Ohhhh dear...Not Again!!

[Jabawocky]

Now before we all get going, there are plenty of good folk at Big Brother in Cantberra and the regional offices, but really this takes the cake.

I thought Nth Qld had been sorted out by Bruce Byron.... :ugh::ugh: :=

This is disgraceful, even if only 10% of it is true :mad:

Dad?s Army Rides Again! | Aircraft for Sale, Plane Sales, Planes for Sale - Aviation Advertiser ? - Online Magazine (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au/2009/04/dad%E2%80%99s-army-rides-again/)

J

[Icarus53]

Power corrupts .....:yuk:

I am not fully conversant with the new/proposed legislation - perhaps someone in the know could advise whether the ATSB would now (or will soon) have the authority to investigate this matter?

[VH-XXX]

I thought you could work on a plane as much as you wanted and pull bits off and on etc, but this aircraft didn't have a maintenance release which I thought made it ok as long as a LAME signs off.

Perhaps the people that I know that have been known to do this, shouldn't be!

[BrokenConrod]

This type of behaviour from the regulator has been rampant for at least the last 20 years, in my experience!

BC :cool:

[Joker 10]

In fact without a maintenance release the aircraft at best was a static exhibit.

So now we cant touch static exhibits ???? That should close all the aviation museums in Australia pretty effectively.

[sms777]

Why do not just put it in a hangar and do whatever you want to it?

[Spotlight]

One of the names mentioned on the CASA side is a person I would happily loan my car to. Ex industry and built up his own Hangar, trained engineers in North China.

Surprised to read this; and the photo versus the statements does seem damming.

I doubt we will see the other side of the story here but giving the benefit of the doubt I am sure there is one.

[Arnold E]

Perhaps as an aircraft owner I need to be elightened here. I would have thought that an aircraft without a current maintenance release had the same status as an empty beer bottle as far as CASA was concerned and therefore I could do more or less what I liked with it, providing it was then inspected by, and signed off by. a LAME. Is this the case or not?? Certainly if the aircraft was not registered then it must surely have the beer bottle status.:confused::confused:

[MonsterC01]

So CASA thinks that everyone who works on the production line at Beechcraft, Cessna, Boeing, airbus etc, etc, fitting parts and carrying out fabrication work on aircraft prior to their cert. and reg. is a fully qualified LAME. No wonder aircraft cost so much!

And of course an apprentice LAME working to gain their qualification in Australia has never touched an aircraft prior to gaining their lic. Another gold effort CASA, you twats.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Good point monster...I have it on impeccable authority from several LAME mates who have visited the factories (Beech/Cessna/Piper) that these aircraft are built by min wage itinerant workers.

The C&%t$ Against Safe Aviation:ugh:

[Grogmonster]

I will bet you that any maintenance hangar in Australia has about 1 licenced engineer to every three workers in the shed that work on aircraft every single day of the year.

[CaptainInsaneO]

I would have to agree with Spotlight here, I have a feeling there is another side to this story.

[Arnold E]

I would think that 1:3 is optomistic in the extreme:sad:

[aroa]

You can rest assured good people, that Paul Phelan would not write such an article without doing his homework first. I sent him the Prosecution brief and my Defense papers... so I can assure you its 24 carat.

I am the horse...this is my mouth. I'll brief as possible. Make of it what you will.

A CASA person makes a bad call, I tell him to Foxtrot Oscar...it was that simple.! But these people are PHDs in turning a mole hill into Mt Everest.!..never mind the costs to the taxpayer, and grief for the indivual.
Its called exercising the Penile Power Muscle.!

The Authority wants to punish me for my language. Since I wouldnt bite on the $550s Penalties, I upset their MO by wanting to be proved guilty or otherwise in a Court of Law.

So my 'crime' needed "sexing up" somewhat, to make it sound more heinous..ie interfering with /removing a primary control surface, no less.

And to make bloody sure, they had to have a good story about what occurred, and besides, according the "investigator... "there are people in CB who think they can make this stick". Get their drift?

So when you get their Sworn statements, which are proveable as technically and physically impossible... I fear the poor dolts have a problem on their hands.
And to further enhance their "expertise" ,illustrated with nice photos clearly showing the elevator, SINGULAR... which has NEVER been off the tailplane.!

