View Full Version : Single man pushback
Olendirk
26th Apr 2009, 13:27
Guys,
what is the information about? What advantage has it for me as a cockpit crew member?
Thanks for the help
OD
leewan
26th Apr 2009, 15:47
You mean single man pushback as in one man on ground or one man in the cockpit ?
PENKO
26th Apr 2009, 15:55
The way they do it in Amsterdam is very efficient..not limited by the walking speed of the second guy :}. I'm not sure I understand your question though.
Exactly PENKO,
It beats the way the whole show is run in LGW, where you need about 4 people to do a pusback.
Is this actually a UK regulation or just the lack of investment in the Tugs which have the capability to be operated by just one person?
Is this actually a UK regulation or just the lack of investment in the Tugs which have the capability to be operated by just one person?
More than likely, some sort of labour union rule/requirement.
what is the information about?Olendirk - once again your question is a difficult one! What are you asking about? Do you mean the 'Powerpush' as used in Brussels (in my experience) or what?
Blink182
27th Apr 2009, 10:09
Allways need more people during pushback if there is a roadway behind the stands....as is the case at a lot of LGW stands. 2 to stop traffic, one in tug, one on headset / disconnecting towbar.
poldek77
27th Apr 2009, 14:49
You can see it everyday in e.g. ZRH or CPH, but as I noticed - only for towbarless pushback. Works well, but I was never informed that would be a single man operation. But when complete you have to know how many persons you have to see before starting taxi.
Rainboe
27th Apr 2009, 18:29
...............
well, BRU isn't a very good example how something works or not...
I guess it wouldn't have been faster if there were a dozen of people on the ground :hmm:
Dani
Rainboe - the disadvantage of working for a loco. Powerpush in Brussels always used to be quick and smooth for a proper airline.:) Normally on the port main gear for us, with a right turn off stand, and always an interesting challenge to 'back yourself' onto the yellow line.
Anyone seen Olendirk..............................?:ugh:
tigger2k8
27th Apr 2009, 23:53
Depends on the airport and its regulations, along with the handling firms equipment/policy... in all honesty i think a 1 man push-back is unsafe... say the tug driver suddenly took ill during pushback at a crucial stage, could lead to damage, injury or even death, but thats my views
BFS is a 3 man push-back, 1 for traffic / removal of bar / bypass pin, 1 tug driver, 1 on the headset... this is the same throughout the 3 handling firms (Aviance, Menzies and Servisair) this is similar at many airports that have roads at the back of stand
Sometimes, the six P's can be put to good use, when required.
A couple of months ago, the tug driver comes up and announces...'my headset doesn't work, do you have an objection?'
I mention to the guy...
'Hand signals work fine for me, I'll flash the taxi light, one for start, two for stop...and I think we have done this before, have we not?'
He says...'yes, we have, thanks Captain' and the resultant pushback works quite OK.
PS:
6 P's.
Prior Planning Prevents Pi** Poor Performance.
stilton
28th Apr 2009, 04:07
Bad idea 411, our company policy specifically excludes pushback without headset communication and for good reason.
Too many things can go wrong where rapid, clear two way communication can be a great asset.
mustafagander
28th Apr 2009, 08:29
What lights would you flash for an engine fire on start?
PENKO
28th Apr 2009, 08:43
Stilton, bad idea as your policy would lead to many delays and cancelations:ok: I see your point though, but my company doesn't mind so much to push back, and even start engines simultaneously without headset communication.
Mustafa, what lights would you flash and to whom when you start the second or the third engine on taxi out? Or when you are parked remotely and have to start without ground support? Again, you have a point, but...
Regarding the safety of a one man push, I wonder if the tugs have an equivalent of the 'dead man's stick' I am told you find in trains.
leewan
28th Apr 2009, 12:21
One man pushback is definitely an unsafe practise. Here, it is, 1 man on airtug, one on headset and one to disconnect towbar and bypass pin and standby for visuals.I personally encountered a situation when after removing the towbar and bypass pin, I stood in direct visual contact with the cockpit while my colleague was on the headset. After disconnecting the headset, he had problem closing the headset panel(B737) and was trying to close it.The capt saw the airtug(which was parked on the capt side with back facing a/c) and decided to power up and taxi. Luckily, I( FO side) ran infront of the a/c and gave brakes on hand signal. My colleague wet his pants when he heard the engines spool up.
