popham madness

[micromalc]

I flew into Popham yesterday, i arrived at about the same time as 40 other "microlights and light aircraft". let the chaos begin, my hat off to the A/G operator, I'm amazed he didn't have a nervous breakdown.

[steveking]

I flew in yesterday in an RV6 and a friend behind me in an RV8, very interesting. I just managed to create enough room between me and the 5 flex's on final in front of me when a Jabiru dropped from the overhead straight onto final in front of me. They had a very good system of diverting faster aircraft on final for 21 to 26, which worked well for us.

Agree with what you said about the controller, the workload doesn't come much higher than that. Well done to him.

[A and C]

I don't think that Popham has a "controller", the guy is an A\G operator and pilots would do well to remember this.

but before some of you think that this is a "pop" at the staff at Popham IT IS NOT, it is just fact.

[paulc]

I am 99% sure that the a/g operator at Popham yesterday is a qualified ATC and yes it was a busy day! Today was much quieter - no idea how busy tomorrow will be for the aerojumble

[Spitoon]

I am 99% sure that the a/g operator at Popham yesterday is a qualified ATC and yes it was a busy day! He may well be - but I presume he still only provided an A/G service.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Headcorn was also inundated with foreign microlights (& a couple of gyrocopters too!) yesterday, and the same chaos ensued.....Not half as bad as when the bloke in the Yak52 got airborne though!:ugh:

[Billredshoes]

Hi


"He may well be - but I presume he still only provided an A/G service."

No he is not (only for A/G ) and Yes it is only A/G and there where over 1,100 movments on saturday:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Nipper2]

I went on Saturday and landed at a busy time. They were coming in from all directions, including the two flex-wings in front of me who just flew their six-mile straight-in approach oblivious to the circuit traffic.

When I was landing, there was so much radio chat that the A/G man simply resorted to "About ten at once, all totally unreadable. For anyone landing at Popham we are on 26 right with a QFE of 1010". I just pretended to be non-radio.

All great fun. If you go to a big microlight fly-in on a sunny day, you should know what to expect. If you can't deal with it or don't like it, don't go!

[will5023]

Hats off to all the staff etc at Popham, a busy but thoroughly enjoyable weekend, with plenty to see and do and only a small landing to boot. Brought back memories of the PFA rallies, breaking left or right for the grass or tarmac depnding on what you were behind on approach:} !!

[Dan Dare]

Impressive movement rates I'm sure - until someone dies. This is just carnage and instructions from A/G radio oporator such as "cleared for take-off at your discression - roll now" when the runway is still occupied do not add to any feeling of legality or order. As the frequency is unrecorded then nobody will get the blame when it does go wrong, but this is not an exemplary aviation event from a safety point of view. I doubt that there was much compliance with ANO Rule 14 Landing and take-off
14. (2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.

Perhap if they wanted SAFE, ORDERLY and expeditious they should get some ATC involvement.

It is one of the last remining fun events in the vein of PFA rallies of old, but really should consider a bit more safety.

[Talkdownman]

<<Landing and take-off
14. (2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.>>

Landing only!
There's no restriction in Rule 14 about taking-off if there are other aircraft on the runway!

But, I agree, 'cleared for take-off at your discretion..... roll now' is a can of worms!!

I expect ATSD will be looking at Special Event ATC for this special event in future....

[GORXOL1]

Visited Popham safely from the ground over the weekend. Yes, the atmosphere was good, yes it was wonderful to see people enjoying themselves but is it a safe flying environment - absolutely not. I read the instructions issued on their website and came away with the feeling Popham (which is only an Air / Ground radio) has delusions of grandeur. Popham is A/G which is not ATC (although they call themselves ATC) and cannot clear anyone to take off or land.
Excerpt from instructions below:


The mass departure usually commences about 15:00 each day. ATC will give you the runway and QNH and you will be advised to “Depart with the Marshaller”. This person is a qualified controller and pilot and will be in full radio communication both with you and the Tower. You will be waved off with Red Bats when it is clear for you to go. Do not ignore the Marshaller as he knows what he is doing and has a better view of the sky/traffic than you do!

[Talkdownman]

<<advised to “Depart with the Marshaller>>

This is advice. In which case it is not an instruction.

