Some Very Disappointed Young Slf

[frequentflyer2]

Click on this link to read the full story of how some children, one suffering from a serious medical condition, were badly let down by the non-operation of a Ryanair flight from BHD to STN

FLIGHT DELAY RUINS BIG DAY IN LONDON FOR LISBURN CHILDREN - Lisburn Today (http://www.lisburntoday.co.uk/news/FLIGHT-DELAY-RUINS-BIG-DAY.5177625.jp)

Heartbreaking for them and heartbreaking for the parents who had to cope with their disappointment.

Now, I know these things can happen - although they shouldn't - but obviously with a delay of this length there's potential for more serious problems than just inconvenience. There's bound to have been missed connections at Stansted - very possibly involving onward Ryanair flights - as well as missed appointments.

The airline should have had someone there to deal with the passengers.

But moving back to these children. The Ryanair flight is scheduled to depart before the first bmi and flybe services to Heathrow and Gatwick.

Wouldn't it have been a PR coup for either airline to allow the children and their parents to travel with them to London? They could then have issued a press release about 'coming to the rescue' etc etc and earned some kudos in the eyes of the travelling public.

The two children and their fathers could still have used the return portion of their Ryanair booking from Stansted.

Isn't there anyone at airports nowadays who can make this kind of decision?

[Ten West]

The clue is in the question:

See the word "Ryanair"? :hmm:

[Rainboe]

'Aviation travel is subject to delays'. It happens. Ryanair no more wished to disrupt the operation than the passengers did. People must accept disruptions happen. The fact a child was significantly disabled, though very unfortunate, really has no bearing on operations. I expect the other flights were full as this one was so delayed.

Have we reached such a stage in passenger expectations that any disruption becomes newsworthy? We already see that explanations are publicly demanded in the case of go-arounds, with every event loudly publicised in this forum. We expect public demands for reasons for delays, but isn't it going too far when the fallout from a disruption gets this sort of publicity? It cannot be helped.

[Load Toad]

It's very sad there was a flight delay - but they booked a low cost carrier and even if it wasn't - delay's happen.

Jack Walsh and Jessica Rea, both 9, were looking forward to a day of red carpet treatment, a tour of the film museum and seeing the sights of London on Saturday March 28.

However, instead of seeing the set of Dr Who, Darth Vader's suit and paying a visit to the London Eye, the Fort Hill Primary pupils were forced to go back home when their 6.30am Ryanair flight from Belfast City Airport to Stansted was delayed.

A day of red carpet treatment; and you booked Ryanair to get there....?

[Ten West]

A day of red carpet treatment; and you booked Ryanair to get there....?

Very succinctly put by Load Toad there.

Ryanair is a low-cost carrier. The reason you get a stupidly cheap ticket price is because you decide that price is a more important factor than customer care.

[PPRuNe Radar]

There's bound to have been missed connections at Stansted - very possibly involving onward Ryanair flights - as well as missed appointments

Ryanair make it clear they do not operate a 'connecting service' airline. They provide one which operates point to point. If you're depending on Ryanair to get you to a connection, you'd be better off considering using another carrier which operates flight connections, otherwise you just have to accept the risk you won't catch your onward flight.

[lexxity]

Ryanair, like most loco's don't have an interlining agreement with carriers such as bmi/aer lingus, etc. Airlines are not charities so why should they carry other airlines disrupted pax for free?

Edited to add: I am sorry that the little boy has such an awful condition, but to use it to get the story in the press is pretty low.

[Avman]

I am sorry that the little boy has such an awful condition, but to use it to get the story in the press is pretty low

But, not as low as some of the things MOL uses in his publicity campaigns.

[frequentflyer2]

Hmmm. I think the point of the story is being missed here. Yes - delays happen. But here we had a situation where three airlines had flights to London departing within a 30 minute period.
One of the airlines was unable to operate its flight on which this little boy and his friend were due to travel with their fathers to attend an organised event.
The story may have been edited for the web but you will see reference to 'the organisers of the event' which would tend to suggest this was not just a private day out.
The fathers then approached other airlines - presumably Flybe and bmi - in a bid to get their children to London in time for the event.
If you read the story you will see it was not a case of there being no seats but a case of the seats available being too expensive which at the last minute is what you would expect.
Now call me soppy, sentimental or over sympathetic but I am fairly sure in times past there would have been a little bit of co-operation between the airlines and some way of accommodating these people would have been found.
What a pity they could not have been accommodated on this occasion. As I said in my initial post the airline concerned would have received some very positive publicity.
I'm not suggesting any airline should carry another's delayed passengers at the drop of a hat but wasn't there anyone present who could have exercised a little discretion in the matter?
By the way I'm fully aware Ryanair is a point to point airline only but show me someone who would not be pretty p...ed off if they booked a 6.30am flight to Stansted intending to connect with one leaving there at 3.30pm and because of this type of delay found they could not do so.
I've been on delayed easyJet flights from Belfast International where heaven and earth has been moved to ensure passengers make onward connections at Liverpool and Luton.
On one occasion people were rushed off the plane immediately the door opened in a bid to get them on a flight which was already boarding.
Even Ryanair has its moments of kindness. As I reported on this website recently I travelled on the 6.30am flight from BHD to STN exactly one week before these unfortunate children and their fathers. On that occasion the doors were disarmed and re-opened to allow three late passengers to board.