And if you are doing a headsetless pushback, it's always better to use the standard ICAO handsignals rather than flashing torchlights. Proactive, but very limited in usage and prone to miscomm.
Bad idea 411, our company policy specifically excludes pushback without headset communication and for good reason.
Good for you, stilton, seems like your company has not adopted alternate plans for when a headset is not available/unserviceable....or even when English is not that well spoken by ground personnel.
This way you get more time off.:}
Our group, on the other hand is slightly more adaptable, and have learned how to cope with odd situations.
We combine standard ICAO hand signals with whatever else is necessary, to get the job done in a reasonable manner.
As for an engine fire upon start, I wonder what mustafagander does when he wants to start an engine whilst taxying...have someone on headset running along side?:rolleyes:
Odd situations require just a bit of thought...the 6 P's again.:)
PENKO
28th Apr 2009, 13:46
Leewan, towbars are so out of date! You need one of those all singing and dancing sexy little pusher thingys for a one man show.
Simple economics , tow bar less tugs are very expensive, which is why you still get pushed by ancient tugs in a lot of places ! Ref headsets , you cant use them when theres a lightning risk so if your airline doesnt allow handsignals then i guess you take a long delay............
muduckace
28th Apr 2009, 16:48
Simple economics , tow bar less tugs are very expensive, which is why you still get pushed by ancient tugs in a lot of places ! Ref headsets , you cant use them when theres a lightning risk so if your airline doesnt allow handsignals then i guess you take a long delay............
Not really soo simple, the towbarless tug does not require the massive deisel engines conventional ones do, reliability is greater maintenance costs are less. We love them at our operation. We increase efficiency by not running that big diesel to go get a different towbar for a different type jet.
The only thing unsafe about pushing yourself is having to get out to disconnect the headset and bypass pin thus we use a 2 man crew. some insist on walking a wing, I believe this practice only need to be used when "ground handeling" people are doing the job. I don't trust them as it is not a career but just a job to most of them.
It is an international standard to drive behind an aircraft with a beacon on at your own risk, you deserve a chewing out if you attempt this after pushback has commenced.
The towbarless tug gives great visibility and control, I would consent to a one man operation if there was a way to remotely remove the bypass pin and headset chord, or a wireless option.
I personally hate having a wing walker, just another liability. Back in my flight mech days we ran over a guy on a headset down in san Jose Costa Rica with a DC-10-30. He got tangled up in the headset chord and fell behind the NLG in a turn, 2 pices of the poor kid were left and probably about 30 lbs of ground-rican about 5 feet long/nose gear width wide.
c100driver
28th Apr 2009, 23:13
We use the Schoff power push (attached to MLG and turns it with friction rollers)at my airline for A320 and B737 with a one man push back. It has been good the last 10 years with a fifty percent drop in nose gear damage and maint problems. All out push backs have at least 1 90 deg turn and some have up to three to get out of an alleyway.
Our engineers love it as they only have to disconnect the headset, as the tug has an auto disconnect function that allows the aircraft to just drive away from the tug.
Flight Crew love it because it is very smooth in operation, and the disconnect is very fast so limited time waiting for all the grount crew.
stilton
29th Apr 2009, 05:22
I'll take a semi-literate person on the headset over a complete lack of two way voice communication and poor understanding of hand signals any day.
Too many things can go wrong, headsets are cheap insurance and I have never operated into any Airport that could not scare one up :ok:
kick the tires
29th Apr 2009, 06:02
411A - and if the taxi light fails, especially considering all that on/off of the bulb...........
leewan
29th Apr 2009, 15:19
Leewan, towbars are so out of date! You need one of those all singing and dancing sexy little pusher thingys for a one man show.
We do have a good mix of towbar and TBL(towbarless) tugs. But some airlines specifically request that a towbar tug be used. It seems that they find pushbacks with TBL have a higher incidence of NLG damage.