<<You will be waved off with Red Bats when it is clear for you to go.>>

'Clear'? So was this Special Event ATC, official or otherwise?

<<This person is a qualified controller and pilot>>

This is irrelevant if a temporary ATC Service and associated procedures are not promulgated.

<<This person is a qualified.......pilot>>

And neither is this a requirement even if a temporary ATC Service is promulgated.

[S-Works]

I don't know what the fuss is about. I went to Popham at the weekend. it was wonderfully maniacally busy and between the marsheller's and the efficient radio service I had no problems with flying in, parking and flying back out. I managed to work out all by my lonesome what the marsheller's were indicating and as PIC used my own discretion to safely operate my aircraft without causing delay or inconvenience to anyone else.

It was wonderful to see so many aviation enthusiasts and the general public mingling. it also proves that the British can really make a hobby out of anything. The range of interests represented from motorbike restoration to aircraft parts was fantastic. I managed to pick up loads of 'treasure' for working on the Auster, several spare parts and a multitude of books.

As far as I am aware there were no incidents, everyone just got on with it and it proves in this day of high viz and stupid HSE rules that people can actually make safe decisions for themselves.

I would suggest that those who are uncomfortable with having to make their own decisions without the aid of ATC then they drive in. Personally I think it works just fine.

A big thanks to Popham for a fantastic event and long may it continue.
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[jonkil]

Completely agree Bose-X, I flew in around 10:30 am with a group of microlights from Ireland and it was busy, orderly but a bit chaotic. The radio instructions were 100% clear, join overhead, descend on the dead side, join downwind R/H for 21, QFE 1010, call final... 3 axis land long vacate at the top, flex wings on the numbers and vacate first left...pretty simple really.
If someone is not comfortable and experienced enough then arriving by car may be the way to go.
Popham for me is a proper aviation event, like the PFA rallies of old, without the H&S crap and hi-viz **** that goes with everyday life. It is refreshing to still have this type of event and you will find that the microlighting fraternity are among the most committed bunch of aviators with a sense of adventure.
The show itself was excellent, good trade stands, plenty of food stalls, and spending an hour lying on the grass on the flight line watching the landings was great fun. Some nice new toys on show, the seminars by the Gyro lads were very good, and the ability to go and test fly an aircraft by prospective clients is something that can't be found elsewhere at a show. All in all the show at Popham was excellent and it is the type of show the LAA need to run in order to get back to a proper national rally.
We took a mini flying holiday, 4 microlights flew from the North west of Ireland to Popham via quite a few airfields and logged over 15 hours flying, covering 1000NM of countryside in quite good weather, a very nice trip.

Jon

[NigelOnDraft]

Whilst a proper ATC service might be safer (to a degree), the primary effect of bringing one in would be to reduce the movements to a fraction of what this system achieves :ugh:

It is a privilege that there are things where commonsense, and personal evaluation of the risks, are "allowed", and it seems that the Popham website gave due advice as to the risks and procedures.

Anyone who went, and then was unhappy with the risks / procedures, would seem to have either not briefed themselves, or been unable to assess the situation and delay / leave / stay on ground at the time :oh:

NoD

[Dan Dare]

The PFA rallies were mostly full ATC and achieved at least as many movements as Popham, but in a more orderly manner. A/G does not have the authority to send aircraft around when collision is imminent and seem to significantly overstep the mark where runway useage is concerned. Having flown in to both of these events on many ocasions - give me PFA any day.

Do not ignore the Marshaller as he knows what he is doing and has a better view of the sky/traffic than you do!

Says it all and is a post-accident can-of-worms just waiting to be opened. They have merely been lucky this year (and previous years) but really should consider intoducing some more fail-safe procedures - not least to allow better runway utilisation legally.

I know my limits and when to disregard unsafe instructions, but I fear that many do not know theirs.

[S-Works]

I know my limits and when to disregard unsafe instructions, but I fear that many do not know theirs.

And it would seem you are trying to oppose your limits on others........ There were certainly no comments from the people that I flew in with or talked to on the ground that there was a problem. I most people understand that they are pilot in command and know how to make their own decisions without having to be held by the hand all the time?

No point in arguing, you have made up your mind. Personally I thoroughly enjoyed myself as did everyone we went with and met.