No wonder CASA has invoked Drug and Alcohol testing.! WTF were they smoking/snorting on the way to the tarmac.? Must have been something if they could see things that never occurred and an aircraft part that morphed into something else. Or perhaps they were just lying ... and thought they could get away with it.? Or too stupid to realise what they had done.
Whatever.

The wash up is going to "fascinating" for all concerned.!

[tipsy2]

aroa, and anyone else that comes across press stories/first hand info on this apparently disgraceful use of position, please keep us informed on the progress of this matter.

Reminds me of the dill of an AWI that demanded I label the INSIDE of my Airtourer canopy cover "Remove Before Flight" :ugh:

As Jaba said in the opening post, there are some good people in CASA but their good work is too often undone by a few misfits.

tipsy
:yuk:furball:yuk::yuk:

[aseanaero]

Mr Rudd’s lawyer had told him the CASA was prepared to drop the charges if he didn’t seek costs against them. He decided not to spend any more money on the matter, but did not sign any agreement not to pursue CASA for costs.

He had not been told that the case against him had been or would be dropped. It was left to him to visit the Magistrate’s court and obtain a document that recoded that “the defendant entered no plea” and “The Magistrates Court ordered STRUCK OUT.”

However on Sept 14 2008 Mr Rudd filed a complaint against the various officials with CASA’s Industry Complaints Commissioner Michael Hart, alleging criminality in some of the officials’ actions. Mr Hart responded on Dec 19 2008 that he had provided a report on the matter to (then) CASA CEO Bruce Byron, with a recommendation that the matters be referred to the Australian Federal Police, and advising that the matter had in fact been handed over to the AFP.

On Nov 7 2008 Mr Rudd advised Mr Byron that: “I have lodged documents with the Australian Federal Police with a view to Criminal charges being laid against CASA employees, for perjury, conspiring to pervert the course of justice and misfeasance in public office. And they were certainly negligent and failed in their duty of care towards me as CASA ‘client’”
.
On 19 Dec 2008 he received a letter from the AFP which explained that matters referred to the AFP often exceed that organisation’s capacity to investigate. It stated:

The AFP was advised during the evaluation of this matter that your complaint has also been referred to CASA and the AFP has been advised that this matter would not be accepted for further investigation.”



Huh ? So the AFP is not going to investigate this or they are going to follow CASAs investigation brief ?

I'm not a 'CASA basher' , I've never had a problem with them , I even got my PC6 Porter training and endorsement from an examiner that had a few thousand hours on the PC6 (he was ex Army) who went out of his way to do it but I have heard a lot of horror stories like this on the maintenance and operations side 20 yrs ago where things get personal and professionalism goes out the window on both sides. This is a throwback to the days of no accountability for throwing around the weight and power of a large authority.

If government officials are covering each other with sworn statements about things they didn't see or know to be false to prosecute an innocent citizen as payback for some bad langauge this is a serious matter and should be treated like one.

Make sure you don't have a screwdriver or pocket knife in your hand when doing a pre-flight inspection !

.

[coke drinker]

aseanaero....nooooooooooo! I'm going to have to get a new fuel drain. The Civil Aviation Stupidity Association might think I'm going to remove the entire cockpit with the screwdriver end on my fuel drain!

[ZEEBEE]

In fact without a maintenance release the aircraft at best was a static exhibit.

No, not quite.

If the aircraft is on the register, it is deemed that the registered owner has responsibilities to ensure that the law relating to the maintenance of the aircraft is complied with.

If the aircraft is not registered then it is a non entity in the eyes of the law regarding the regulator. (An empty beer bottle as some one has said)
Were someone to fly it, then the Police would have a case that the aircraft was flown unregistered.

The tactics of the investigators is clearly dodgy to say the least but I wonder whether it should ever have got to the point it did.

[Back Pressure]

Maybe those AWI's put together the brilliant plastic calendar which we all use everyday ??

[bushy]

There must be an Ombudsman or someone who can look at this if others will not.
Maybe the press can give the latest developments some publicity.
Or do we just accept that our country is corrupt?

[aseanaero]

Hi Owen,

I have to disagree that Australia is corrupt.

On the World forum Australia is pretty clean and the system works well in 99.9% of cases , there is a published procedure , pricing structure etc.