For towbars, you have the shear pins that will indicate that you came close to the a/c NLG max limits and inspection be done. I understand that TBLs have an oversteer warning light. Is this programmed to be a/c type specific or just a general angle ?
Headsets should always be used other than during a lightning storm. And if handsignals are to be used, it's better to have a simple "briefing" with the flight crew in the cockpit before hand.
TURIN
30th Apr 2009, 09:02
From my own experience.
In the past 12 months I have witnessed 5 incidents with towbarless tugs. At the same airport with 3 different handling agents and 4 different airlines.
1. Tug tried to establish positive contact with the nose wheels, the aircraft brakes were off and the chocks behind the main gear had been left well clear :hmm: . This resulted in the aircraft being shoved rearwards while passengers and cargo were loading. Fortunately no injuries or damage. SOP now changed for the tug crews to check brakes are set before setting up.
2. Steering lockout pin not fitted, Towbarless tug tore the tyres of the wheels. :eek: Don't know whether the over torque warning was inop or ignored. Made a mess though.
3. Wheels slipped through the lifting bars as the nose was lifted breaking the torque link.
4. At least 2 aircraft seen on the taxiway with the nose gear at over 90 degs, tug still attached and a group of dayglo vested chaps standing around scratching their heads.
As for single man operation, don't like it. Unsafe in so many ways especially in the dark.
As the man said, standard hand signal procedure can be adopted if necessary but it's good airmanship to have a chat with the crew first to make sure were all on the same wavelength.
Engine starting is always done with a man on the headset except for one of the airlines I'm involved with. It is an American carrier so I can only assume the FAA have a different view on the rest.
Just my two penn'th:ok:
Edited to add...I don't like the flashing of nose taxi lights either. My retina can't take that kind of punishment just as I'm pulling the steering pin and checking the lock pin has been removed. Please don't do it. :ok:
411A - and if the taxi light fails, especially considering all that on/off of the bulb...........
We have two, both controlled by a separate switch.
Lockheed, buit to a slightly higher standard...:ok:
We don't normally do a single man pushback, nor one without a headset, only when it becomes absolutely necessary..
We don't take delays when the slight problem can be worked around using the 6 P's.
TheChitterneFlyer
30th Apr 2009, 12:56
All this flashing of lights... one thing I will guarantee... you'll blind the tug driver!
leewan
30th Apr 2009, 13:46
Schoff power push (attached to MLG
MLG ??? :confused: C100driver, how can the a/c be steered if it's attached to the MLG ? Or is it a typo ?
And , does anyone know if the oversteering warning light found on TBLs are a/c type specific or just a general angle ?
No type, leewan. Page 2 of 67.199.19.247/gp/airdub07/press/dateien/presslist_4.pdf (http://www.pprune.org/67.199.19.247/gp/airdub07/press/dateien/presslist_4.pdf) will explain all
leewan
30th Apr 2009, 15:17
Thanks for the info, BOAC. Guess the fears of the airlines that don't want TBLs are justified to certain extent.
Guess the fears of the airlines that don't want TBLs are justified to certain extent. - not sure I follow?
leewan
30th Apr 2009, 15:40
Read my reply #26. The main reason that some airlines ban pushbacks with TBL is the higher incidence of NLG damage with them. And if there is no proper overtorque/oversteer warning like the towbar shear pin which are type specific(not sure of multi fleet though), then their fears are justified. Follow ?:)
NO, in a word, since you posted it in the reply on the Powerpush which goes nowhere near the nosewheel!
Swedish Steve
30th Apr 2009, 16:47
All this flashing of lights... one thing I will guarantee... you'll blind the tug driver
Can I say to all pilots. NEVER flash the nose light to attract attention.
I was departing an A319 last week at night. Standing at the nose connection, when the capt flashed the nose light about one metre from my eyes.
It wasn't just that I could not see anything, I was doubled up in pain for 5 mins, my left eye felt it was on fire. Finally managed to stand up, and the aircraft departed about 10 mins late!
Never happened to me before. At our airline it is strictly forbidden. The tow crew will just leave.
