Future Lynx...... Why not Pavehawk?!?

[thedonnmeister]

Which one would you rather have?

For around $10.2 Million you could have a Pavehawk 60G - Tried & Tested battlefield monster. :cool:
http://www.920rqw.afrc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090303-049.JPG

Or if you feel like being arsed raped for $21 Million, many be Future Lynx sounds like your cup of tea? :ugh:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Future_Lynx_Concept_Naval_lg.jpg

on a serious note, what would you rather have as a Lynx replacement?

Jamie

[Jimlad1]

Unit costs are only part of the equation. To get the true figure of cost and time, you have to work out how much it would cost to create and sustain a completely new stores line for the Pavehawk, and to ensure that sufficient training was done to ensure pilots, crew and ground crew were trained and available to sustain the squadrons. You also need to work out how much it would cost, and how long it would take to integrate pavehawk into UK service, bearing in mind that integration trials usually show up huge problems which cost a lot of money to fix.

Its not just about buying the airframe, its about buying the capability that we can generate, deploy and sustain that also need to be considered.

[Mister-T]

Haven't we already done this one to death?

[GreenKnight121]

To Jimlad's list add the cost of the support/test&repair equipment... hardly insignificant.

Then add the political cost of replacing yet another "home-built" aircraft with a "foreign import"... jobs, etc.

Not really doable.

[Front Seater]

Yes we have done this before....

but what we have not actually established is despite all of the AW 'bells and whistles' what actual increase in capability will FLynx give?

Lets look at the new engines going the current Lynx at the moment - shed loads of money, but ask the key question:

How much extra lift or range or endurance or anything that actually adds anything by way of an improvement in capability and all you will get is a lot of sucking of teeth and looking at the floor.

AW have come up with a solution that they want and provides them with money from the Crown in an environment that is not seeing much spending going on, but does not actually result in satisfying the requirement....or assisting the troops/aircrew on the ground

Sound familiar? All rumour and speculation of course. ;)

Sadly I have to agree - if you want (small) lift then go for Future Medium Lift (or whatever it is called in this long drawn out SABR, FASH, FCR pontificating debacle) or if you want recce, then buy more AH (or at least correctly man/equip the ones that we already have).

Re-engined Lynx and FLynx that bring nothing to the party except saving Yeovil jobs and industry could be more intelligently reviewed by the use of Foreign Military Sales/building under licence to not only keep the jobs in Yeovil but also actually do as advertised on the tin with battle proven equipment (e.g. Pave Hawk).

[Widger]

Front Seater,

Lynx IS battle proven.

The Grey Lynx - At War (http://www.the-grey-lynx.com/at_war.htm)

[spheroid]

WE have done this to death and the answer was clear. We will buy the Wildcat from Westlands because it will guarentee future jobs which in turn will produce votes.

I would much rather my £1 of tax payers money go into the pocket of a bloke in Yeovil than a bloke in the USA.

[ShyTorque]

Helicopter replacements for the UK military? Not much progress so far, then.

After 1979 when I first joined an operational squadron, the hot topic was AST 404 "should the Puma/Wessex replacement be the Blackhawk?"
Thirty years later they still struggle on with thirty five year old plus aircraft!

I remember seeing an RTM 322 powered Blackhawk fly at the Farborough Airshow; for a time we thought we might even get a few...

Back then the "hot" contender from the south west was the Westland 30 :yuk:

At least the RAF finally got the EHI 01, or EH 101 as it was mis-named.
I finally got to fly the Blackhawk for a living but had to go elsewhere to do it.

[Evalu8ter]

The replacement of Wessex / Puma by RTM-powered WS-70s was effectively scuppered by the AAC who were terrified that the armed potential of the Blackhawk would see the crabs grab at the Lynx role and prevent the acquisition of a dedicated AH. Much like the (eventual) RR powered (W)AH-64, the RTM WS-70 would have proved to be a potent platform in current theatres - indeed, it stacks up very favourably to the candidate platforms in the current FMH programme.