Try doing business in a developing country in Asia , Africa , South America etc then you'll see how good it is in Oz.

What does exist is 'backing up your mates' and in this case it sounds like some guys backed the wrong horse.

Hi Richard , is this the first time you have had a run in with this particular guy or is this a chapter in an on ongoing feud ? Reading between the lines I reckon there's some history here.

.

[Frank Arouet]

I have had dealings with The Commonwealth Ombudsman V CASA and a tactic of theirs is to get in before you with an "own motion" investigation that somehow shows they are being transparent. It also limits The Ombudsman in his terms of reference.

Any complaint to the Commonwealth Ombudsman usually depends on you suspending other avenues pending the outcome which can take years. (Read above para. Mine took over 12 months). The perpetrators in the meantime drift off into oblivion and as non CASA employees thereafter not subject to internal disciplinary action.

The Ombudsman has terms of reference that enable him to investigate "the" complaint against a Commonwealth entity which in this case should focus on the Commonwealth Police and a separate complaint against CASA. If the complaint is against CASA only, the coppers get off without having to explain themselves.

Put this in the political arena through your local member. This will guarantee someone higher than a Bureaucrat acts on the outcome be it as a sitting member or outraged opposition.

[aroa]

For those that posted, esp Spotlight and Captn IO, and showed an interest in the delightful CASA MO regarding the sorry tail of the Wilga...latest news.

The CASA ICC came to the conclusion that ALL those CASA persons involved be dealt with by the AFP. Prior to his report I had put in my own brief to the AFP for action. Sorry too much: not enough staff and dollars to deal.!
Must have spent it all chasing a Bankcard.

CASAs action to ICC... NIL. Many months later, CASA 2IC, has taxpayer funded "brain-snap" and signs off on ANOTHER (Contracted out) "investigation"... but limited only to the Tarmac Trio... thus protecting the CB office wallies who.."thought they could make this stick".

A couple of months ago I got a whisper that the Comm. Ombudsman had become involved, so I queried this and asked if they could look into why CASA has taken NO action, punitive or legal, against their employees, who have clearly broken the Law, and are still "ops normal" on the public payroll.
Who will be their next victim I wonder?.

Ombudsman is investigating, and to date, have had NO response from CASA because..Dah, dah.!. (trumpets, drum roll!) CASA has bounced it on to the shiny new, CEO inspired, "Ethics & Conduct Committtee". !!

So its the same old, same old.. exactly: the Police "investigating" the Police.

In this day and age Oz Aviation Industry deserves way MUCH better.
But dont hold yr breath.!

[Sunfish]

The thing is, if they are convicted of an offence involving dishonesty, the they are out of a job. Furthermore, how can they take any enforcement action against anybody if they have been convicted of an offence involving dishonesty? How can they even hold an ASIC?

[PLovett]

Ombudsman is investigating, and to date, have had NO response from CASA because..Dah, dah.!. (trumpets, drum roll!) CASA has bounced it on to the shiny new, CEO inspired, "Ethics & Conduct Committtee". !!

Ah...the good old "Lets form a committee" method of delaying a decision. For anyone who thought "Yes Minister" was a comedy then they should realise it was a documentary on how the public service can avoid making a decision.:=

What surprises me is the AFP not getting involved in a case of a public servant misusing their legislatively granted power, committing perjury (it was a sworn affidavit) and conspiring to pervert the course of justice. Perhaps they are still stinging over the spanking they got after the debacle with that doctor on the Gold Coast.:ooh:

[Socket]

If you were wondering what the likely outcome of this will be, read on.