I told the crew what I thought of them, and wrote to their boss. I had a pain in my retina for 3-4 days.
leewan
1st May 2009, 11:32
WOW ! :ooh:Ok, now I'm lost. WTH is a powerpush ?:confused: I thought all pushbacks with TBLS were nicked powerpush. Can someone enlighten me ?
Leewan - Post 31 perhaps?:confused:
leewan
1st May 2009, 15:25
The thing is that the link isn't working on my side. I just took your word for it.:O Didn't know it was abt powerpush. Can you try again ?
Apologies, then - try SCHOPF! Tractors. Loaders. Stairs. And more. (http://www.schopf-gse.com/products/tractors/powerpush.php). There's a video there too.
This was the other link 67.199.19.247/gp/airdub07/press/dateien/presslist_4.pdf (http://67.199.19.247/gp/airdub07/press/dateien/presslist_4.pdf)
Try that one - somehow 'pprune.org 'stuck its nose in there before!
leewan
1st May 2009, 16:20
No worries.;) This is the first time I've ever seen a pushback like this. I honestly thought it was a typo when C100driver posted it was attached to the MLG. Pretty unique.Guess the pilot does the nosewheel steering from the cockpit then ?
leewan
1st May 2009, 16:25
Swedish Steve, didn't the pilot's flight school ever taught him about the existence of the GND CALL/Mech Call button to attract gnd crew's attention ?
c100driver
1st May 2009, 17:06
Yes the pilot steers left and right from direction of the engineer. Our airline brought two to trial in 2000 and was so happy with them they have them at all mainline airports. The use is limited to B737 and A320 and used by aircraft engineers only.
From a pilot point of veiw they are fantastic, very smooth push and stop. Pilot can overide with brakes if required.:ok:
Friendly Dispatcher
2nd May 2009, 18:59
Some input from the other side of the push back, as someone who usually does the headset during a 3 man push back with tow bar. We use one tug driver, another to stop traffic on the road networks and remove the tow bar and pin, and myself on the headset. I wouldn't want to do it with any less than two people. I never disconnect until the tow bar and pin have been removed and then walk clear together with the pin-man for the wave off. Just incase there are problems in removing the bar or pin and the crew wonder what we're playing at.
Anytime I've been unable to use a headset, I usually have a quick brief with the crew before hand so everyone knows what's going to happen. Like someone said, Prior Preparation Prevents... Same goes for instances where non-standard push procedures are being used due to WIP or unserviceable APUs.
PS Remember that with some intercom systems it's like a hot-mike and we can hear everything you're saying. Least you could do is wait until we've disconnected before bad mouthing us to your colleague.:suspect:
IRRenewal
2nd May 2009, 19:52
Least you could do is wait until we've disconnected before bad mouthing us to your colleague.
Remember we only do this if you deserve it...................
we in ZRH/LSZH use Goldhofer AST towbarless lifting trucks, operated by one single guy during the whole push back procedure, and I could not think of a more efficient operation. Push back goes about a third of the time, and I seldom feel more safe with them. Compared to endless pushing around in most of British airports with half a dozen unmotivated ground crew...
we in ZRH/LSZH use Goldhofer AST towbarless lifting trucks, operated by one single guy during the whole push back procedure, and I could not think of a more efficient operation. Push back goes about a third of the time, and I seldom feel more safe with them. Compared to endless pushing around in most of British airports with half a dozen unmotivated ground crew...
I certainly could not agree more, ZRH is a fine operation, and has been for a very long time....and I started flying there regularly a long time ago.
Now, I expect that one or two here will start the 'ZRH bashing' because of the one man operation (IE: 'our way is the only way' will often be quoted, ignoring others who have a different successful outcome) , however it works as advertised, at least in my experience.
....didn't the pilot's flight school ever taught him about the existence of the GND CALL/Mech Call button to attract gnd crew's attention ?
Don't know about 'pilots flight school' but many times using the GND CALL feature, is to no avail...it is simply ignored at some places.
muduckace
3rd May 2009, 16:44
Remember we only do this if you deserve it...................
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4901258)
You sir deserve your autopilot deferred. Don't forget the person you judge may be the same one who decides what buttons you will be allowed to play with.