Late touch-down and extremeley heaving braking at BHX today...

[darrenmorris]

I landed at Birmingham today and along with most other passengers had to support myself on the seat in-front in order to avoid hitting it. I do maybe 3 return trips a year and never experienced this before, so just wondering how often any more frequent fliers have had to support themselves during braking?

[deltayankee]

Not once in thirty plus years of regular flying.

[eliptic]

This have happens several times, almost every time flying Manila-Butuan

Remember some flights New York-Miami,, i think the crazy pilots had some "short landing competition" going on there hehe:E

[Avman]

As always with these posts, you give the minimum of details, ask questions, and make uninformed conclusions.

If you came in on 33, it has a displaced threshold. It's not uncommon for touchdown to occur around the intersection with 06/24. In order to make the first exit, again it is not uncommon to experience moderate breaking.

This followed what seemed to be an extremely wobbly approach and very late touch-down, so I guess the FO was driving

Statements like this won't help you get answers from pilots. "wobbly approaches, hard and/or so-called late touchdowns can be the outcome of numerous reasons, not least the weather conditions - and not who's flying. I don't know what the wind factor was (and I can't be bothered to find out) but if it was blustery and coming from the WSW (thus a crosswind), that can be the cause of your "wobbly" approach. Also with these particular conditions I believe that the position of the hangars at BHX can also be a bit of a problem with the flare. If you're unlucky you end up banging down or floating.

A forgiving pilot may provide you with a better explanation, but don't alienate the very people who can answer your questions by challenging their flying skills based on zero knowledge on your part.

P.S. I've experienced 319 landings at EGBB/BHX (yes I'm sad and keep a log of all my flying). A few were similar to yours but always in windy conditions as described above.

[Rainboe]

1- How do you know the touchdown was 'late'? Not easy to assess from inside the cabin- 21A does not give you a commanding view.
2- What is wrong with 'extremely heavy braking'? How do you know the pilot wasn't trying to make a turn off that would have saved you a few minutes taxi? Does 'heavy braking' put your health at risk? Is it likely to cause the aeroplane to fall apart?

I sometimes brake heavily, sometimes just for the sheer exuberance of it, like 'feel this, people!' Usually with an end in sight. BNot exactly a health risk, so why are you worried about it?

[darrenmorris]

My question wasn't to pilots, it was to fellow SLF regarding how often they have experienced having to stop themselves hitting the seat in-front.

In today's landing, most passengers had to take visible action to avoid head-butting the seat infront! I guess those who didn't were braced more firmly in their seat. I'm just curious as to how often this occurs - and as already mentioned above - not very.

I'm sorry I can't provide any more technical details.

Informed passengers are well aware that there are 2 people up front; one usually "less qualified" than the other; so of course this fact is going to be used in jest. Posts from flight crew frequently jest about it too, so I don't see why SLF shouldn't be allowed to!

[midnight retired]

Maybe its about time that SLF started their own website,this sort of spurious comment hardly merits a lookin on pprune. If you are seriously concerned about your alleged event then I would recommend that you direct your concerns to the Airline who are in a better position to give you the answer
.

[darrenmorris]

My apologies; I accept that it was disrespectful way of putting my question across.

I have removed the "unqualified comments" and jest from my OP.

[eliptic]

To save a place i ask here

Humble question to our Pilots:

Flying CPH-AMS ( if remember right a 737) at cruising altitude the A/C suddenly did a hefty left turn/diving,, the reaction from pilot was within seconds and you could feel how AP was turned of,,what could made that rapid maneuver?? :eek:

[COF&COE]

most passengers had to take visible action to avoid head-butting the seat infront!

Maybe the Captain was just inviting you to join him on the flight deck:E

flight crew frequently jest about it

[Michael Birbeck]

"Maybe the Captain was just inviting you to join him on the flight deck"

Hmm who would want to join some of the posters here in the jump seat or any other seat for that matter? :ugh:.

I now know what that smiley is all about.

[Rainboe]

at cruising altitude the A/C suddenly did a hefty left turn/diving,, the reaction from pilot was within seconds and you could feel how AP was turned of,,what could made that rapid maneuver??

I expect the pilot wanted a quick descending left turn? Maybe they were held up at cruise altitude and then needed a rapid descent? Who knows? How could you feel the AP was turned off?

A secret- not all flight manoeuvres are standard, smooth and without feeling (like mine). It does not mean that you have had a close brush with death, your safety has been compromised, or they are trying to destroy your hide in some way! Heavier landing that normal, heavy braking, bit of bumpiness, steep bank (you really can't judge), all not a problem. People need to relax more. All the millions of flights without an accident. You should be worrying about the road situation and how dangerous cars are!