Insults and vilification cowardly - Director

John McCormick, Director of Aviation Safety
The Director of Aviation Safety has hit out at people who insult, denigrate and vilify CASA officers.
John McCormick told a Senate estimates committee hearing last week that self-serving and false attacks on CASA and its officers were wrong and unfair.
He said in some cases these types of attacks on CASA’s people were “downright cowardly”.
The Director said there is a big difference between candid and robust criticism which challenges CASA to lift its game and vindictive public disparagement of individual CASA officers by name and station.
“CASA is certainly no stranger to criticism, complaints and variably informed expressions of dissatisfaction with the things we do and the way we do them from the diverse industry we regulate, amongst others,” the Director told the Senate committee.
“I welcome this, as a responsible director of any regulatory authority should welcome balanced, reasonable and constructive advice about where we may have gone wrong, or where we may at least be seen by some to have gone wrong, or where we might do better.
“Well-meaning criticism can be helpful, even if it is wide of the mark, and it gives us a better understanding of the way our actions are perceived and experienced.
“So let me be clear: I have absolutely no interest in discouraging or dissuading our critics from drawing CASA’s actual or assumed shortcomings to my attention, to the government’s attention, or to the attention of the Australian public.
“As I said, I welcome and embrace this.
“At the same time, however, let me be equally clear in highlighting the very significant difference between candid, robust criticism of CASA’s actions as an organisation and what cannot fairly be characterised as other than mean-spirited, tendentiously self-serving and frequently false accusations about, and the vindictive public disparagement of, individual CASA officers by name and by station.
“This is wrong and unfair and, in some cases, I think it is downright cowardly.
“It does nothing to advance the interests of air safety or organisational improvement, and it almost certainly is not intended to do either.
“If left unaddressed, it impugns the reputations and integrity of committed, capable and professional individuals who are dedicated to the critical, and sometimes thankless, regulatory and other safety related tasks, and it takes a serious toll on the morale of the entire staff in ways that, I dare say, some of those who try to conceal what is often nothing more than demagogic vitriol behind the facade of a pointed revelatory critique could not begin to understand.”

I think its fairly obvious where he stands on the issue of accountability, he welcomes criticism but just dont mention any names or individuals might get upset ( or indeed held to account for breaking the law) and thats just not on, is it.

[Bullethead]

You might find that this person's son 'CASA airworthiness inspector' and this person 'Director of Aviation Safety' were airforce buddies who later both worked for Cx.

[Sunfish]

mean-spirited, tendentiously self-serving and frequently false accusations about,

Perhaps a little contemplation of the Golden Rule might be in order?

[Socket]

Its also worth noting that he was part of the 'Star Chamber' that attempted to assist in the crucification of the 49ers. He is no stranger to dirty backroom dealings and then the coverup and denial of such illegal shennanigans.

If he was such an honest and upright person why didnt he march into that court room and tell the truth, he had YEARS to do just that. He and his ilk had no problems in doing to those unfortunates exactly what he is so loudly complaining about critics of CASA doing now.

Difference being, a court has ruled he and his cronys were in fact LIARS.

He now wont allow his 'boys' face the courts if he can avoid it, chances are VERY good the same sort of result would occur again. The cover ups and obfuscation will continue, count on it.

[Frank Arouet]

"Ethics & Conduct Committtee

Another hurdle to overcome before the Commonwealth Ombudsman can be satisfied that all other means of redress have been tried.

The cover ups and obfuscation will continue, count on it

Wait for the "Own Motion" request by CASA to The Ombudsman with limited terms of reference.

You might find that this person's son 'CASA airworthiness inspector' and this person 'Director of Aviation Safety' were airforce buddies who later both worked for Cx.

:mad:

[aroa]

Just passed the 3rd anniversary of the dirty deed.. thought I'd give all you good folk, and others, an update on proceedings.

Having dealt with the Ombudsman twice and the AFP yet again, the final outcome there is nix, nought, nothing. AFP have a legal out. My plaint as an individual gets a run down their list,.. Case categorization and Prioritization... and drops off the bottom as a no-goer.

And I thought Perjury and Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice was pretty serious stuff, but apparently not,... silly old me to think so.

AFP either too busy or done all their dough on dud phone cards and bike repairs in Israel.

CASA, corruptly in my opinion, changed the thrust of the second external investigation of my allegations of criminality, into one of breach of their Code of Conduct. The 2 surviving AWIs got "administrative sanctions" imposed... but I can't know what that is.!! (Give you a)Serve & Protect (ourselves) is their motto, obviously.

The 4 page letter I got from CASA's shiny, new (Un) Ethical and (Mis) Conduct committee is worthy of a gold medal in bureaucratic obfustication and crappology. And the signatory noted, "signed by direction"... ie under duress. Not the author.
He who is about to get done over in court didnt have the balls to put his name to it.

Following that I sent a circular letter to aviation businesses in FNQ advising them that these people, are still out the and on the job.... and do take precautions so you dont get hit with a similar event.