Whilst we all line up to give AW a good kicking on their own designs, it is as well to remember that they do a very good job of producing and improving other peoples airframes. The Whirlwind/Wessex/Sea King are all, arguably, better than their Sikorsky forebears and the Apache has proven a far better platform in Theatre. It is a crying shame that the skilled part of AW (mission systems / transmissions / rotor systems) have been denied the opportunity to exploit the Chinook / Blackhawk airframes in a similar way.

The RAF were forced to accept the Merlin against all military judgement (both RAF and Army wanted a pure Chinook buy). Partly this was to offset the cancellation of a large number of ASW Merlins as a "peace dividend". Hmm, so history repeats itself - the RAF were screwed to help out the RN and AW over Merlin in much the same way that the AAC is being shafted to accept FLynx to protect the RN SCMR requirement and, again, preserve AW jobs.

In fairness, in a recession, such "stealth protectionism" is only to be expected.

[[email protected]]

Widger - that link tells you what a good missile the Sea Skua was, not what a battle proven helicopter the Lynx was - they also fired rockets from the Wessex, does that make it a battle proven helicopter?

Actually since it has more uses than Lynx maybe AW should be looking a FWessex - at least you could fit a stick of troops in the back!!:)

[ShyTorque]

The Blackhawk IS the FWessex.... or the SuperWessex! :)

[Jolly Green]

The Pave Hawk is obsolete, and was admittedly inadequate when purchased in the first place. It borrowed much 70's and 80's technology from the Pave Low which made it better than nothing. It still doesn't meet the USAF SAR requirements of 1968. It's had numerous upgrade plans which have tried to alleviate it's problems, including range, armament, cube, all weather capability and power (except at sea level). Most of those upgrades have been underfunded.

The 920th has included some great aviators, including some friends of mine. It's a shame they've been treated so poorly. Under the Airlift folks our rescue money was consistently shifted to the C-17. After the move to the fighter/bomber commanders it was the same story with fighter/bomber priorities.

I'd advise you to check the pubs in the Mildenhall/Lakenheath areas for a bona fide HH-60G expert. It may cost you a pint or two though.

A better argument might be the MH-60K, or the brand new stock black hawk off the line, depending on what you really want it for.

[busdriver02]

To add to what Jolly Green has said, I very much doubt you could get a Pavehawk spec 60 for 10mil in today's dollars.

[oldpinger]

So how do you fit a Pavehawk on a frigate designed (hangar size etc) around lynx? I think the Pavehawk probably has a bigger deck signature than the EH101 as well- Tail wheel vs nose wheel.
Concur with Jolly Green about old technology, just have a look at the RAN 60b-2s. Very old computers etc.

Hellfire would be nice though:ok:

[Hilife]

TDM

I’ve no doubt Sikorsky will field a Black Hawk solution – amongst others - to the MoD for the FMH competition in time, but cannot imagine for a figure of $10.2m. Especially when all UK content, training and entry into service costs are taken into account, but a well respected, capable and battle proven platform non-the-less.

Flynx, $21m? - In March 2008, the forecast cost to the MoD for the Flynx programme was a little under £2Bn, so with only 62 SCMR/BRH platforms on order, that’s around £32m a piece - a bargain I’m sure you will agree.

I’d hate to think how much Flynx would have cost the taxpayer had we not had a strategic partnering agreement.

[Razor61]

Future Lynx? What's that?

It's now the AW159!

[Faithless]

Yeap AW 159 it is
AGUSTAWESTLAND (http://www.agustawestland.com/communication_det.php?id_news=480&yy=2009)

[NURSE]

Again its going to be down to budgets and UK jobs. AW159 is going to be built in the UK and the money spent in UK industry. If we were to go down the route of Blackhawk for the AAC we would still need a Helecopter for the RN and given the dimensions of RN frigate hangers Seahawk may not be an option.
I would also suggest AW wouldn't get a liscence to manufacture as The USA will also be looking at preserving US jobs.
If the chancellors optimism doesn't pay of the Lynx AH9 re-engining programme could well be the only "New" lynx in service.