[Final 3 Greens]

I sometimes brake heavily, sometimes just for the sheer exuberance of it, like 'feel this, people!'

I am sure that your engineer colleagues love you Rainboe :ugh:, to say nothing of the beancounters

Now, what is the brake cooling schedule for the 73?

[Michael Birbeck]

DESIGN DIRECTIVE 2100/X
In the case of fly by wire systems, with specific reference to braking systems a number of modes are missing. These missing modes correspond to what is termed the Rainboe effect, a set of considerations hitherto unappreciated by aircraft braking system developers working with predicative logic. The issues of translating some of these ambiguous Rainboe states into formal boolean logic are still under review.
To summarise these new braking modes are:
HHHC: Has he had his coffee
FF: Feeling feisty.
SEXI: Sheer exuberance of it.
NOEIS: No end in sight.
EIS: End in sight (approximates to MAX BRAKE).
BSLFH: Bang self loading freight heads.
LJDOI: Let’s just do it.

HHHC: Let the linear speed measured by the wheel tachometer be ..... (CENSORED)

[eliptic]

Rainboe.

Hehe,, i have full confidence in the pilots when flying especially the KLM pilots, and i know that you pilots are made of flesh and blood like my self ;) (i hate injections)

Anyway:

In this flight KL 1126 15 min in cruise this happened ( i fly this regular so i know not normal)

The captain was announcing the "incident" but i did not hear all...i hear that the AP was reacting on something and that he disconnect it....one thing is clear that the pilots did have a very short reaction ..:D

Could it be drag from other A/C?

[Rainboe]

Vortex encounters are not unusual. The effect can be turbulence and a sudden rolling motion. Maybe could have been descending and hit very different winds. These things are happening all the time. Because something you may consider 'unusual' appears to happen to your flight, it does not automatically mean you have diced with death, or the pilots are trying to kill you. People look out at other aeroplanes in the holding pattern and leap to a conclusion they have just avoided death by collision, or because they've gone around the pilots were trying to 'do them in', or they've landed and braked heavily 'the pilots must have landed deep- they must be sacked!'. Every flight is different, most have something 'unusual' or different happen. Sometimes aeroplanes rock roughly, or use speedbrakes a lot, or go around from approaches because the one in front is slow getting out of the way. But far too many people come on here wanting to find out if they have had a close experience of meeting their maker!

It gets very tedious for professional pilots, and whilst this is an aviation forum, it is still basically a 'Professional Pilots Forum' (that's what it still calls itself!), and it does seem in very bad taste if people still pop up trying to assemble evidence that they have been 'mishandled' or had a wrong done unto them! The extremely safe flying statistics say that if they have been mishandled to the extent they seem to believe, Europe would be littered with bodies and smoking wreckage! You drive your car, sometimes your gear changes are not the best. Sometimes somebody steps out into the road and you have to brake sharply. Traffic lights change and hold you slow up after sharp braking. At no stage have you 'nearly crashed'. Why do people think the slightest thing out of the 'ordinary' on a flight needs open examination afterwards?

If you are nervous, accept you are so. get through it and don't try and find out what every lurch and bump is afterwards. Some landings are heavy. It doesn't matter. If the aeroplane can still fly, it's fine. Flight recorders are watching everything anyway- anything out of order will be drawn to attention. So sit back, relax and enjoy the flight, because there's nothing you can do anyway, and if you are still alive afterwards, nothing really went wrong, did it?

[eliptic]

Rainboe:

My god!,why you always think someone is thinking of doomsday?:ugh:

I was just wonder and had no concern what so ever about this being dangerous or pilot error or or or or,,,i was curious and just a question!!


I know this is a 'Professional Pilots Forum' and i respect that and stay within the limits**,,but remember that behind you are pax and thats why you are a captain :oh:

:ok:

**
Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight-61/) (35 Viewing)
If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your views or questions here? Many of us pilots like to know exactly what you think of us, the job, the airline or anything that you think we should hear about.

[frequentflyer2]

I'm not trying to be patronising but I don't think flying just three return trips per annum is enough to be able to judge whether or not your experiences at Birmingham were out of the ordinary. When it's windy you get a 'wobbly' approach. You may not find it pleasant but the experts in the cockpit are more than able to deal with it. Try the approach to Belfast City on a dark January night in a howling gale. Now that's wobbly!! I fly frequently and I have experienced some very strong braking. In my experience it's normally to allow the aircraft to use the first available exit from the runway.

[Michael Birbeck]

Look up BOAC Flight 911 for the ARMAGEDDON turbulence factor. On that note ARMAGEDDON out of this thread.