[Final 3 Greens]

Companies pay a lot of money for PR exposure.

Either of the other airlines could have bought at least a local, if not national, 'product/brand placement' by selling a heavily subsidised or even giving free seats - what is the real cost?

FF2 made that point and s/he is spot on.

Unfortunately, most airlines seem to lack the commercial ability to harvest such opportunities and the comments of some from the industry here demonstrate a typical 'cost' rather than 'opportunity' based pattern of thinking.

Avman - great point about Ryanair PR.

[Rainboe]

We're talking early morning departures involving 3 aeroplanes almost together. It's crisis point just getting your own flight away on time- nobody would be available on minimum staffing to weigh up a sob story and get authorisation from above! The plain fact is for what they wanted, they chose the wrong airline at the wrong time. You should regard Ryanair as nothing but a bus ticket on a bus service- they do cheap mass travel. If you wanted the fuller service, you should have bought on their flights, and hopefully something may have been tried. People have such expectations of Ryanair, but you have to agree that when things go wrong, you are on your own, under the care of Ryanair. There is a limit to how much you can expect from your cheap ticket.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rainboe

Ever heard of the concept of an agile business?

I am not commenting on 'sob stories', but on missed opportunities by airline commercial departments.

[deltayankee]

Ever heard of the concept of an agile business?



But to be agile in this kind of situation means you have to have people authorised to make decisions very close to the front line, either by giving more people authority (Texas Rangers style) or by making top people constantly available. Most companies today do neither.

[frequentflyer2]

Sorry Rainboe. I'm not being argumentative but what do you mean 'for what they wanted they chose the wrong airline at the wrong time'?
What they and everyone else booked on the flight wanted was to depart BHD around 6.30am and arrive in Stansted approximately 50 minutes later.
They didn't want club class seating, IFE, free meals or anything else that doesn't come with a Ryanair booking reference.
They may well have chosen the Ryanair Stansted service because it offers the earliest arrival in central London.
If you don't have any baggage to collect from the carousel you're in Liverpool Street between 8.30 and 8.45am.
It's not unheard of for passengers on the bmi to Heathrow to still be in the air at this time and the first Gatwick flight can spend a long time circling as well.
Remember also not everyone is 'in the know' about civil aviation.
If people don't fly regularly on business they may well only travel by air when going on holiday or a weekend break - maybe no more than three or four times a year.
When the opportunity came for this courageous little boy to enjoy the event in London his parents probably looked at the best possible timings and chose Ryanair because of the early departure time.
It may well never have struck them to consider what would happen if the airline had no flight crew for the aircraft.

[Rainboe]

Sorry, but disruptions happen. Flights get delayed or cancelled. It happens. Nobody wants it to, but it does. Not often. It's always upsetting for some people, and it's sad a disabled child was severely affected, but what has that to do with it? And in the minutes avialable to try and get the group on another airline's flight? You seriously are kidding? I'm afraid sometimes you have to accept force majeure- there is nothing anybody could do, despite the 'better ideas' from various posters. It's all very well claiming they would have handled it better- they were all in bed far away. The staff on duty are there just to handle departures for people with valid tickets, not act as a social service/sympathetic ear. They cannot handle odd requests- there is no capacity. No point getting upset with them, they were doing their job at maximum capacity already. They have schedules to keep. A problem with Ryanair's passengers is not for them to solve, especially when they don't have any authorisation. You have to be real. Why didn't the family go the day before to make sure? The day will be long and exhausting as it was planned. That is worthy of criticism!

[Load Toad]

Exactly - if it was such a big deal it was worth allowing for some delay or problem by adding a few hours onto the journey, going the day before etc. It goes tits up and someone / anyone else is expected to wave a magic wand and make it all better. Which sometimes isn't possible.

