Thank You ATP!

[kangy]

Just wanted to say a big thank you to ATP and in particular to Capt. J Curd for coming up with the goods...

Thanks to their involvement ATP have got me my first job, just as was promised. ATP came under a lot of fire from others in previous posts but they have delivered on their promise to me & yes I'm over the moon!

I'd like to say that even in these really difficult times ATP still kept our best interests in mind and never stopped trying so a massive THANK YOU to all that were invloved!

:D:D:D:D:):):):):D:D:D:D

[tony2F]

Congrats great to hear some good news in the doom and gloom..... Well done and enjoy.

:ok:

[farfadet]

Sorry for this stupid question, but... what is ATP?

Anyway, congratulations ! :ok:

[Wannabe24]

Please don't make it sound like ATP got you your 6 month contract with EZ because they didn't. They are now despised within EZ and outside. No one remotely involved with recruitment would conscientiously work with them to get cadets paid long term contracts. The relationship went sour months ago and we know that!

What got you your contract was good timing and the fact that you know the EZ operation due to your 3 months paid line training and possibly that you impressed someone working with recruitment. ATP have told many lies, I’m still waiting to meet the 20 people JC told my batch (on assessment day) were already flying with Air Arabia and Qatar. :rolleyes:

I am genuinely happy for you and of course without dealing with ATP you wouldn't be in this position, so I can understand your praises for them but I and many others have heard the bull**** straight from the bull's mouth and I'm still losing sleep over it. Sorry.

[BSmuppet]

Deary Me,

talk about plain advertising by staff:D

This stuff should be banned.:=

[g1344304]

Congrats mate. I take it we are talking about CTC ATP? What is the deal with the holding pool at the minute? How long did you have to wait after completing the program until you got this job?

[quant]

I take it we are talking about CTC ATP?

I don't believe he is.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/357880-atp-scheme-easyjet-bmi.html

[BSmuppet]

I have a read a variety of threads on this scam :oh: scheme sorry.

And (I don't know if this is fact) NO ONE has ever gained full time employment from it.

Could the reason be that paying 36K (especially now) isn't exactly a good command decision and the recruitment team for the airline know this?

[quant]

And (I don't know if this is fact) NO ONE has ever gained full time employment from iti believe epsilonvaz has (correct me if i'm wrong)

[BSmuppet]

At least that's one!

Without getting into a big argument...

even when the market picks up, if you was an integrated student who started in 2009, late 2008, would you ever get hired?

Surely not a good command decision when the odds/risks are stacked up against you?

Likewise those who bought a 737/A320 TR (not affiliated to a Ryanair for example) would not have been a sound decision either?

[kangy]

BS Muppet -
You'll be pretty peeved to hear I'm not staff, just someone who took a big risk, worked really hard at my training, and is now very luckily employed thanks to a few guys I am very thankful to.

A number of guys from ATP have also been hired much to your dismay, and if they are all ghosts or figments of my imagination, I must have drank about 20 pints and eaten 10 curries all by my own fat self only a few hours ago for a celebration lol.:ok:

I'm sorry but it really sounds like you're not happy for other guys getting jobs in these really difficult times, I took the risk (not you), I payed my own money (not you), I put the sweat into it (not you), and I'm the one thats thankful to the people and the outcome (very obviously not you).

So I say again, to all that were invloved - a MASSIVE thank you!

[barista]

So you gave them cash and buyed your job and you THANK them? Man, do you kiss the chekout lady at the suppermarket ever week?

When are peple going to learn that we are cutting off our own legs in this industry? (I nearly wrote proffesion but that dont fit any more).

[quant]

I'm sorry but it really sounds like you're not happy for other guys getting jobs in these really difficult times, I took the risk (not you), I payed my own money (not you), I put the sweat into it (not you), and I'm the one thats thankful to the people and the outcome (very obviously not you).