Smooth flying to all.

[eliptic]

Michael.

Thanks for that,,interesting reading:) and as this it was "aircraft to undergo a drastic maneuver"

BOAC Flight 911 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Flight_911)

[passy777]

I landed at Birmingham today and along with most other passengers had to support myself on the seat in-front in order to avoid hitting it.Seems like a good reason to ensure that seat belts are worn correctly.

Regarding 'wobbly' approaches, I have had many a 'cheek clenching' experience coming into NCL from the East (over the coast), but this always seems par for the course up here as we do tend to get our fair share of windy conditions.
Seat belts worn, expect a couple of 'wobbles' - no problem!

[Option C]

I flew into Birmingham yesterday morning. I hope I wasn't flying the plane you were on because I didn't think my approach and landing was too bad! You didn't fly in from Belfast did you?

[Rainboe]

My god!,why you always think someone is thinking of doomsday?

I was just wonder and had no concern what so ever about this being dangerous or pilot error or or or or,,,i was curious and just a question!!

Sorry, but in my experience, everyone who ever asks what every lump and bump and funny lurch and noise is, is in fact a nervous flyer.

There comes a time when pandering to their nervousness achieves nothing. You have to say 'live with it and beat it, or don't travel at all! You chose. But you don't chose at engine start time!'

It takes a lot of coarseness and brutality, which is where I come in. I find it works. Passengers who are allegedly suddenly 'too nervous to fly' are mysteriously able to when subject to a Rainboe tirade in front of the other passengers who they are about to delay for an hour or two because they feel like 'chickening out' at the last minute. You don't 'chicken out' with me. You buy a ticket, you present your ass in that seat at the appointed time with a big smile on your face, and off we go, and I get paid. You don't present your ass in that seat and then say 'Sorry, I don't really want to go now!' and hold everyone up for hours while your worthless bags are located and removed.

It's OK to be nervous, don't be shy! We all are to a degree. It shows when you have to know why the aeroplane braked heavily or it lurched to one side slightly. But you have shown you can conquor it. Good for you!

[Avitor]

Sorry, but in my experience, everyone who ever asks what every lump and bump and funny lurch and noise is, is in fact a nervous flyer.

There comes a time when pandering to their nervousness achieves nothing. You have to say 'live with it and beat it, or don't travel at all! You chose. But you don't chose at engine start time!'



A few years ago, I questioned a 'heavy' landing, at STN. Your reply was the usual brusque retort.
To be quite honest, I appreciated it.

<end of brown nosing> :)

[Nicholas49]

darrenmorris - can I make a suggestion?

The next time you experience this sort of thing, the best thing is to ask the pilots of your aircraft. When you are disembarking, if you ask a member of the cabin crew really politely whether you can speak to the pilots, they will probably say yes. You can then ask your question directly and you will get your answer. It really is a better course of action than coming on an anonymous forum later and asking a vague question which no one, not even a professional, can answer with any degree of accuracy given that they weren't there.

[Rainboe]

well thank you Avitor- nothing personal was meant, although it is taken as such by so many, but we do seem to have reached a level of safety in aviation where anything so much as a slightly heavier than normal landing or a go-around is now perceived as 'dangerous- where's my lawyer? What have you done to me?' In the past, one was relieved merely to have survived the experience (and one frequently didn't). Now it's all so safe, people feel really aggrieved over the slightest non-normal thing. Look at the various outbursts re Pen ('my mother didn't check my sex') Hadow's ridiculous Ryanair depressurisation at Lyons last year. You would think Ryanair personally insulted each and every passenger whereas they were perfectly and responsibly (and satisfactorily) handled. They all wanted to sue instead of queueing for the Captain's autograph (3 Euros each to Ryanair please) and falling at MOL's feet shrieking 'we are unworthy!'

It has to stop before we go completely like America. Common sense must be made to rule.

[Avman]

Only agree with you up to a point Rainboe. Remember this is the SLF forum. It's by asking questions that people can educate themselves. No harm in asking, but it's how you ask. What often bugs me are the SUN newspaper headline-type superflous comments/incorrect deductions which accompany perfectly reasonable questions.

Many years ago, in a B707 over the Atlantic, we were in the cruise nice and smooth when we suddenly rolled and pitched. The manouver was violent enough for a number of pax to scream. We recovered quickly and that was that. I had a good idea what may have happened and thought no more of it. There were lots of nervous pax for the rest of the flight. A little explanation from the boys up front might have helped. In a lifetime of flying most pax may probably never experience "unusual" events, so when it does happen I can understand the need for a curious "ïs it normal" or "what caused this" question. Just keep the question factual and simple.