But a headline such as 'Parents Fail to Plan Adequately for Disabled Childs Day Out' or 'Group Didn't Allow Enough time to Get Children to London' don't really have the same sort of impact do they?

[Eboy]

Why didn't the family go the day before to make sure? The day will be long and exhausting as it was planned. That is worthy of criticism!

Flying and doing all those activities in one day seems too much to me.

As a parent, what can you do?

You can tell kids -- beforehand -- that travel works most of the time but things can go wrong, so do not be surprised if they do. It is part of travel. It is OK to be disappointed. Whether things go well or not, we are polite and say "thank you" to the flight attendants and pilot for their work.

[gc2750]

I'm guessing a working-class family from Northern Ireland could only afford to travel Ryanair. I think that despite their pronouncements they are not that cheap and should have refunded the fares in this exceptional case. The principle of caveat emptor still applies but realistically would you expect a poor family to fly BA? I don't fly Ryanair because of the sort of clientelle it attracts (weekend away drunks). I earn enough money to fly with whichever airline I want. However not all people do.

[radeng]

I would say a delay of 8 hours on a SH flight is equivalent to cancellation. Air France delayed me by initially three hours on an internal flight because of a cancellation and gave me a €300 voucher. Three hours ago, Southwest were offering your fare back, a night in a hotel and $200 to give up your seat on a Phoenix to San Diego flight, and then to fly out at 0645 tomorrow morning Phoenix time - and wanting quite a few people to do that. They could just have cencelled.......citing 'technical reasons'.

But we're talking Ryanair, aren't we......

[Dropline]

Given it was the early hours of the morning, I doubt if either flybe or bmi would have had anyone on station with the authority to accept these passengers at a reduced fare as a goodwill/PR gesture. Plus we do get an awful lot of sob stories to deal with, and it becomes difficult to tell the genuine ones from those who are pulling a fast one. The ticket desk staff were probably busy dealing with other delayed Ryanair passengers who were fortunate enough to have the money to buy new tickets when they saw their own flight was delayed, and would not have had the time to start phoning around to try and help these people.

Ryanair do not employ customer service staff at airports. Thats partly how they keep their fares low. They use handling agents, who can face harsh penalties if they do not obey FR rules. That is one of the things you must accept when you book with MOL. Customer service is another one of the many things not included in the price of the ticket!

No doubt BMI/flybe missed the chance of some good PR here, but I have to agree with the posters who suggest flying the night before may have be prudent for such a long and special day, and who suggest using a "full service" carrier would have been a better option, particularly when it came to transferring tickets from one airline to the other.

[frequentflyer2]

Sorry GC2750 but how do you know the families concerned were 'working class'? Are you making this assumption because they had to think twice about forking out hundreds of pounds for one way tickets to London with either Flybe or bmi.
I've just looked at both airline's websites and two adults and two children travelling on the next bookable flight with bmi at 19.50 would pay £596 for economy one way tickets.
Flybe's last flight to Gatwick this evening can't be booked online but the total cost for the first flight tomorrow morning would be £419.
The two children and their fathers certainly could not have flown BA, not because they're either poor or rich, but because the world's favourite airline has not flown scheduled services from Northern Ireland for a number of years.
As far as ensuring they reached Central London on time I would once again point out many people choose this Ryanair flight because it enables them to get there before 9.00am when combined with the Stansted express.

[Ten West]

What about the idea of going the night before as everyone's suggested? That's a Hell of a long day for a fit adult to undertake as it was planned, let alone a disabled child. :uhoh:

Seems to me that they were cutting it fine in any case. Surely planning to "do London" in a day including travel there and back is a little optimistic?

[frequentflyer2]

It's extremely common in Northern Ireland for people to travel to London by air for the day. Remember the majority of the population live within the Greater Belfast area which places them half an hour at most from an airport.
The people featured in this article live in Lisburn - 20 minutes drive to BHD via the M1, Westlink and Sydenham by-pass on a Saturday morning around 5.00am - and that's definitely not breaking any speed limits. Once on the aircraft its 50 minutes to Stansted and another 45 on the train to Liverpool Street. Et voila you're there.
Many people travel from Manchester to London for the day by train and I think it probably takes slightly longer. My sister who lives in West Yorkshire goes to London on business on occasions and she travels by train from her local station to Leeds and on to London on the East Coast Mainline.
Due to the presence of the Irish Sea people here can't take daytrips by train but cheap airfares allow them to do so by plane.
Many people book the odd day away in advance at the cheapest possible fare.
I know one lady who works on a checkout in a supermarket who enjoys Saturdays shopping with her daughters in Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow etc simply because of the availability of cheap flights.