So I say again, to all that were invloved - a MASSIVE thank you!Kangy it can also be argued that by paying for such a scheme you are ruining it for other wannabes :( and damaging the general T&C's for other pilots but it does seem that's where the industry is headed :hmm:

anyhow Kangy well done and good luck ;)

[kangy]

Barista - this goes back to the old argument of paying for a TR or not paying for a TR. Its been going on for years like it or not, just look at Ryanair (yup you pay for your TR), CTC (yup you pay for your TR), Thomas Cook (yup you pay for your TR) and a number of other schemes, so please dont blame me for years of other people doing this which has led to airlines not bothering to even reply to guys who apply without a TR (I sat at home and did this for quite a while, and soon realised there wasn't really much of an option if I wanted a job).
What other choice do I have? Sit at home and put food on the table with the moral high ground after already investing thousands?

The airlines have realised that people will pay for their own TR so why would the airline pay? Blame those money managers that have come to these conclusions after years of other people paying!

Thanks for your well wishes quant, and at least you have a realistic view on things - you can see where the airlines have headed a long time ago, who can blame them? In this day and age of LoCo's, they are saving money every possible way - did you hear about Ryanair wanting to charge pax for using the loo?!!

Anyways, this will be my last post on this godforsaken website. I'm glad of the choices I've made, I just wish people would start seeing the whole of the story, not just the little bits they can be really negative on and to simply have a moan.

Kangy

[Bambe]

Well, if you're happy that's fine. I would feel pretty miserable thinking of the incredible amount of money I put only to get a job... for Air Arabia on the top!!!!!!!!
I think we all leave you this job.

These guys from ATP who litteraly stole your money must laugh reading your thanksfullness post.
Enjoy your 150 000 pounds position!

[ElitePilot]

Kangy is it a permanent position or summer contract? Congrats all the same.

[quant]

Kangy is it a permanent position or summer contract? Congrats all the same.It'll be a 6 month contract....

did you hear about Ryanair wanting to charge pax for using the loo?!!lol yeah i did :uhoh: i'm glad they didn't seriously take on the idea of a fat tax either ;)

Kangy are you on the A319 or A320?

[BSmuppet]

Kangy,

calm down.

I apologise for my first post. The way it was written was truly like the adverts you get for scams and get-rich-quick schemes. A person has been banned from here- G-AITB - or something like that because the post started off with "Just like you, I had trouble with my finances...". etc.

I certainly don't want to rain on your parade. However there are some points that need to be made. Firstly, I doubt if anyone at ATP is going to print out your thank-you note and stick it on their wall like a paediatrician would do with a letter form a mum whose son they helped.

They got your money regardless if they got you a job or not. Which is why my cynicism when it came to your "Thank-you" speech. They don't care.

What happened to good old-fashioned start at the bottom crop spraying and working your way up to the shiny jet? Its schemes (excellent word) like this that are eroding present pilots' T&Cs because they know there is someone behind them willing to grab their place by paying for the TR themselves and working for peanuts.

Congratulations on getting the job.

[Abu Bebo]

Seriously, if anyone knows of any UK crop-spraying job but considers it beneath them, PM me, I mean, seriously.

AB

[BSmuppet]

The majority seems to want to get into a shiny jet ASAP - sorry but that is not flying!

Why the rush? Work your way up and get priceless experience flying all types in all weather.

Of course, people would say that they need a good paying flying career to start paying off loans. Well WTF did you have to get into such debt? What was wrong with modular?-paying as you fly? And working at the same time gaining social skills and maturity!!

I'm going to sound like a broken record here but it is this "rush" to pull on a uniform, shag a hostess and fly an airliner which has caused T&Cs to erode.

WTFing rush?

I will NEVER prostitute myself by paying for a TR. Even in the recession. If it means I spend 5 years spending thousands of pounds per year to keep current before I even get a job towing gliders then so be it.

[Zippy Monster]

Seriously, if anyone knows of any UK crop-spraying job but considers it beneath them...

Does anyone know of many UK crop-spraying jobs at all?!!

Sorry for the complete thread creep here, but why do the "go modular" brigade seem to assume that these GA jobs are so easy to come by? When I went through my training there were far more jobs going on passenger jets than there were dropping parachutes or taking aerial photography!

I'm going to sound like a broken record here

You do. Do us all a favour and change it! :E

Back on topic... Kangy, well done on getting your job, whether it's a summer contract or a permanent position (I suspect the former if it's UK based, but I don't know). Why the public gushing praise and a*se-kissing though? So you got a job - the course therefore did for you what it advertised. You don't see grads of other schools coming on here worshipping their FTO CEOs as heroes just because their courses did what they said on the tin... what makes this one so special?

[BSmuppet]

Zippy,

this isn't even a thread where one can "get back on topic". It was a nonsensical post saying "thank you!" Who cares? Its like coming on pprune and saying "I passed Gen Nav - thanks BGS". Who cares? - hence why I thought it was a spam-mail post.

However this post did go on tangents depending on who posted a reply.

Now its obvious that you have the blinkers on because you are reading what you want to read and not taking the general point of my posts and others who are appalled at the state of what is happening to the industry.

If there were more airline jobs than GA jobs when you were training is neither here nor there. The point is there are no jobs at at present for 250hr cadets! Unless you buy a job!

I sincerely hope you are not a pilot in an airline that has/will adopt a scheme where you will get the boot because someone behind you will accept a lower hourly rate than you. I really mean that.

[portsharbourflyer]

Off the original thread, but aerial crop spraying in the UK was closed off by the environmental lobby, use to be a big crop spary scene in East Anglia in the seventies and eighties.

Secondly crop spraying is a high risk GA activity and most crop spray firms cannot insure anyone with less than a 1000 hours, therefore it is not a option of a low hour pilot to hour build.

[BSmuppet]

Lets not get hung up on the Crop spaying example please:ugh:. I used that as a loose GA job. I could have chosen flying in africa, towing gliders, or whatever.

It was just emphasising a point that one should not be embarassed starting right at the bottom - an aviation job that isn't really going to get you laid with the tart at the bar which some people seem to care about.

That way, airlines wouldn't be inundated with 250hr cadets happy to give them 30K.

[clanger32]

Have to say BSMuppet, I actually agree with the general jist of the point [I think] you're trying to make here. Nothing wrong with starting at the bottom at all.
My only caveat is that there's an awful lot of dreamers out there [not to say you're one, btw...talking generically!] who make comments such as "I don't care about salary, I just want to fly". Which is all well and good, except that at some point every job (IIRC, you're a professional footballer?) becomes "just a job" - even if you accept you're bloody lucky to have that "just a job" and hundreds of others would kill for it. And when you hit this point, then you do care - you care very greatly - about the money. And £15k a year (as a PPL Instructor) isn't going to buy you any kind of roof these days. It's not going to buy you a car worth mentioning. It's not going to buy you a nice holiday....So THERE is the "rush" to the jet jobs. Because that's where the money is. It's not always all about loan repayments, it's about having ANY kind of lifestyle, which sadly, GA flying generally won't provide.

FWIW, totally agree on the "work for a couple of years" point. I think the industry would be far better off if more people did this.

I don't agree with "buying a job" line training schemes....but I won't criticise anyone for taking the opportunities open to them to advance themselves...

[BSmuppet]

fair point.

[EpsilonVaz]

Just to correct a previous poster: I am on a 6 month contract, not perminant.

Regards,
EpsilonVaz

[EK4457]

C'mon Kangy - leave the spin at the TRTO and tell it how it is.

Assumption number one:

Since you refuse to let on to what type of contract you have, I'll assume it is a 6 month temp like all of the other ATP 'grads'.

Assumption number two:

It costs around £35,000 for the course.

With these in mind it is not difficult for the average person to see the course for what it is; a pay to fly scheme.

When you consider an A320 TR should cost you at worst £20,000 to £25,000, you have paid over £10k for the pleasure of your temp contract.

Even if the numbers are not quite right, they will not be a million miles away.

Now, for me the crux of the matter is this; if you set out to acheive this from the begining and were clearly told that this was the aim of the scheme then fine. Congratulations - you have every right to be happy.

If you thought you'd be on a 'proper' contract earning circa £30,000 per annum (roughly the going rate) then you will be very disappointed.