As a result of that, I received a heavy duty "threat" letter from The Aust Solicitor General. Obviously been briefed untruthfully by CASA...because he stated.." there had been no evidence from any body of criminality".

Hullo ?.... the result of TWO (2) investigations have clearly shown gross wrongdoing and exactly that.
Once apprised of the facts, silence ensured.

After some initial legal advice, I have a couple of other things to follow up and
I intend to keep hammering away.

CASA is a "bureaucracy" (sic) that gives bureaucracy a bad name.
And I sincerely believe that We the people have entered the age of failing/failed? bureaucracies.

I'll keep you posted.

[PA39]

Obsequious.......love it !! :8

[Frank Arouet]

What did Truss say Richard? Will he carry this on if he gets elected?

[Murray Cod]

Is there any history as Aseanaero asks.
"Justice may be blind but she has some very clever listening devices"
MC.

[Ultralights]

and i thought dealing with Military bureaucracy was bad,
i hear today tonight have a thing for CASA.

[aroa]

I have a prior history with CASA from a decade ago... got put out of business, as a photographer /aerial. Can do it ...but not for money. And the CAA act 1988 specifically states CASA is a "safety" regulator, NOT a commercial regulator. But you all know about the appalling Reg environment we have to suffer.

This recent episode... never seen before these 3 AWIs... "Senior", no less and who didnt even know wtf they were looking at.!!!

It was all bull**** revenge theatre because I told the one who had made a bad call to Foxtrot Oscar.
Why do they do it...Because they can.!

CASA has peed away mega taxpayers dollars in the process... but who cares. Efficiency and good goverenance.?? WTFs that?. Not from this mob.
Or the truth either.

[fencehopper]

The CAA played this game and it backfired on them. Anyone ever meet CAA investigator Gerry Commerford? Ex Fed cop. i sat in a wittness box and watched as the beak tore strips off him for lying.
Nothing has changed and never will. Ever.

[aroa]

Frank, I did write to Warren Truss,... as in bridge,girder...then Opposition Transport Shadow (!) Minister. Thought it might have been of political interest etc, (ha ha).
Got a nice letter back after X weeks telling me what a beaut safety record this wonderful country has etc, etc blah, blah.

Should have gone down to the Storey Bridge and banged my head on a steel stanchion, warren truss as in bridge girder. Same result.:mad:

[Frank Arouet]

What about Bob katter. Are you in his electorate?

He would be one of the most powerful people in Australia today and is a good ambassador for GA in the bush.

He may not be in a position to do anything right now, but it will go on record.

PS, send a copy to CASA OLC for their records. It may just put them on edge a bit, given current events.

Cheers mate.

[Ejector]

Map of Bob Katter's electorate.

http://www.bobkatter.com.au/kennedy.pdf

He can be rally suborn and lets say, maybe even 'pig headed' for a cause if he believes in it. I am no fan, but he can really dig in heals in when he wants to.

If he takes your case up of mis justice, it may go somewhere.

[Frank Arouet]

There you go. Looks like you are a constituent of his.

You just may be a very lucky man today.:D

[gobbledock]

Now this I would like to see !!!!!

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/pics/photos/HX4.jpg VS http://monsterhunter.coldfusionvideo.com/ScreamingSkullCover.jpg

[Jabawocky]

He is the minister for Alabama too......:}

That would be fun!

[gobbledock]

He is the minister for Alabama too......http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


He is ? I thought my governor was Bob Riley ?
Oh well, they are both used to livin in a gun totin countrified neck of the woods !!

[Jabawocky]

Same guy I am sure ..... :ok::E

[aroa]

Thanks Frank et al. I'll certainly send him a precis of the sorry saga.

Prob get a better result than from the Leichardt one before. Couldn't do anything because he was on a Transport committee with Anderdumb was the excuse.

Meaning..? the PBI /poor bloody individual/ voter in the electorate not as important as the CB ladder.

One thing about Bob Katter the Hatter... his electorate and voters mean something/ are important to him.

Recent flick passes from various agencies, from one to the next, CMC, ACC AFPSC,give me full on, that bureaucrats sure have the country in a squirrel grip..!! By the nuts.

[aroa]

The Hon R Katter is a very busy man, and I havent had any word back from him as yet.

