completing the roundout and touching down (unless you don't hold off, in which case we're into "arrival" territory).

[mattuk1]

so what are the views on students flying in conditions approaching personal limits vs. only ever flying im calm wx unless with an instructor?

[Fly-by-Wife]

students flying in conditions approaching personal limits vs. only ever flying im calm wx unless with an instructor?

Remember that a student pilot flies solo on their instructor's license and with their permission, so they should therefore only be flying solo after consulting with their instructor, who should be in a position to judge if the WX are suitable for that student under those conditions.

So it should never really be the student's decision, but actually that of the instructor - who is probably more aware of the student's personal limits than they are themselves!

FBW

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So it should never really be the student's decision, but actually that of the instructor - who is probably more aware of the student's personal limits than they are themselves!
Yes indeed.

Instructor thinks it's too bad for the student - no fly, what the student thinks doesn't matter, they should maybe reconsider how they arrived at their conclusion if, left to themselves, they would have gone flying.

Instructor thinks it's OK - student thinks it's OK - go flying.

Instructor thinks the student will be OK, but student doesn't want to do it - probably a discussion is in order, but not one which results in the instructor bullying the student into flying when they aren't comfortable with it. And if the student decides they don't like it part way through the flight there's nothing wrong with cutting it short and coming home and landing.

(At the risk of ressurecting the PINK Headsets thread, in particular the one where she turned round and went home on a solo XC because she didn't like the weather, which we all agreed was correct exercise of captaincy.)

[Maoraigh1]

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/372553-victor-airborne-merged-7.html#post4908648

Does any business produce a cockpit placard, or a glossy leaflet for handing to passengers (and examiners) with this information?:E:E:Edakkg651 (http://www.pprune.org/members/101439-dakkg651)

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: shrewsbury
Posts: 226


Every pilot who has more than a few hours will have experienced the sudden variation in the Earth's gravitational field. This can manifest itself unexpectedly, usually when you think you have just greased that landing when, suddenly, the aircraft balloons off the ground again resulting in an unseemly second arrival. This phenomenon is normally blamed on a sudden gust of wind. These areas of reduced gravity are also present on the Moon and were first investigated by NASA during the early Apollo missions because of there potentially disastrous effects on the first moon landing. These areas were christened 'Mascons' and found to be either permanent or temporary. Permanent mascons are due to laval flow deposits while temporary mascons can appear and dissapear very quickly due to the crust/mantle interface.
It was obviously the sudden formation of a temporary mascon that caused the Victor to become airborne well below it's normal flying speed and in no way is the pilot to blame for the incident.

"

[Fly-by-Wife]

Maoraigh1 - Too cryptic for me! What point are you trying to make? :confused:

FBW

[liam548]

did my first solo nav the other day and i too got about 5 and abit hours solo.

My landing was not good either. It was quite gusty though, and im down with no damage to the aircraft.

Still makes you think though doesnt it as my previous few landings have all been good.

[Jumbo Driver]

I think you will find that Flare (US) = Round Out (Brit), in the same way as Go-Around = Overshoot, Pattern = Circuit, Thrust Levers = Throttles, Gear = Undercarriage, etc.

It's just continuing evidence of "two countries divided by a common language" ...


JD
:)

[mary meagher]

Somebody already mentioned this. Flying my supercub back from Kerry International Airport a few years back, with a formidable tailwind, approaching Haverford West, they offered a runway that was subject to a hoolie of a crosswind. And they were not busy at all at all.

Know thy crosswind limits. In a supercub that's about 10 mph.

So I requested an into wind runway instead, and they kindly let me land into wind and also sent a chap out to walk with the wing. Over 25 mph it is really awkward to safely turn around and backtrack. You really don't want to touch the brakes at all, tipping up is very embarassing. Been there.

Never be ashamed to ask for help.

[Piper.Classique]

Know thy crosswind limits. In a supercub that's about 10 mph

Well, sometimes.

It depends
Runway surface, width
Gusting or steady wind
In practice or not
Take-off or landing

Know your own competences, and make allowances for tiredness, lack of recency,whatever. Oh, and remember that you can always have another go at it under normal circs.

[Sam Rutherford]

5 1/2 hours or 5 1/2 thousand hours - some of those back to earths are going to be less tidy than perfect.

It's good to try to spot reasons, and obviously we try for perfection every time, but don't worry too much about it - it's going to happen this year, next year, and at least once every year until you stop flying!

You can also consider the fact that, once 'in' the situation, you dealt with it in a manner that resulted in nothing and nobody getting hurt. That, by any terminology, is a success.:hmm:

Sam.

[Propella]

Matt,

The landing wasn't that bad and I had seen many worse on that particular day. It was a gusty day on a very bumpy runway. I wouldn't worry so much!

[OrionTiger]

Too many pilots get too hung up on what I cal "the cosmetics" regarding landings!
A good landing is a SAFE landing! What do I mean by that?:confused:
Well, a stabilized approach with good speed control on final. Configuration of the plane with trimming out of the stick forces in due time. Appropriate altitude over the airport fence, touch down in the correct place (the runway touchdown zone), always landing main wheels first! Ensuring that the forward speed is safely down to walking pace well before opposite end of runway.
If the touch down its self was a little rough, or you bounced a meter or two... who cares!

I tell you who cares: The persons that does not know a thing about aviation, like your passenger grandmother! If you almost stalled it on final, almost cut the roof of that buss on the road passing along side the airport fence, if you fleared for MILES and did a silky smooth touchdown on the last thirty yards of remaining runway and barely coming to a screeching halt on top of the red runway lights at the end.....:eek: She would still praise you for the silky smooth landing! Clapping her hands:D: "Oh my boy! You must be one hell of a good pilot!!!!" Not knowing how close she was to meeting her maker! :ugh:

Silky smooth touch downs are fun and ego boosting, yes. But they are not a measure of how "good" the landing was! Lest focus on what really is important! And when you got that down, brush on the cosmetics!

Happy landings! :ok:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Absolutely.

Just before I retired at 60, people used to ask me why I persisted in flying at my age ! 'cos I'm still trying to get it right, I answered.

On my last airline landing of a 747, in a significant cross wind, I KNOW I could have done better, kicked off the drift just a second or two sooner, released the back pressure a fraction earlier to 'roll' the main wheels on - but I'll never get another chance to prove it.

If you can't criticise every landing you do - give up, 'cos you're becoming complacent. Was that last smooth, greaser, as safe as you could make it ? Or did it contain elements mentioned by Orion Tiger ?

Operate the controls of the aircraft in such a manner that no-one knows you are doing it, pretend your 90yr. old grandmother is in seat 86 Z down the back - advice I was given years ago, and just as valid today in my single seat Turbulent !

[mattuk1]

great stuff guys thanks for all the input, really helpful.
Ella - love the name hopefully see you tomorrow if the wx is ok!