[Windy Militant]

The PFA rallies were mostly full ATC and achieved at least as many movements as Popham
Er no the PFA used a similar system to that used at Oskosh,
The only time they tried full ATC was when the CAA insisted they had it at Wroughton in 1990 or 91.
They dropped it half way through the first day..............

apparently people are still hearing faint radio calls from The Liddington Hold. ;)

[Rod1]

As Windy says, the only time full ATC was used at a PFA rally it was a disaster and abandoned after a few hours. People were stuck in the Liddington Hold for hours and the Pan calls from people running short of fuel eventually caused a change of hart from the CAA. The rest of the event then worked fine.

Rod1

[Mike Cross]

Dan Dare
I doubt that there was much compliance with ANO Rule 14

And what pray has that got to do in any way shape or form with the a/g service? The pilot is driving the machine and compliance is entirely his responsibility and no-one else's. I flew out on Saturday and back on Sunday and had no qualms. Pilots were, quite rightly, going round rather than landing when the a/c in front had not cleared the runway.

A/G does not have the authority to send aircraft around when collision is imminent and seem to significantly overstep the mark where runway useage is concerned. Having flown in to both of these events on many ocasions - give me PFA any day.

You display a lamentable lack of knowledge Air Law. If you want to have a pop at someone at least have the grace to select the correct target.

[jonkil]

If the PIC is not content landing in this environment, then the answer is simple...... stay away, there is tons of empty airfields throughout the country.

Grand day out for those of us who are pretty content to land at this type of event, as far as 99.99% pilots were concerned the controller was excellent.

[katana 1]

Fantastic Day. Yes it was busy but what a buzz.
Well done to all who made it possible.:ok:

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Excellent Weekend. One aspect that may have eluded some folks is that this was theoretically a microlight event, although well supported by the slightly heavier end of GA. Many microlighters learn their craft from farm strips with only the Microlight frequency or Safetycom. They are well used to keeping themselves safe in an uncontrolled environment. Perhaps it’s one of these cases the less safe it appears, the more care people actually take.

One comment I would make is that the profusion of Hi-Viz was quite disconcerting. On Saturday, having landed on 21 it became obvious that we’d need to taxi up beside 26 to find somewhere to park. Almost everyone standing beside the taxiway seemed to be wearing some sort of hi-viz garment. Thankfully we know most of Popham’s regular marshallers by sight, so continued until we found a friendly face. Perhaps the scouts who were doing duty as landing / entry fee collectors were required to wear ‘safety’ hi-viz, but it would have been helpful if the photographers and spotters had left theirs at home.

Thanks to all at Popham for making it work, hope this is the start of a good flying season.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[Radarspod]

Having worked at Popham some years ago and operated the radio on many a busy fly in, I've read this thread with some interest and I am glad to see the place is still doing well and maintaining it's friendly and fun atmosphere.

I know it can get mental on a busy day - but that's half the challenge....nothing is more boring than a flat wide strip with a straight in approach and controlled traffic. It's because Popham is a bit different and very friendly that it's popular.:ok:

Glad to know everyone still has a good time.

RS

(Ex-Popham refueller, radio operator, landing fee collector, administrator, tie-down mower, BBQ operator, general dogsbody......)

[Dan Dare]

Er no the PFA used a similar system to that used at Oskosh,
The only time they tried full ATC was when the CAA insisted they had it at Wroughton in 1990 or 91.
They dropped it half way through the first day..............


Well actually the PFA Rallies were all full ATC except for the last two Flying-for-fun at Kemble, which were FIS, but with the proviso that the FISOs were also qualified tower ATCOs. The methods by which ATC/FIS was provided changed depending on the needs of the CAA. An implied landing clearance unless sent around seemed to work well. A temporary fudge to allow the FISOs to issue go-around instructions also worked. The fact that many pilots (and air traffic controllers) are unable to tell the difference just highlights the danger of having an ambiguous service provision.

As an Aerial Special Event CAP403 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap403.pdf) instructs
NOTE: Organisers should ensure that the type of service (i.e. ATC, FIS or AGCS) is suitable for their event and that the event has been adequately notified. ATSD may, in the interests of safety, direct the person in charge of any aerodrome (other than a Government aerodrome) to provide an air traffic control service, a flight information service or an air/ground communication service as ATSD consider appropriate.