But...I have been advised by CASA, after my last request for them to sort out with their perjuring staff members,and pay my legal costs... which is a miniscule amount compared with the tens of thousands they have wasted thus far.

These buggers with access to the bottomless taxpayers' pocket don't want to deal, but are now prepared to defend the indefensble... at your expense.

So, dear reader, CASA will happily kiss goodbye to many more tens of thousand of dollars, all because they dont have the will or the balls to admit a mistake.
Its a poker game of the dollars. I'm shuffling my pack.

[gobbledock]

Aroa, you have spent too much time in court facing off with these grubs ? You said the term et al which is a favourite wank word term their 'leagle eagles' use.
I am concerned you may have been CASArised !

[Frank Arouet]

aroa;

Take CASA out of the frame altogether.

Letter to Senator, the Hon Penny Wong, Minister for Finance and Deregulation. Put the government on notice of your legal intents but leave the door open that you may be willing to accept an ex gratia or Act of Grace Payment in lieu of taking the matter further. Include an accrual of interest component and stipulate a reasonable time frame for a response. (Copy of course to Bob Katter).

Nature mostly takes the easiest course. They may admit to a "perceived" injustice.

There is also The Public Interest and Test case Scheme you can avail yourself to via the Lawlink website. A good and funded case may get you a Barrister of the quality of Langmead.

PM me if you want help.

Cheers.

[Jabawocky]

Frank is on the money, and he should know how to help you deal with the guvmint.

Remember, don't through knives when you can chuck spears......and if its going to be a knife fight, take a gun:ok:

Good luck!

[Frank Arouet]

Thanks Jabba.

I have been through the hoops and know how the system malfunctions. Knowing that and Newtons laws, the opposite is definently the means to an end.

Bear in mind, any "win" I had hasn't stopped the rot. The bastards are still in business and they've learn't nothing from the experience.

I wouldn't push too hard on the criminal aspects because they will be backed into a corner and you will force them into defending their stance on defending the indefensible. (I hope that makes sense).

A fiscal win is better than no win at all. But contact Langmead for an appraisal. PM me if you haven't his details.

Cheers again.

[Jabawocky]

When will someone pull together the top half dozen or so folk at CASA, sit them down and give them a stern talking to. They need to understand that some of the crazy things they do cost us excessive amounts of money and we are pi$$ed about it.

Minsister...PM perhaps?

[SgtBundy]

You would think someone like 4 Corners could make a meal out of a story like this.
Something like that popping up in the headlines normally is enough to provoke a reaction out of Canberra.

[Frank Arouet]

CASA tend to use the divisiveness in the Australian Aviation Industry to pick off individuals. We are all outraged at what goes on, but few take them on. Few have any sort of a win and none ever follow through after they have been "appeased" by "lame duck" apologies, out of court settlements and seen CASA slapped with a "recommendation" from The Commonwealth Ombudsman which they then ignore.

Paul Phelan has compiled a massive document, "The Phelan Papers" which document hundreds of examples of CASA misconduct.

Until readers here and elsewhere are prepared to put their name to a legitamate complaint for compilation in such a document, dissect those cases and take combined action under something like the "Public Interests and Test Case Scheme" with a very good team of publically funded lawyers we are all doomed to live in the system we have now.

I will challenge any lawyer who reads PPRune to kick this off with an offer to collate all and any persons legitimate complaint, (perhaps with Phelan), and investigate the possibilities of such a class action and be part of the legal team that can get and maintain the public attention that CASA deserve.

If it were a land rights case by half a dozen (insert creed and colour of your choice here), left handed (insert sexual preferences here), environmentalist, animal rights campaigner, or (insert minority interest group here), it would be in The High Court now.

In the meantime good luck on your individual fights with CASA.

[Rose_Thorns]

BRAVO!!.

Top marks, top logic and right on the old button.

Bravo that man.

[Dangly Bits]

What about a class action?

Can you start a class action for this type of thing?

DB

[tipsy2]

Can you start a class action for this type of thing?


Waste of time DB, CASA have no class what so ever to take any action against.:p

Tipsy
:yuk:furball:yuk::yuk:and another:yuk:

[aroa]

Sorry goobledegook...will make sure to proof read further posts so no legal wankery terms are used.

As for Al... never met him.! Must be some in CASA tho