Flight Instructing in the UK

[ATPMBA]

How many hours do you helicopter flight instruct in a calendar year at a PPL school in the UK. Are there any months where the weather does keeps the hours down?

[Camp Freddie]

well thats like saying how long is a piece of string, it depends on many factors i.e. your position in the food chain, how busy the school is, how long are the opening hours of the airfield, and what the weather is like.

my own experience was that shortly after the millenium, I did as much as 75 hours a month in june, july august, which could fall to 15 in december, january.

but i suspect peoples personal experiences vary greatly.

regards

CF

[heli-man]

I'd say... full-time, a yearly average would be 500 hours.

[tony 1969]

I'd agree with heli-man, unfortunately in the "current climate" I am afraid to say HALF that is more realistic :ugh::{

[2001ft]

Do FI's usually get paid by the hours flown or a basic + hours flown (so there is damage limitation in winter months?)

Appreciate it will vary by school, but what is the average?

[heli-man]

£45-£50 per FLIGHT hour. Maybe get a little bit for groundschool/briefings, but unlikely.

You might get a small monthly retainer (£200 per month?), but for that you will probably have to be there 8am-6pm everyday, regardless of if you are flying or not, to wash helicopters/answer phones/do paperwork/drum up business/push aircraft around/insert detail of exploitative task here.

[Camp Freddie]

I agree with heli-man that 500 hours constitute "full time" and also with tony1969 that in the current climate that would be a good figure.

back then I got £40 per hour flight pay only no basic, and I am told the current equivalent is £45-£50.

we are not talking a proper salary here, 500 hours is actually far more tiring and time hungry (did i mention you can kiss all your weekends goodbye) than 500 north sea hours, simply due to the number of rotations, with each flight being an avergage of probably 0.8

£25k if you work like a dog i reckon, what a rubbish industry and fixed wing is way worse for instructing.

CF

[2001ft]

That is seriously pants - no wonder so many FI's end up doing part time painting / plumbing and anything else they can get their hands on......:ugh:

[WylieCoyote]

Back in the day I did manage 700hrs one year! Average was more like 500 though, the most I could earn was £50 p/h but that was only for Commercial courses the rest of the time it was £40 and I think that it is still representative today.
I agree with Freddie you'll always be at work, days off were when the weather was poor,but it basically had to be on the deck not to be able to something. It was hard work but I was glad of it and wanted to do the hours. If I hadn't then I'm sure I wouldn't have got into the so called 'proper job'.
I would say £25 - £30ish K would be fair for an average amount of Instructional work, to earn more you'd need to be an examiner! They rake it in!;)

August was always poor, everyone on holiday, Jan and Feb the weather and Skiing holidays also slowed things down a bit.

[Up & Away]

This Examiner who does not 'rake it in' was told by client that a school up North has been able to recruit a 'I'll fly for hours only' Instructor.
Can anyone verify ??
Sad day if true that a school has such a downturn it has to run on 'charity'
On a separate note what should an Examiner charge?

[WylieCoyote]

Up and Away,

How far north are you talking?
If someone is working for nowt then he's doing nobody any favours least of all himself and if your asking how much for an examiner, then that's probably why your not 'raking it in', as for how much you should be charging I have no idea as I never reached the lofty heights of examiner, but I will try and find out from some of my richer friends who did...how's that?;)

[Up & Away]

Have been updated: told he is only flying for nowt at the moment to pay back costs. That sounds better:rolleyes:

[misterbonkers]

thats what I did. Its a sensible way to get your ticket without forking out a load of brass up front.

what sort of numbers of tests do examiners do each year?

[MartinCh]

anyone dares to PM me where one could get FI(H) rating paid for by future instructing at that said school? That sounds great for someone completely broke, having used up all the possible loans and own savings etc. I'm far from having finished, but it'd be nice to know.

[WylieCoyote]

Up and Away,

I've been informed that the fee is £200 per test for an FE.

