MCP (Multi crew pilot licence)

[mattyh1986]

What exactly is an MPL ? how does it differ? what are the advantages and disadvantages? is it somthing for the future, is it recommended?

apologises if this has already be answered.

[BSmuppet]

In short, MPL is airline specific. Mostly done in a simulator - you are learning the "specific airline way" from day 1. You get 70-100 hours (depending on the scheme) actually flying. Within the MPL, you also get the Type Rating thrown in because as I said, it is airline specific with that airline's SOPs.

Flybe are the first British Airline to adopt this scheme and I believe they teamed up with FTE and 4 or 6 lucky students have been accepted for this mentored scheme.

Now the biggest disadvantage is that if Flybe suddenly went under (or any airline that has the MPL scheme) you can not just go to another airline. Which is why the Flybe/FTE scheme has a clause that if something goes wrong with the MPL scheme, then FTE will allow the cadets to go straight onto the fATPL course.

Now if everything is fine and you are flying with Flybe on an MPL, then that is great. But if ther airline goes bust or you get made redundant before you reach the magic 1500hrs, then no airline would touch you. Because you do not have a fATPL.

I understand that once you get 1500hrs on an MPL, there is more than just a few CAA forms to fill in to transfer your MPL to a ATPL. I'm happy to be corrected.

Advantage is its cheaper and quicker (12 months and you're in the RHS - again dependant on the scheme).

[Groundloop]

Advantage is its cheaper and quicker (12 months and you're in the RHS

VERY debatable!!!

[BSmuppet]

Believe it or not, it has been advertised - not the Flybe/FTE one.

12-14 months was the target with the TR

The rationale I suppose is that apart from learning their way from the start, it a is a quicker training course (lets say 14months) compared to approx 24 months for a fATPL who then goes onto do a TR. So an airline can adapt to forecasts relatively quicker than before - 14 months.

Compared to getting an unknown pilot who then needs to be trained up to SOPs of the airline plus the aircraft they will be operating.

This is the only reasons I can think of. I mean the fATPL has been around for a while hasn't it?

[BSmuppet]

Matty,

Here is the story of the danish Pilots that I said I would copy and paste:

The world’s first MPL-rated airline pilots are to be laid off this November. Danish carrier Sterling Airlines are dismissing 61 employees as part of cutbacks forced on the carrier due to high fuel prices and the economic downturn, and the MPL-rated pilots will be amongst those to go.

The thirteen MPL pilots are due to finish with Sterling this November and given their training at Danish Center Air Pilot Academy was focused specifically on Sterling Airlines standard operating procedures (SOPs), they may find it hard to find employment elsewhere.

Sterling's chief pilot Claus Gammelgaard told FTN that the dismissal of the MPL pilots was in no way related to their piloting skills, but merely based on their last-in, first-out employment practise. He said that they were "extremely satisfied" with their level of piloting ability, but faced with the need for redundancies Sterling had no option but to dismiss them.

But hopefully all is not lost for these pilots, as according to when they joined the airline (the first started last October) they will have amassed between 500 and 800 hours each on Sterling’s Boeing 737NG fleet by the time they finish. Additionally, Claus told FTN that while the pilot’s training was focused on the airline’s SOPs, they are in turn closely modelled on Boeing’s own, so hopefully other airlines will look favourably on them given the relatively small amount of extra training that will be involved. Due to the constraints of their licence however, which affords them multi-crew piloting privileges in 737NG aircraft only, their employability will be limited to airlines who operate the same aircraft as Sterling and in the current climate it could be some time before they find new positions.

This is the worrying aspect. I would check check and double check everything in the contract if I was going for the MPL. I hope these guys got jobs.

This story was written on August 11 2008

[tropicalfridge]

Its no good, stay away. The scheme hasn't caught on, those in the know are extremely concerned and most doubt it will last the distance. MPLs get very little actual flight time and will most likely be paid very little if they are even offered a job. Those who aren't, will be unemployable elsewhere.

[Groundloop]

MPLs get very little actual flight time

Once again, absolute rubbish being posted as fact!:ugh:

[mattyh1986]

I think a better way of putting it would be that going down the MPL route, there is less actual flying and more SIM time. MPL is focused on Multi Crew so a lot of the solo's and hour building has been stripped out and replaced with training in a SIM environment focused on working as a crew.

[BetpumpS]

Once again paragraphs upon paragraphs.

It is very simple - MPL is/will be great providing you have a GUARANTEE of a job afterwards. And better make sure the airline you will be joining is a pretty stable one.

If you don't have gurantee of a job STAY AWAY! At least for the next few years until ICAO/CAA and bloody EASA sort their lives out and work out a generic MPL that 'will' get you a job with any airline, just like a CPL IR/ME. (providing there are jobs:ok:)

[tropicalfridge]

The MPL seems to bring about 70hrs SEP, so my statement about actual flight time is correct.