[mick2088]

Not trying to sound like a smart alec, it is actually the AW159 for the export market and the Lynx Wildcat for the AAC and the FAA.

[Bismark]

and the Lynx Wildcat for the AAC and the FAA.

I believe the UK Forces will call it the WILDCAT..."Lynx WILDCAT" is a Westlands marketing name to preserve the heritage of the Lynx.

[spheroid]

Sadly and due to IPR reasons it will be called Lynx Wildcat.

[Jackonicko]

AW159 is the internal Westland designation. Lynx Wildcat will be used for export versions as well as for the MoD.

But will the AAC/RN ones be AH and HMAs respectively, or, since it's '98% common' "differing only in role equipment" will they have a common designation - MAH, perhaps.

And will this be the Mk.10, or the Mk.1?

[mick2088]

AgustaWestland don't even seem to know what it is as they are frequently mentioning its internal name "AW159" while stating "Lynx Wildcat" in the same sentence. They even call it the "AW159 Lynx Wildcat" in the press release with the same name usage in MoD press release issued on the same day. Why didn't they just call it the Lynx 2 or something like that? Keep it simple.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | Future Lynx helicopter becomes Lynx Wildcat (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/FutureLynxHelicopterBecomesLynxWildcat.htm)

The Future Lynx helicopter is now to be known formally as the AW159 Lynx Wildcat, it was announced at a ceremony at AgustaWestland in Yeovil on Friday 24 April 2009.




Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, Quentin Davies, said:"I am pleased to be here today in Yeovil to mark the renaming of the Future Lynx as Lynx Wildcat.


He went on to say; "The name Wildcat evokes memories of past successes in previous campaigns, and I am confident that this aircraft will also prove its worth on operations."


The name 'Wildcat' recalls the name given to the Grumman F4F which was widely used during the Second World War. The aircraft ceased operational service in 1945 but some flying aircraft remain, including one in the collection of the Imperial War Museum Duxford.




It also evokes memories of past Labour Governments when the word “Wildcat” would have implied a “strike” capability!

[FNU_SNU]

This sort of things happens all too often. We could buy OTS but insist on building/manufacturing under licence and taking bits off, adding bits, etc etc.
We bought the SA80, when everyone wanted M-16, Apache (although better) has had problems because of the changes, Bowman - late and over budget, etc etc
Our governments will never learn.

[NURSE]

And we never learn cause we keep voting in the same clowns. Usually in slightly different proportions. If the People of the UK would change the 2 party state to a 3 party state it might make life more interesting.

[Tiger16]

I have it on good authority that AgustaWestland, realising their stupidity in creating an Army helicopter capable only of the ISTAR role, didn't bother to christen FutureLynx - in anticipation of it's inevitable cancellation once common sense prevailed! Sadly, it didn't...

[Flying Fishead]

Hate to go off message, but on the dark blue side, we are actually pleased to see the programme finally making some progress. If you accept that for political reasons we were always going to get a Wastelands product, and for all the ones listed above it was always going to be a Lynx variant, and then you focus on the capability that it will bring into the Maritime environment (also unfashionable at the moment) and indeed the littoral, there is much to celebrate. For our day to day business we are looking at improvements in performance from the aircraft that are significant compared with what we are working with at the moment, whilst the sensor fit is ideal for our day to day work. If we get the weapons being scoped, then they'll do nicely as well.

Inconvenient or just more fun just to knock it without recognising that it might fit one environment and operator very nicely?;)

[mick2088]

Maybe this one might have been more to the AAC's liking?

http://www.agustawestland.com/dinimg/AW693xsito.jpg

[NURSE]

Glad someone is please with the Wildcat/Flynx/AW159 HMA8 replacement.

For its size and capibility what are the alternatives?