T38 bags an F22... or does it?

[Yeoman_dai]

Defense Tech: Trainer Shoots Down F-22 or What? (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004807.html#comments)

What do the learned (and not so learn-ed) chaps and chappesses on this forum think? Hoax or true 'kill'?

[kluge]

Per the reference: "Your are either absurdly lucky or insanely skilled." - HUD or not.

[kbrockman]

I don't see why it shouldn't be true.
T-38's ,in this role, are usually flown by experienced instructors and used for combat training purposes.
The Raptor pilot is probably a newbie (yes they put inexperienced pilots in the F22 too) and still needs to learn how to use the full potential of his new horse.

BTW, back in the days where the Eagle was the new wondertoy it was also beaten by more experienced pilots flying old steamboating Phantoms.
IIRC the Rafale or EF also got defeated by a supposedly inferior JAGUAR pilot from the Adla not too long ago.

Last but not least , the F5/T38 isn't exactly a slough when it comes to close combat , roll rate is something like 720°/sec if memory serves me right and ,like the good old MiG21, it is a damned small target if you have to look for it when going 600MPH.

[soddim]

Far too much journalistic license here. T-38 never had a HUD and F-22 pilot would have to be out to lunch to be in a visual engagement with one.

However, the aircraft is only as good as the pilot who flies it - UAVs excepted of course.

[herkman]

No stranger that the RAAF Wirraway shooting down a Jap Zero during WW2.

Just in the right place at the right time.

Regards

Col

[L J R]

There are set up events. limitations and restrictions in some training scenarios and events, who is to say that either aircraft was restricted or advantaged in a particular way for some training, currency, syllabi etc....

[120class]

No HUD in a T38A...True

However, the present T38C does have a HUD.

;)

[GreenKnight121]

Factsheets : T-38 Talon : T-38 Talon (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=126)

http://www.af.mil/shared/images/aflink_new.jpg

The T-38C incorporates a "glass cockpit" with integrated avionics displays, head-up display and an electronic "no drop bomb" scoring system.
.....
Air Education and Training Command uses the T-38C to prepare pilots for front-line fighter and bomber aircraft such as the F-15E Strike Eagle, F-15C Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, B-1B Lancer, A-10 Thunderbolt and F-22 Raptor.
Training Aircraft (http://uscockpits.com/Trainers/Trainers.html#T38) T-38C cockpit photo:
http://uscockpits.com/Trainers/T-38C%20Talon.jpg

[galaxy flyer]

As my RTU instructor said, "I don't care how good the T-38 is, it ain't gotta a gun, so it doesn't shoot down anyone."

GF

That was North American F-100 RTU, 4 guns, no rotating beacon!

[stepwilk]

Flight International seems to have recently confirmed the kill and says the -38 was being flown by an experienced F-22 pilot.

[galaxy flyer]

It's all photography!!

GF

[West Coast]

Up yours Bob Gates
love
USAF

I bet the clip is clandestinely being shown to Senators and Representatives in an end around of the SecDef for additional aircraft. The USAF will soon be calling the Indian AF for another go at it as well.

[trap one]

Herkman, for me you got the point in 1. Yes a multi Million jet can be shot down by a "trainer" or much less capable aircraft. Especially if the F22 pilot doesn't know the threat is there. I've controlled many engagements and been to the debrief where the current "Top Jet" has been killed by a much less capable jet. Including an F15C in Alaska by an A10, also F15C's in UK by Hawks and an F3 with a U/S radar.
:ok:

[GreenKnight121]

Or the USAF F-16s in the late 1980s by USMC AH-1Ws with AIM-9s?

The Marine Super Cobras just dropped down into ravines and behind small hills and waited for the Zoomies to blunder along.

[Double Zero]

Wasn't there a case ( on exercise of course ) when a Nimrod - just after the Falklands, when the RAF were nailing AIM9L's onto just about anything - was overtaken by a couple of Tornado's which it promptly locked up and theoretically shot down ?

Of course we'll skip over the fact they were behind the Nimrod to begin with...