It could be that ATSD regard this level of movements to be sensible with A/G, but I doubt that they have been given the opportunity to consider its appropriateness.

I am most certainly not of the HSE "high-viz-vest" brigade, but this event could be safer with little or no loss the fun factor and no loss of movements with procedurs appropriate for the event. Popham A/G are very helpful and I rate the airfield amoung my favourites, but transmitting "cleared for take-off at your discression - roll now!" when the runway is blatantly well occupied (as I experienced there) is asking for trouble. An event like this could also do with the extra pair of eyes on the approach to save the bacon of those with pilots with blind spots on final approach - nobody is immune from these.

I'm looking forward to G-VFWE and the eventual return of a real LAA Rally (2010?) and thank all those, who puts in lots of work to make aviation events safe and enjoyable.

[A and C]

First............. Rule 14.

It is one of the strange things that I can land a 78,000kg airliner at Gatwick with another aircraft on (normaly just exiting) the runway however in a non controled enviroment it is not allowed. When rule 14 is used as I have seen it used at Duxford it is an accident waiting to happen.

It must be safer for a microlight to "land after" another aircraft that is exiting at the far end of the runway than to go around and add another aircraft to the crowded circuit.

Second............ Hi Vis.

We have become so conditioned to the nanny state that now large numbers of persons turning up at these events are clad in the "hi-vis". this in now resulting in confusion as to who is part of the marshaling team and who is not!

Another case of the safety numptys shooting them selfs in the foot! I can only assume that some people are starting to think that the "hi-vis" will ward off danger like some sort of force field.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<We have become so conditioned to the nanny state that now large numbers of persons turning up at these events are clad in the "hi-vis". this in now resulting in confusion as to who is part of the marshaling team and who is not!>>

My wife and I are regular visitors to Popham, although we missed last weekend's excitement. When we first visited and asked permission to take photographs we were told it was OK if we had high-vis jackets, which we did. We were told to wear them and always have done when walking around the aircraft. Maybe Popham marshallers should have different colour jackets to make them easily distinguishable?

[HeliCraig]

Well said HD... I was just about to chip in with that.

I work in a very large factory where nearly everyone wears a Hi Viz (because, it is true, you actually can't get hurt with one on... no, really! :ok:); so when the fire alarm goes off, or something else noteworthy happens it gets interesting to try and find appropriate person!

Solution: different coloured Hi Viz. Everyone wears yellow, except Fire Marshalls who have red, First Aiders who have Green & Security (who also provide fire & ambulance) have orange and yellow if they aren't in fire kit!

Sure Popham could solve it easily by just buying a different coloured tabbard for the marshallers! I'll leave the ATC subject to someone better qualified.

[Pitts2112]

Folks,
The issue of Popham Marshallers in hi-viz is much simpler and already solved. The official marshallers wear orange jumpsuits, and are the only ones on the field that do, if I'm not mistaken. Most people wearing hi-viz seem to be spotters.

[HighQ]

I flew in to Popham on Saturday, but I went early and avoided the rush. The really busy time for arrivals is between 10am and 12pm I have been told, so I left my field at 7am and arrived at 8.30am. If the rest of the flying community thought about trying to time their arrivals like I did then there wouldn't be quite so much bunching of aircraft on finals during the busy time, and instead there would just be a steady stream.

I must admit the only time I worried about collisions was when I watched a Jodel landing on 26. The pilot flew over the microlights parked to the left of 21 with less than 15ft between his wheels and their wings, flaps fully down, high AOA, right along the parking area, before turning over the arrow to land on the numbers on 26. If his engine had so much as spluttered, he would have caused carnage among the massed spotters, so perhaps it wouldn't have been such a disaster after all :O.

Seriously though, there were two or three incidents of heavy metal aircraft flying very low and very slow over the parked micros, when I don't think it was entirely necessary. An extra few feet of clearance, and an extra 5 knots wouldn't have gone amiss. After all, 26 isn't exactly short, and it wasn't necessary to land right on the numbers, even in a Vans.