The MPL would further de-value the role of the airline Pilot and I think passengers would be horrified if they knew the truth about the guy sitting in the right hand seat taking them on holiday. I hope this never happens.

[Don K]

Hi
Just to clear some things up.
If you have a MPL you are not restricted to a specific airline. I have a MPL(and a CPL), and í'm with my second airline flying on my MPL.
According to JAR-FCL 1. The difference to MPL and CPL are as follows.

CPL
JAR–FCL 1.150 Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. Subject to any other
conditions specified in JARs, the privileges of
the holder of a CPL(A) are to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the
holder of a PPL(A);

(2) act as pilot-in-command or co-pilot
of any aeroplane engaged in operations other
than commercial air transportation;
(3) act as pilot-in-command in
commercial air transportation of any singlepilot
aeroplane;
(4) act as co-pilot in commercial air

transportation

MPL
(a) Privileges. Subject to any other
conditions specified in JARS, the privileges of
the holder of a MPL(A) are to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the
holder of a PPL(A), provided that the

requirements for the PPL*(A) specified
in Subpart C are met.
(2) exercise the privileges of a
CPL(A), provided that the requirements
for the CPL(A) specified in JAR-FCL
1.155(d) are met.
(30 exercise the privileges of the
IR(A) in a single-pilot operation in
aeroplanes, provided that the licence
holder shall have demonstrated an
ability to act as pilot-in-command in a
single-pilot operation exercised solely
by reference to instruments by
completing specific training at the
discretion of the Authority and meeting
the requirements as set out in JAR-FCL
1.210. The Authority may be guided as
to the credits to be granted on the basis
of a recommendation from a FTO;
(4) exercise the privileges of the
IR(A) in an aeroplane required to be
operated with a co-pilot; and
(5) act as co-pilot in an aeroplane

required to be operated with a co-pilot.

So basically you are not allowed to fly single pilot in commercial aviation without fulfilling the demands for the CPL. (or PPL for private flying)

tropicalfridge
Compared to another lowtimer, what do you think pax would prefer. The guy with 20 hours of MCC + 40TR hours(around 260 total with 60MCC) or the guy with 60MCC and 60TR hours? (240 total with at least 120 MCC).
Just a question?
Please don't compare new MPL pilots with experienced CPL pilots.

Kind Regards
Don K

[BetpumpS]

Don,

are you one of Danes that got shafted as per the news report? If so, congratulations on getting employment afterwards.

I guess no institution would ever compromise safety so I wouldn't go as far as to call the MPL Mickey Mouse.

However,

the amount of flying you get with fATPL is invaluable. The decisions/fear you go through during 100 odd hours of flight building and the confidence you gain afterwards is priceless.

I know this will cause a big divide but I would not have the confidence in my right hand man who has only flown for 70 hours. Regardless if he/she has 500 hours in a sim and knew how to operate the FMC with their eyes closed.

The feeling of inertia is something you can never simulate. I spent 2 years flying in SE Asia experiencing windshear in a crappy old 737-200. And I can honestly say hand on heart that my real life experiences during the fATPL made me feel confident when I completed my first few landings in atrocious weather on the 732. I would not hand over control in those conditions to a new MPL pilot.

[TheBeak]

Compared to another lowtimer, what do you think pax would prefer. The guy with 20 hours of MCC + 40TR hours(around 260 total with 60MCC) or the guy with 60MCC and 60TR hours? (240 total with at least 120 MCC).
Just a question?
Please don't compare new MPL pilots with experienced CPL pilots.



I think that if the passenger really knew what they were talking about they would prefer the fATPL over the MPL without question. Real experience is priceless. TR sims are very good and incredibly real but they are just 'enough' to allow someone to go on and learn on the job. Real experience is priceless.

You ask a passenger what they would prefer, someone with a whole load of simulator time and very little time in an actual aeroplane OR someone who has done all their training up to IR in an real aeroplane,with real weather, real problems and real environmental stressors (i.e. noise, sunshine, smell, vibration, time constraints).

[Groundloop]

The MPL seems to bring about 70hrs SEP, so my statement about actual flight time is correct.


Depends on the particular MPL - they are not all the same. The Flybe/FTE MPL will have quite a bit more than the theoretical minimum actual flight time because Flybe want it that way!

[tropicalfridge]

Don, I understand your point, but I think the public would prefer that guy with some airtime as opposed to the one with lot of simtime. Not many airlines hiring the 250hrs F/ATPLs anymore, these guys will for the next few years need to go through turbo props before getting into jets. The MPLs will be straight in there, in theory.

[Steamhead]

As I remember this was pushed for by South Africa and Germany for their national airlines, both of which train their own pilots and have done so for a long time. I would love to see some price comparisons for the two systems.
After 6 months in the right hand seat of ryanair I estimate the person has possibly spent about £120,000.