[heli-man]

I think you need 1,000 hours to be an FE, and you also need to be approved by the CAA and the school needs to "apply" to the CAA and justify why they need you as an FE. If there are already FEs in that area, then you might not get it.

[Barndweller]

Out of curiosity - Do FI's who are paid by the flying hour get anything for hours when their students fly solo and they are still required to supervise / be responsible for them? (Getting ready to be laughed at for asking such a stupid question and suspect i know what the answer will be).

[VeeAny]

I seem to recall its not the school who applies its the potential examiner, if the geographical need cannot be satisified just ask for somewhere else.

Bardweller

I always was, why would you not be ? The guy is flying with your approval and its you who will be examined if anything should happen to him or her ?

GS

[heli-man]

Yes, you get paid when you send a student solo. BUT... it varies from school to school. For instance.. Cabair pay their FIs £10 per hour when they send a student solo (yet they charge the student full dual rate), and Cabair pay their FIs £5.73 (minimum wage) for groundschool.

[Torquetalk]

Shame on them.

But then if they find highly skilled staff willing to work for such laughable remuneration...

TT

[heli-man]

Yes, it's a joke. But there is always someone who is willing to work for peanuts to get hours or put up with cr*p to get a sniff of some turbine work. And there is always the FI who lives 2 minutes away from the school who doesn't want to move anywhere else, etc.

[choppertop]

Guys, try office or shop work, if you think you'd be any happier! I've done it. Low salary weekend-only flying job, please...

[Whirlybird]

I've aways been paid full rate (still £40/hour where I am) if one of my students was flying solo. You may also get paid a little bit if you're a QHI supervising a restricted FI - about £10 per hour. This can up your hourly rate a bit. However, that hardly adds up to anything regular, or never has for me.

Having tried both, I'd say instructing is a great part time job so long as you have a second string to your bow, but a lousy (and totally knackering) way to try to make a living...unless you're extremely lucky.

[Flap-Back]

Over 600 hours in my first year as an FI, including in excess of 60 hours per month for the last 4 months - pretty good for the winter months and in these tough times as well. I would argue with anyone who suggests you cannot make a career out of instructing. I have found it exceptionally fulfilling and enjoyable.

FB

[kneedwondean]

Same here, 500hrs in my first year of instructing. Its a fine way to earn a living, and I get charter mixed in with that. I do spend lots of time travelling about the country though, but I am flying for a living and that suits me just fine

[Camp Freddie]

my own experience is that when you first instruct its great, being paid to fly for a living, it feels like the best job in the world.

but somewhere around 1000 hours instruction it does start to do your head in and can feel mundane with the endless cycles of flights last just about 1 hour, and you start to resent working so hard for such unpredictable but never high returns

you give so much of yourself and sometimes get so little back, as a full time job i dont think its good and agree with whirlybird that as an add on to something else, whether that be charter or some other flying job or even something non-aviation its fine.

CF

[flap flap flap]

I completely agree. Instructing is fun at first, but it grinds you down as you approach 1,000 hours, then you realise you are never going to be able to have a decent quality of life on £25,000 a year, let alone pay any debts off. You will also realise that once you get 500-1000 piston hours, any more is a waste of time. No-one in the industry gives a t*ss about how many you've got.

Instructing can be great fun, but unless it's mixed in with charter/other work, it's a hobby that pays a little bit.

No holidays, no pension, always working weekends, no security, endless 0.5 hour trial lessons, always knackered, weather cancellations etc.

Sorry to be so negative, the industry shouldn't be like that, but it is.

[MartinCh]

Hello. I don't want to start new thread just for this, but, would any UK heli FTO consider JAA CPL as enough for 'introductory flights'? As a way of random slow way to help out struggling grads who'd be broke, with some loans, only going to get another loan (if) for FI rating later on once eligible according to JAA FCL rules to start FI rating..