Regarding the hi-viz jackets, I agree that if they are to be worn at all, then some sort of colour coding would be a very good idea. I suggest the normal yellow for the spotters, orange for marshallers, say red with yellow bands for emergency bods, (fire, first aid, etc), and bright pink with lurid green polka dots for the person with the clip board who hands them all out to everyone ;)

[jxk]

Anyone flown into Sun & Fun in the US? If so you'll know how disciplined they are there - no radio talk only listening. PFA tried a similar system at Cranfield one year but some people didn't follow the correct entry procedure and wanted to tell their life history over the radio. The basic premise at S & F is to get everyone into a line a few miles out (Lake Parker Power station) so that people were not joining the circuit from random directions and landing instructions issued when downwind and on finals. Again no air to ground - acknowledgement by rocking your wings.

[Windy Militant]

I must apologise to Dan Dare my memory was at fault having checked back, the rallys including Kemble were run under ATC as a temporary restricted area. My confusion arose from memories of Wroughton Radio, which was the after hours A/G which operated when the ATC shut down at 20:00hrs local until sundown. Which was the cue for us gophers to hoick the radio batteries out of the control caravan to put them on charge and head for the beer tent!

[Vino Collapso]

I used to fly in to the PFA at Cranfield back in the late 70's and early 80's. It was licensed ATC but the r/t phraseology drifted away from CAP413 simply because it had to. Quite often you would get " if the aircraft ahead of you lands on the right side of the runway then you land on the left, and vice versa". It worked but was way outside the book!

Never been to Popham but it sounds like a fun event. Unfortunately in this modern day and age you will find a line of 'regulators' just waiting to screw the 'safety' lid down on this just as soon as something nasty happens.

Imposing full licensed ATC on an event like this will only serve to slow things down whilst the controllers labour under modern day regulation.

Things aren't what they used to be.

[john ball]

I flew in on the Monday in my RV6. I found the air traffic control very good and aircraft all slotting in together around the circuit. The marshalling was also good. My only comments, are that the parking area on the east side of 21/03 has a lot of rabbit holes, which are not too good for us RV flyers as we have so little clearance unde the spats with the small wheels.
Great classic car turnout and plenty of stands. Finally, I think that charging a small landing fee of £5 was a very good idea, as it all helps the running costs of Popham.

[Billredshoes]

Hi
please have a look at this link (http://www.popham-airfield.co.uk/images/Popham%20MTF%202009.jpg)

[tommoutrie]

What is the bit of legislation that requires the wearing of high vis jackets when airside? If anyone has an exact reference it would be very useful.

Its a sad reflection on the way pilots are trained that if an air traffic controller doesn't tell them what to do they are stuffed.

Thats a really nice photo of popham by the way!


Tom

[Mike Cross]

What is the bit of legislation that requires the wearing of high vis jackets when airside? If anyone has an exact reference it would be very useful.

There isn't one. The reason usually cited is Elfin Safety, which generally tends to show that the relevant person doesn't know how to carry out a proper risk assessment and is more concerned with @rse covering than achieving a safe working environment. The main danger of being on foot when airside is of being run over by a baggage tractor hurtling out of the gloom under the terminal at LHR or LGW, which is hardly a risk factor at most GA fields.

The "bible" is CAP 642 Airside Safety Management (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap642.pdf)

It says
g) All push-back crew members should wear high visibility garments in compliance with current standards;

High-visibility clothing
6.9.8 Irrespective of other measures that are taken to provide a safe environment for personnel working in airside areas, all personnel who will be working outside (i.e. on foot) on the movement area should wear high-visibility clothing.

Note that this refers to people WORKING, which is why airline staff wear the jackets when escorting passengers on the apron but the passengers are not required to.

It also suggests that hi-vis should be worn during low-vis operations, again not a factor at most GA fields which are not equipped to operate in low vis conditions

[C42]

Your right about the pot holes! I flew in an RV8 and took off again with the spats in the back (broke one)

apart fro that it was exellent (apart from a couple of planes that jumped the Q on final!!)

I took off ay lunchtime saturday, did any one else see the 2 x C42s in the ploughed field just to the south of the airfield! these were the two that were flying around in formation and one had an engine failure, and in true formation style the wingman followed him in!!

Dave