What I am uneasy with is your limitless and lavish praise for getting the very least one would expect from such a large outlay. I also think that you have tried to let on that you have got a better deal than you actually did. You refuse to give any details about your contract, employer, salary or conditions of employment. This arouses suspicions on all sorts of levels and gives desperate wannabes a very unbalanced view of this sort of scheme. Not cool. There is nothing wrong with telling it how it is.

It is ridiculous to blame you for the state of the piloting profession. You are doing what you think is best for yourself. If you paid your money and got what you wanted then good luck. Just don't try and spin/brown nose yourself into a permanent contract. You are fooling nobody.

You get what you pay for.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

You don't get 'owt for nowt.

Etc etc....

Enjoy your flying.

EK

[Sciolistes]

You get what you pay for.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

You don't get 'owt for nowt.
Or alternatively:

"They get what you pay for?"

"You pays your money they makes your choice"

"They get a lot for nowt."

Seriously, separating the TR from the line training, I suspect the reality is that one way or another all zero experience CPL/IRs pay for their TR, just not necessarily up front. Personally I have no real issues with that, especially considering how much it must have cost under the old JAA self improver path. For me the issue is paying for line training.

People shouldn't justify paying to perform revenue earning work, that's what it is. Cue Monty Python!

Saying that, if I were desperate enough...who knows.

[quant]

suspect the reality is that one way or another all zero experience CPL/IRs pay for their TR

Yup, totally agree with that. If airlines bonded people for x years whilst they worked off the cost of TR/line training this would be much more fruitful then asking people to pay up front.

In early 2011 the airline that i work for that has never employed low hours guys will lauch a scheme on the above premise. :8

[Flaps up no lights]

Hey Kangy well done mate :ok:.

Having known this guy for years he completely deserves a break and will be a total asset for the industry:D

Like so many modular wannabes we had been over looked by recruiters for years, because we did not attend a 70k one stop training provider. Instead as like many other modular guys and girls we earnt as we gained the licences, rather than mummy and daddy paying (accepted not all integrated have a silver spoon in their mouth). And we built life experience and interpersonal skills by having jobs to pay for the FATPL.

The total spend for me was approx 70k all license issues, 73 type with 357hrs on type. Now I have a full time position in the uk earning 42k plus perdiems and sector pay. Both kangy and I spent years getting to this position, working hard to achieve our goals.

Bsmuppet it is cheaper to hour build in a 320/73 than a GA aircraft, including typrating and line flying it breaks down to about £100 an hour depending which route you go down. And far more relevant to the career you are trying to get in to, than flying around in a 152. ( I spent a summer doing aerial photography with close to 500hrs still no interview 2005). It was a no brainer type rating equaled interviews.

OK time for some controversy... soon it is my prediction the only way you will get to an airline is with an MPL as a wanabe... :mad:

Discuss:)

[BSmuppet]

soon it is my prediction the only way you will get to an airline is with an MPL as a wanabe

Sure lets discuss.

People will embark on an MPL if it is attached to a job at the end of it (as we all know the limitation of the MPL is airline SOP specific). Flybe have started the ball rolling with 4/6 cadets on the first MPL course in the UK. I believe they have started the second as well - the selection stage that is.

"Soon" is a very long way of the mark. Can't really see many airlines investing money in a "mentorship/sponsorship" scheme with the current crisis and with 1000s of fully qualified pilots flipping burgers.

Can you imagine M'OL starting up an MPL scheme with an FTO (I.e Ryanair/FTE) and giving 20K to 400 cadets per year! -thats £8m! Remember there needs to be that guarantee of a job or no one would embark on an MPL! You'd be foolish to.

[Gary Lager]

Bsmuppet it is cheaper to hour build in a 320/73 than a GA aircraft,

That is possibly the most perverse thing I have ever read on PPRuNe! What is the point of hour building if you never get a paid job at the end of it, because all the FO positions are taken up with people 'hour-building'? Lunatic.

[BSmuppet]

Exactly Xulu,

That's why I thought the OP was spam.

"You're Dodgy" - love it! lol