Should I presume that FTOs want potential PPL students to fly with instructor so it's loggable as dual towards PPL? Or insurance. Or simply assigning instructors to these as they're in need of some cash and TT/PIC hours anyway (the words of 'endless stream of .5 intros brings this whole question as I've seen the instructor's face when he was told to do .3ish intro)

I know it's very slim chance, but this seriously puts me off from actually trying to achieve things and get a job in the UK flying helis (I will succeed eventually somewhere, but..). Things aren't getting easier regarding training and further instructing in the US either and most other countries abroad are not worth thinking of for starters either..

On topic: Yeah, I'm just 'modular of a decade (long)' kind of student, but if given choice of buzzing around pattern, doing autos and couple XC flights mostly/only in R22 on wages not so great (whatever satisfaction it brings from teaching) and flying beautiful bigger helicopters on double, triple or later bigger multiple of the current earnings, it's kinda no-brainer for most. Plus, there's the own family support and loans factor as well.

[Camp Freddie]

MartinCh,

I may be looking at this too simply but if you are doing an "introductory flight" it is either a trial lesson or it isnt.

if it is a trial lesson you need an FI rating, if it isnt a trial lesson then its a commercial flight and you would need to fly for AOC holder and have OPC + line check etc.

as far as I know thats it or am i missing something?

CF

[Whirlybird]

MartinCh,

I'm certain Camp Freddie is right...well, he should be; he's been in this industry far longer than I have. Interestingly, this came up for me quite recently. I was asked to take someone for a flight in a privately owned helicopter, as the owner couldn't do it. Although I have an FI rating, the machine wasn't on a licensed airfield; therefore this couldn't be a trial lesson. And although I have a CPL, I couldn't be paid for it, as it wasn't being done under an AOC ( and I'm too old anyway). Therefore I could only take her up as any ordinary PPL would do - for free. Weird thing, Air Law.

Back on topic...I instructed fulltime for a while, and absolutely loved it. Then we had a hard winter, and I watched all the money I'd earned dwindle. I also I began to see the downsides - unpredictable work and pay, never having weekends off, no social life. I'd turned my hobby into a job, and it was beginning to be just that - a job. And it took me less than 1000 hours actually. But then, I always did get bored quickly!

Finally I switched to part time, and the magic started to come back. I now thoroughly enjoy it again, and if we get rained off or have no students, I have another way of earning a living. If I was younger I'd be planning to move on to commericial flying to get a different challenge, but the CAA in their great wisdom says I'm too old, so flying-wise this is a dead end for me. :{ I don't really care; I have other things going on in my life. I decided fairly late in life that I wanted to be an instructor, despite people telling me I was mad and would never do it - well, I did, and I enjoyed it. :ok:

Of course, everyone's different. If I had my time over again I wouldn't do anything any differently anyway....I had a fantastic few years, and still enjoy what I do. Just don't expect things never to change.

[VeeAny]

And although I have a CPL, I couldn't be paid for it, as it wasn't being done under an AOC ( and I'm too old anyway).

In pantomime style, "Oh yes you could."

How do you think corporate operations work ?

Private individual or company owned aircraft with commercial pilot in the front, usually have no connection to an AOC.

The owner or operator could pay you to fly his aircraft.

[Whirlygig]

And although I have a CPL, I couldn't be paid for it, as it wasn't being done under an AOC.
Is this right? What about the many private owners who have chauffeurs, sorry, pilots and who take passengers? Does JCB have an AOC? Or The Queen?

I think it's also to do with whether the passenger is paying for his flight.

Cheers

Whirls

[jeepys]

JCB does not operate under an AOC. The pilots are well paid but all the passengers are non payers. It's perfectly legal.

[MartinCh]

Well, I'm not sure how often or how much flying (and not 'based' all around the UK) could be done as paid or unpaid chauffeur of R44 owner. I doubt owners of turbine choppers would want fresh CPL fly them. Then there's my feeling that R44 owners would be pilots themselves - I guess most of them.

I try, but after my studies and bit more of saving, I can't see myself willing to 'waste' yet another few years not flying much. Hence me going to do some planks flying as well (to keep me sane).