[TightSlot]

I can't help but feel that I'm missing something here. This is what I take to be a summary of events.

Flights were booked with Ryanair, a lo-cost airline that has a wide reputation for price and operational excellence when things are going well, and appalling behavior when they aren't. The planned trip did not apparently allow a usable margin for error or delay.

The kids are disabled: This makes the story 'better' for Press coverage than if they weren't.

On the day of travel, a significant delay occurred. Ryanair duly behaved in accordance with their reputation.

The fault apparently lies with everybody (including other airlines with whom no booking or contract was made) except the parents and/or organizers of the trip.

I'm trying to get more out of this event than that, but it's not easy!

[Final 3 Greens]

TS

From my angle, the other airline(s) missed the opportunity to get positive regional or national media exposure for a fraction of the price of buying advertising....... and didn't, at a time when times are hard.

That aside, I tend to see it your way and as my flying instructor told me many years ago, 'only go by air, if you have time to spare.'

[frequentflyer2]

Tightslot, let's be absolutely accurate here.
First of all just one of the children was disabled not both.
Secondly, no-one is pointing the finger of blame as such at anyone.
The intro to the story does not attempt to do this. Instead it accurately points out the children were 'devastated' by the turn of events.
This cannot be denied. Any child of nine would be deeply distressed if a day out they had been looking forward to for ages was cancelled at the last minute in this way.
Hindsight, as they say, is a great teacher. The parents now probably wish they had travelled the night before and if you're a parent yourself you can understand how painful it must have been to see the children's disappointment and be unable to do anything about it.
However, the entire incident does raise wider questions.

What happened to the flight crew due to operate the service?
Is an eight and a half hour delay to a short domestic flight which lasts only 50 minutes not really a cancellation? One of the parents made the same point.To me the incident also illustrates the need for someone from each airline senior enough to take decisions which may cost money to be present at airports during operating hours.
Yes, this was bitterly disappointing for these children but would it be unreasonable to travel on a flight at 6.30am to attend a funeral or wedding in London at 1.00pm?
Anyone on this Ryanair flight in this position also needed help and there was no-one there to provide it.

[Dropline]

"Anyone on this Ryanair flight in this position also needed help and there was no-one there to provide it"

Thats the point some of us are trying to make! When you book with Ryanair you don't get, and shouldn't expect to get, the levels of customer service you might get with another carrier. Ryanair are a lo-cost no frills operator and therefore do not have staff at airports to provide assistance in these circumstances. :ugh:

[Rainboe]

What happened to the flight crew due to operate the service? What's that got to do with it? The flight was disrupted. It happens in aviation, it can happen to anybody

It's all very well demanding a 'person of authority' present to handle disruptions with suitable authority. Take it from me, when a 168 seat aeroplane gets disrupted, you have 168 people with desperate sob stories, heart-rending sagas of how they MUST get there 2 hours ago, job interviews, weddings in 3 hours, urgent business meetings....... The disabled child would not have got look in! Ryanair has dispensed with all that- you are buying a bus ticket for travel with no guaranteed arrival time. you pay less, you get no customer service, you get travel- don't complain about the food, there isn't any. That's it.

I'm afraid for important events, I would aim for the night before, even with a full service airline. Aeroplanes don't even achieve 97-98% reliability, which means 1 flight in 50 is totally ruined. They were playing the odds. Sadly children suffered, but they have nobody to blame but themselves. Disruptions happen.

[frequentflyer2]

Rainboe, we know Ryanair is a basic, bog standard lo-co carrier. Passengers pay for any refreshments they consume during the flight. There's no pre-assigned seating and the cabin crew are, shall we say, informal although in my experience very friendly. As I said my last trip with them was on the same flight exactly one week earlier and I sat in row 1 where I heard the male cabin crew member call every female passenger 'love' and groups of male passengers 'guys' as they boarded.
HOWEVER, even a basic, bog standard lo-co carrier must have some kind of operations management department which in theory should know about the rostering of every aircraft.
Flight crews do not just disappear in a puff of smoke on their way to the airport.
When you make a booking Ryanair, like everyone else, asks for your telephone number and e-mail address.
They must have known the night before this flight was not going to operate and passengers should have been informed at that stage giving them time to make alternative arrangements.

[TightSlot]

The answers to your questions frequentflyer2 are all contained in the various responses above. You are complaining that a service was not supplied by an airline that doesn't offer that service, and boasts about it publicly. You don't get to keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want (unless you're the government, of course).