Simulator time and the FTL scheme

[pitchlink]

Quick question,

Does time spent in the simulator need to be conducted in accordance with the FTL (CAP 371) or not? Can only find reference to simulators if combined with actual flying in the same FDP.

[Droopy]

Top of the head, no docs at hand: it always counts as duty, counts as FDP if before an "actual" FDP, doesn't count as FDP if after an "actual" FDP.

[pitchlink]

If doing an extended course, do the days off requirements have to be complied with? ie. 3 in 14 of which 2 must be consecutive?

[JimL]

Pitchlink,

That is an interesting question.

When seeking the answer, you should remember that days off are not necessarily provided for recovery (in an academic sense) but to ensure that the crew member is sufficiently rested before the next FDP.

That was the basis of Droopy's answer to your first question.

Following the extended course and the return to flying duties, you should have met the requirements for 'rest'/'days off' and continue to meet the requirement in the next run of FDPs (always supposing of course that you pass the course and continue flying in the company).

The time on the extended course should count towards cumulative duty time.

Jim

[Geoffersincornwall]

I always brief the TR candidates that although the 2 week course has Sunday down as a rest day it is also the day that we put aside to catch up in the event of any down-time on the sim. I then make the point that they should be prepared to work 12 days straight and to let me know if anything in their FTL scheme prevents this. I also explain that they could be working late-shift which can mean a 0230 finish.

So far no problems ........ but I can imagine there might be for some. Doing 4 hours in the sim IFR training at 0200 is not a lot of fun.

JIML

I believe that the relationship between sim use and flying is down to the spatial disorientation that a couple of hours in the box can cause. The rule here is that you can fly then sim but not the other way around. After jumping out of the box and driving home I can testify to some weird experiences driving round corners.

G

[212man]

I would say it is a clear cut answer, in line with Jim's reasoning.

Simulator training counts as 'duty', therefore the limits on 'duty' agreed with the CAA (etc) for the FTL scheme remain applicable, along with the required rest days and periods preceeding an FDP.

So, I would say that Geoff's 12 day stretch would not be acceptable to a CAP371 operator. Equally, there is no constraint on whether a mixed simulator and flying FDP has the sim session prior to or subsequent to the flying activity (though you as an operator may place such a constraint.)

The bottom line is that the FTL scheme is for The Avoidance of Fatigue In Aircrews and therefore following a period of simulator training (or indeed any activity of duty) the crew should be in a fit state to re-commence normal line flying with members OF THE PUBLIC.

[heliski22]

And there was I thinking that was all down to your driving, Geoff?

Silly me!!:)

[Geoffersincornwall]

When did you say your next recurrent session is due? :E

G :)

[Geoffersincornwall]

With regard to any CAP371 candidates that have to work on the middle Sunday I guess they could put a Discretion Report in due the circumstances and bearing in mind we are not talking CAT here, it is likely to be acceptable. Especially as there is a 'one-off' element involved. Anyway, those that I have had so far have had a grin-and-bear-it approach and have been lucky enough not to have the sim go down on them. Would be interesting if it became an issue though.

G

[212man]

With respect, it's not up to the candidates to 'grin and bear it' it's up to them to respect their FTL scheme in their OMA. It's there to protect the CAT pax after the event, not during their training.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. The guys were putting up with the prospect of having to work the 12 days straight - not putting up with actually having to do it. Not sure any UK candidates have yet had to work through.

That said I am one of the few that actually worries about FTL concerns. The majority of my colleagues have a different background and are probably not streetwise with regard to FTL issues. After all we are not responsible for such matters and it is down to each student, once the regime has been explained, to express any concern. Not necessarily how I would like it to be but that's the reality of the situation.

As far as I know the TRTO approval process does not include an obligation with regard to FTL or 'fatigue management' in general but maybe it should. Perhaps somebody that knows something about JAR FCL TRTO Approvals can comment. I believe our basic tenet is one based on 12 hours rest between any training; 4 hours in the sim max daily; 2 hours in the aircraft max daily.

G

[212man]

well, that makes sense because the TRTO is not subject to an FTL scheme, in your case, as the instructors are not subject to an AOC approval with it's attendant FTL requirements. The candidates may be either from the private sector, and so not subjected to any FTL limits either, or from a JAA CAT operator, in which case they will be obliged to follow their company FTL scheme. If it mirrors CAP371 then my comments are as above. If not, then as Subpart Q has never been adopted who knows what limits they may be subject to......? The Greeks will be different to the Norwegians, that's for sure!

[Geoffersincornwall]

........ and Europeans form only a portion of our customers and quite a lot are from military or paramilitary organisations so FTL schemes may not be part of their vocabulary.

Effective training does however involve an element of fatigue management and whilst we have not yet had any serious problems with this aspect of the course I welcome feedback that may help us to avoid problems in the future.

G. :ok:

[heliski22]

Geoffers

Hopefully in November, if I still have a job!! At that time, we can compare post-sim driving technigues on the road out to Ispre, preferably before a glass or two of Jameson!!!

22

;)