[eliptic]

Rainboe!

:ok: you right!

I love flying,,but im also curious about how things works,, thats all,,and as a ex. pro race driver,,, i can take the heat,haha

[Rainboe]

Quite. Couldn't agre more, and I agree explanations for such events are required. However, there is very often an observable degree of smouldering resentment that whatever happened, 'it was the fault of those monkeys up front and I want to know what they were doing with my safety, NOW!'. People these days go on cruise ships, then expect to sue everyone in sight if the ship runs into a storm or rocks too much. How outrageous, ships occasionally experience storms! Go to India as a tourist and people complain the food is 'foreign' and nobody speaks English (in fact they speak English better than the English!). People must be reminded to be more pragmatic and understanding of the unexpected.




....Or Rainboe will be unleashed!

[Hartington]

I don't know the reason for the particular landing here but I can quote three I have experienced where I asked and found out:

1) Chicago - BA 747. Very heavy breaking on landing. Pilot announced (I didn't ask in this case) that there was a China 747 in front of us on approach and by breaking heavily he could get us to the terminal first and thus in front of those passengers in the queue.

2) Heathrow - BA 757. Firm arrival, heavy braking, full reverse thrust. It turned out that another aircraft with a medical emergency had pulled in front of us (it should have been on the "other" runway but there was a legitimate reason why it wasn't) leaving very short spacing. Furthermore, when we slowed to improve spacing the plane behind us couldn't fly as slowly so pilot knew he had to clear quickly.

3) Belfast - BA 737. Firm landing as close as possible to runway threshold, full reverse thrust, heavy braking (something fell out in the galley with a crash!). We were late (not much), only 3 exits from the runway and if we rolled to the end it would have made us even later - heavy braking got us off the middle exit and to the terminal almost on time.

So, two out of three were "customer service" oriented. I've little doubt there are many more reasons and to explain every one would require several books.

[Nicholas49]

Hartington - out of interest, how did you find out the reasons given in scenario 2? Did you ask the pilot yourself? I just can't imagine him explaining all that over the PA without some passengers having a heart attack, or as Rainboe says wanting to sue the airline!

[L337]

I was based at Birmingham for 12 years. Man and Boy. Dan Air, and BA. Birmingham is a pig of a place. It has a runway at 90 degrees to the prevailing wind. More than that it sits in a hollow, so the wind curls out over the edge of the hill and makes mayhem with you on as you are about to touch down.

Even in the most moderate of breezes it is turbulent into BHX. On a windy day it is prehistoric in its ferocity.

If you fly into BHX as SLF, live with it. It comes with the territory. As a pilot if you can survive a few equinoctial seasons you will forever be good at crosswinds and turbulence.

Rough is a normal day at Birmingham.

[eliptic]

"it was the fault of those monkeys up front and I want to know what they were doing with my safety, NOW!'"

Hmm,, thats why the kokpit ;-) door always locked

http://retrocrush.buzznet.com/100monsters/monkey3.jpg

[Hartington]

I asked the pilot. (I happened to know him).

[silverelise]

the A/C suddenly did a hefty left turn/diving,, the reaction from pilot was within seconds and you could feel how AP was turned of
Did the captain come on the PA shouting "DAKKKA! DAKKKA! DAKKKA!..." ?

[BladePilot]

A long long time ago, British Midland GLA-LHR usual routine departed GLA on schedule, pleasant trip to LHR and as usual we entered the hold. On our second orbit everything was just fine and I was gazing out of the window watching the other aircraft in the hold when suddenly all hell broke loose! It felt as if the aircraft had been dropped on to an old corrigated washboard it was shaking so hard it was difficult to focus my vision on anything, a number of overhead bins popped open and spilled their contents and one cabincrew member was thrown to the floor I just happened to briefly glimpse the wing flexing like I've never seen before or since. It was all over in a matter of seconds although it felt like minutes. Immediately the Capt explained in the most calming style that we had just passed through the jetwash of a B757 which had passed slightly above and left to right some distance ahead of us. The one thing that amazed me was there was not one scream or groan or moan from any of the passengers.
Had many an interesting landing in my time, that's what makes flying fun, never two the same!:)

[silverelise]

I used to date a Mon flight attendant and heard plenty of CAT stories -the nastiest involved a few limbs and a trolly doing a drinks service. That is a heck of a mass to hit the ceiling and come crashing down again (the trolly, that is :ok:)

Also I've flown through my own turbulence whilst doing steep turns on the PPL course - that's quite interesting in a C152. (and yes, yes I know that means I did it wrong) :ouch: