BBMF visit question.

[Al R]

I would like to take my ex father in law ex AG (tail end charlie in Lancs, and Stirling too - not sure where he sat) there next week. I've had a quick look at the website and although it talks about availability, could someone let me know if there is something in the hanger to look at and rummage around? Also, how often do the tours take place (looking at arriving, 1400ish) and how long do they realistically last? Finally, my companion is quite fragile these days - is he allowed to look inside the bomber (if its there)?

He holds the MM and ended up doing 36 years, so one of us bullet pushers ended up doing good. ;)

Many thanks.

Al

[circle kay]

Al,
Have you considered taking the gentleman a few miles further down the road to visit Just Jane (http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/)?

[Al R]

The ride sounds like a great idea, and just what he needs at the moment.

Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre (http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/popup.cfm?p_n=48322&p_i=48322)

Thanks so much for the suggestion.

[Riskman]

Al,

I was there last August - it was outstanding. The Lanc, several Spitfires and Hurricanes, Dakota and Chipmunk in the hangar and Typhoons operating from the ASP just the other side of the wire. Tour was about an hour with an extremely knowledgable guide (as they all are) and it was the highlight for many of the cadets I was bussing round (they didn't get bored;)).

Phone the visitor centre first to find out what's in residence. Also let them know you're bringing a MM winner from that period - it adds to the richness of the history of the Flight and you may get a more personalized service.

Hope you both have a great day.:ok:

R

[Al R]

Many thanks R.

[TEEEJ]

Hi Al,

If you arrive a little earlier you may see a Typhoon practice at 1300 local.

It is a bit hit and miss if the slots are used though.

RAF Coningsby - Flying Information (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/flyinginfo/)

'Beginning on Monday 16 March 2009, the Typhoon Display aircraft will be practicing for the forthcoming display season. Typhoon flying practice may take place over the airfield on weekdays, (Monday to Friday) within the following time slots: 0800 - 0830hrs and 1300 - 1330hrs. These times have been chosen to minimize noise disturbance to the local schools during lesson and exam times.

Daily display flying practice will then be reduced from approximately the beginning of May 2009 when the Pilot will have completed his work up phase.'

TJ

[Al R]

Another dimension to consider - the plan evolves!

Many thanks T.

[TEEEJ]

No probs, Al. Hope you both have a great day out!

TJ

[Tankertrashnav]

I too hope the day goes well - my limited experience of BBMF is that they are really helpful and will do what they can, existing commitments permitting. One thing intrigues me though

He holds the MM and ended up doing 36 years, so one of us bullet pushers ended up doing good.

I'd be really interested to hear how he got the MM if you know. That's normally an army bravery award, but some RAF NCO aircrew POWs got it for successfully escaping from captivity - was that the case?

[Al R]

Its going to sound dubious, but I have never discussed it with him and we have just never talked about our respective careers. He never talks about his (wartime) service at all and I don't ask him.

I never knew that fact about the MM, but you're absolutely right. It could be that in the mists of time, I have got it confused with the DFM - I'll let you know.

MM Citations (http://www.rafweb.org/MM_Holders1.htm)

Al

[Tankertrashnav]

Well MM or DFM it doesnt matter, it is still a medal to be very proud of. Speaking as a post war nav whose biggest problem was finding that the sandwiches in the in-flight rations were a bit stale, I have the highest regard for these guys, and think they all deserved a medal, although of course that never happens. I have talked to scores of WW2 veterans over the years and never ceased to be amazed at the experiences they had. I really hope he has a great day, and who knows, it might encourage him to talk about his career.

[AHAR]

Had a great day there in February surrounded by Spits, Hurricanes, Chipmunks and the wonderful Dakota and Lancaster. For an older gentleman it's an easy walk along the side of the hanger. If he was a rear gunner in the Lanc he'll be within inches of where he sat, as the tail is very close to the visitor viewing area. Nothing to clamber over, but the guides really know their stuff and there are usually mechanics working on the airframes.

There are also two separate base viewing areas and as already mentioned, you are likely to see Typhoons up close and personal.

Hope it is a wonderful day for you both.

[Al R]

Thanks both.

John isn't up to it this week, so we have put it on hold. Tanker - agreed, what difference does it make? I spoke with his daughter about it, and she thinks it was a DFM, so it was prob my mistake.

What he talks about is not the operational flying as such (I did take him to Munchengladbach once and he looked around, sniffed and said; '.. looks a bit different from the ground' - and that was it), but instead the esoteric craic, the gossip and the banter - the colour on the tapestry that we are going to lose because it wasn't and couldn't be properly captured and transcribed. The fact that he always hated Rockapes because one stole his push bike in 40-something, the waiting to get back to a decent breakfast and then hitting the sack like you would after any night shift in a cold room with people snoring, how crappy a certain bomber was because the seat was poor, or how the crews hated it and grumbled all the time and ached to get onto Lancs, and inter crew politik.

The post war period of service life remains generally murky to me, but he also talks a bit about the different grades of aircrew Warrant Officer that they had for a while and how that was treated with derision and scorn. When it became clear there were no slots for AGs in Vulcans and a possible discharge was on the cards, he went into admin. He was the Families Officer at Akrotiri in 74 and does talk of the pronto evacuation of the patch at BG in Limassol which sounded quite tasty. I think he would have rathered been sitting behind some .303s and not his in-tray.

[Icare9]

Al, sorry to hear that John is unwell and visit put on hold for the moment.
Perhaps you might cheer him up by pointing him to the thread "Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW11" in this section (if you haven't done it already!!)
Please stress that it would be invaluable if he could pass on his memories before too late, as cliffnemo and regle are doing.
Just see what reactions those 2 have from all the readers who just can't get enough. I know many don't want to talk about the WW2 losses, but if he doesn't tell, then ALL the memories have gone, the ones who aren't still here as well as his. Even for family use, do get it on tape.
He might say "they're gone but not forgotten" but they will be if he doesn't pass that knowledge on.
I do hope he is strong enough and the BBMF boys can coax him into the Lanc.

[x213a]

Good call:ok:

[cliffnemo]

Hi Al R.

Could I recommend a visit to the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington, Nr York. If you write to the director, explaining he is an ex D.F,M tail 'end charlie' he may be given permission to enter the Halifax with a guide. He may be allowed to sit in all seats, ask questions. and enjoy a meal in the N.A.A.F.I. at a reasonable price I wrote to the director, was given permission as a veteran to go inside the aircraft with a quide. Think there is a section on air gunnery, as well as other aircraft
Very nostalgic. They will mention a donation can be made.

PLEASE. How about you contributing , on his behalf, some of his stories to 'Gaining a Pilots Brever in ww 2' he is more than welcome.

N.B Members of the public are not allowed inside the aircraft, due irresponsible behavior ' in the past.

[Chugalug2]

Al, what a great idea, especially with the added advice from others. PPRuNe at its best! cliffnemo and Icare9 both are spot on the money. The stories that Cliff, Reg and others enthrall us with on this forum always result in pleas for more of the same. Please try to persuade John to contribute his recollections if only by proxy. As someone who:

always hated Rockapes because one stole his push bike in 40-something

he is obviously a man of discernment and principle! :ok:
In all seriousness though we owe him and his colleagues our very freedom. I salute them all!

[cliffnemo]

Al . Please tell John it wasn't me wot pinched his bike.
.
However , if he 'tunes in' to my thread he may be amused in a future tale of how a certain W/O helped the country's post war export effort by exporting old 'sit up and begs' in the bomb bay of a Lancaster . via Hemswell . Glatton. Pomigliano (Naples).
Tell him to join in the fun.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/POMIGLIANO169.jpg
I Q FOX At POMIGLIANO.

[Al R]

Icare,

I certainly will try. He suffered a close bereavement the other week and at the risk of being insensitive, I don’t want to bombard him with well meaning random acts of kindness when all he might want to do is draw breath for a week or two first. He had a heart attack a year or two back as well so I am just giving hm space. Thank you for the thought.

Cliff,

Thanks for that. I’ll print off the thread and hand it to him. He isn’t IT literate mind. He was at Hemswell (not sure when or who with); he and I went for a wander in the 90s and he took me for a tour around the old Barrack Blocks. There was a market there if I remember rightly. He showed me a poem that he had, all about tail end Charlies and I'd love to come across it again. It took a special bloke to do the job, and do it effectively.

Chuggers,

He grumbles that Rocks stole his bike AND his daughter although he might be mellowing a bit now. I wonder if he ever got his bike back? :ok:

[TEEEJ]

Hi Al,

Unfortunately, due to deployment, the Typhoon practice displays scheduled for RAF Coningsby will now take place at RAF Leuchars. See link reference Typhoon displays.

29 R OCU at Leuchars (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8614)

RAF Leuchars practice display

'Start date/time: 21/04/2009 11:50 UTC
End date/time: 22/04/2009 14:30 UTC
Activity period: APR 21 1150-1230, APR 22 1350-1430
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 100
AIR DISPLAY BY MIL FAST JET ACFT WI 5NM RAD 5622N 00252W
(RAF LEUCHARS, FIFE). DISPLAY BELOW 4000FT AGL EXCEPT FOR FINAL ZOOM CLIMB.'

See following thread for RAF Coningsby BBMF/Typhoon practice and display authorisation NOTAMs.

Validation PDA day Coningsby (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8612)

TJ

[cliffnemo]

Just thinking Al. John didn't sing that age old song that we used to hear crackling over the intercom from a frozen rear gunner by the name of Speedy. ?

I've sat in this turret for hours an hours,
I've stuck it as long as I could.
I'v stuck it and stuck it,
until I said 'bother'.
My 'bottom' is not made of wood.

Surprising what suddenly flashes across my mind when I read these posts. Sure John would do the same.

[Al R]

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and private thoughts. A taxi in Just Jane has been sorted for John's birthday and we're going to drop in at BBMF on spec when the day is right.

John did 11 years flying before high tone deafness scuppered him. He flew the Wimpey, Stirling, Lanc (90 Sqn) and Lincolns, ending up as Chief Fire Controller on Washingtons (115 Sqn), at time that he is still able to recall in amazing detail. His memories of the shortcomings of the early fire control computers are little short of amazing.

He did 'a tour and a bit' on Lancs and his time on them was 'hairy' because his crew was GH trained (radar) which meant his crew used to get pinged for quite a few jobs. He was called back off his honeymoon to do a job which annoyed him. He describes the Wellington as 'cold and creaky' and he can still describe the geodetic frame as if he was teaching on an OCU.

He hated Stirlings because it used to take up to 3 minutes to get the gear raised. Apparantly, after it was discovered that changes needed to be made to the Angle of Incidence, the nose was raised to its 22 feet off the ground but it was too late to fettle the production lines because the jigs had already been made. So they simply inserted a spacer between the wing mounting points and the top of the undercarriage legs. British :ok:!

Nothing worked properly in them until the gear was raised, which I assume refers to hydraulic pressure not being up to much. John says that at 10,000 feet though, it handled like a fighter and with a ballsy pilot it could lose a Spitfire 'if you didn't mind being bounced about a bit'. He got off them quickly and says '.. its just as well I did - otherwise I wouldn't be here'. He was the 'Chief Fire Controller' on the B29 and he loved 'em. They allowed trips to the US, coffee and a comfy seat.

[BEagle]

Hi Al,

Thanks for the update - I hope that the taxying session in Just Jane will really hit the spot for John.

It is very rare indeed to hear such clear memories of wartime bomber crews - and even more rare to hear about times on the Boeing Washington. Chief Fire Controller was certainly a very prestigious position to hold on the crew.

[Al R]

Hi Beagle,

It is going to take place in the next couple of weeks. John was 86 earlier this week and got the 'voucher' in the post - a very successful gift suggestion. :ok:

He was once the Adj on 20 Sqn (as WO AG, and when it had Hunters - in Singapore I think). His photographs are an amazing archive. I took him to the Harrier 40th the other week and although he hasn't had much to do with service life of late, he certainly did enjoy those 2 days.

[Al R]

The visit to East Kirkby took place yesterday and went down a storm. John was determined to get himself into the rear turret and just about did it; he said it was like going back 60 years in an instant. Thanks to all there for giving him such a great day - highly reccomended.

Lancaster taxy rides - Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre (http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/lancaster-taxy-rides/)

Incidentally, what Q do you need in order to taxy the Lancaster on private land - any?

[Icare9]

Good news and sounds to have been a wonderful birthday treat.
Any photos or was the smile too wide to capture in shot???!!!!!
Does John feel a bit more comfortable about ensuring his training and operational memories are shared in the "Gaining a Pilots Brevet in WW2" thread? I'm sure that he'll be welcomed aboard and once he gets in his stride, he may find it as addictive as the rest of us!!
I'm sure that everyone wants to understand how cold and lonely it must have been sitting and scouring the night skies for any sign of an attack... A real bravery to be responsible for the lives of your mates night after night. That forged a bond of comradeship almost as great as family.

[Al R]

John had some fots sent to him on a disc and I'm going to have alook at them next week. He was also Sqn Adj on 20 Sqn when it had Hunters. I spoke to him earlier this morning and he is turning the house upside down looking for his albums.

I'm not sure about the sharing, but we had a good old chat about the outbreak of War. It was Sunday morning, he said.. very sunny and he was making a wooden Hampden model with his mate, Donald Geoffrey. They listened to the PM and shrugged their shoulders. 5 minutes later, the air raid sirens went off and Donald went home in case his dad got cross.

They both joined up in 1942, John as an AG and Donald as a Flight Engineer. Donald went missing over Hannover in 1943. John still buys a small poppy each year, especially for his schoolmate who never got the chance to do what he later went on to do.

[Tandemrotor]

John still buys a small poppy each year, especially for his schoolmate who never got the chance to do what he later went on to do.

Please tell John, well done!

Young men of today will do exactly the same (tragically) For friends, and for all.

The greatest respect.

[kookabat]

Al,

As part of a merry band of (very much amateur) historians studying bits and pieces of Bomber Command's contribution to the war and more specifically of family members who took part, one of the most important things to me is that the stories are not lost. Even if it's just for your family archive, please please please document them in some way.

The experiences were unique and absolutely fascinating - and even more so if it is a family member who took part.

On another note - I was at East Kirkby for a taxi run myself in April. There was a veteran rear gunner on our run. Andrew Panton (who rides crewman in the back of the aeroplane) said he'd try to fit our veteran friend in the turret if he could, but that he might have difficulty given the cramped confines. Andrew then turned and discovered that the old gunner had already installed himself in the turret, with far less difficulty than any of the younger participants on the day. I guess it never really leaves you...

[Al R]

How does one go about harvesting this history - is there some sort of national project? I'd feel pretty daft setting up my video camera in the corner of the room and it certainly wouldn't be in keeping with what John would feel comfortable with, thats for sure. I tell my children to listen carefully to him and even now, the poignancy of his occasional thoughts strikes home. The story of his childhood mate, Donald, and how he simply dissapeared and is probably little more than a fading family footnote. But he was a person in his own right, just like us.. and as vibrant and as optoimistic and as aspirational as we all are. Its so terribly sad. I wonder how we would handle things today if our current losses ran into the hundreds of thousands.

You talk about the turret - John did exactly the same thing and he got himself in there with little difficulty apparantly, although he found the main spar a little difficult. What was nice was that someone contacted him afterwards to ask him if he'd like some shots that someone took on the day of him onboard and chatting upfront. We had the RBL around recently, and one of the forms asked what decorations had been awarded. John didn't even feel comfortable telling them about the DFM which he feels he probably earned for just 'sitting down'.

[kookabat]

How does one go about harvesting this history
It's as simple as writing something down whenever you hear an 'occasional thought'! Maybe write something in a notebook or something so that you can pass it on in the family should someone show an interest. It's these small moments that can reveal something interesting that pushes you off in another direction. Record them while you still can.

Earlier in the thread, Al, you said this: What he talks about is not the operational flying as such [...] but instead the esoteric craic, the gossip and the banter - the colour on the tapestry that we are going to lose because it wasn't and couldn't be properly captured and transcribed.
It's these stories that most fascinate me. You mght not be able to completely capture What It Was Like, but you can give it a red-hot go!
Eventually you might like to do things like researching service records or photos. There are a few websites and things around that could be of use; flick me a PM and I'll fill you in if you're interested.

Declaring my interest: I'm currently researching a great uncle who was a navigator with 467 Sqn. He was shot down and killed over Lille in May 1944 so obviously I never had the opportunity to talk to him about his experiences. So I've had to resort to letters and diaries and logbooks from the period (and reading the thoughts of veterans like Cliff and Reg on 'that other thread').

Even if you never share it with anyone outside of your family, at least it will be recorded somewhere for future generations. That way, men like John and Donald will not be forgotten.

[Al R]

I do jot down his thoughts, such as the noise the Wimpey airframe made when it got past a certain speed and the cock ups with the Sterling's gear and how the crews hated taking off in it because they weren't bale to raise the gear for ages. Perhaps a history doesn't need to be too involved, you're right.

[cockney steve]

It's the little snippets , like the ditty posted above by Cliff.

It gave me a hearty giggle, thinking of the total incongruity of the cold, noise, darkness, vibration and fear....then this crackly lament :}

the black humour of the times comes across.

Likewise the "appetiser" about the bike and the daughter. - One has to understand just how valuable a bike was in those days,as a means of transport.

Few people had cars or motorcycles, fewer were in working order and even fewer had fuel.

Please ask John to let us into his memories.

my father was a WW1 merchant seaman and was blinded....the most I could ever elicit was the cause was "gunflash"

He occasionally let drop the odd gem to a much younger Aussie Merchantman friend....such as
"Ah yes, Mombasa,- you could have a girl , in the street,against a cartwheel,.....for a box of matches........and again for the box :} "

but he'd never elaborate.....both of them long gone and the truth with them.

[doubledolphins]

Get on the phone and call them up. I did a few years ago. They can only say no.I wanted to get an old pathfinder pilot over from Australia a good look around. They were delighted to see him and gave us a full tour of the aeroplane. Needless to say he told them a thing or two. I don't think me being in the Senior Service gave me any advantage over any one else who asks for a visit on behalf of old crew. (Apart from calling them up on the mod phone network in the first place.)
Many, many. (about 20) years ago I also got a good look around by just turning up, via the public entrance. By chance we got talking to the adjutant, who on hearing all three of us were airline pilots, took us "over the rope" and gave us the full tour there and then. Think he thought we would give him a job. But as I said earlier. The best way to go about these things is head on. Ask the people that matter. Not all of us with nothing better to do on line.

(ref Mombassa, its now a couple of Ball Point pens and a disposable lighter. And if she was realy good a hotel soap as well. )

[Al R]

We dropped in and he had a great old time there.

I had lunch with him yesterday and he found an old album from his 20(R) days. He has lots of great fots, and this is a crappy reproduction (taken with mobile) of the aircrew at Tengah - John is on the drop tank.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/popprune/20R%20Shots/f7581961-1.jpg

I found this shot on the www, which is better than the snap I took with my phone. John is the middle of the three behind 'Boss Bacon' in the second row.

http://pacific-hunter-aviation.com.au/oz/images/duck-20sqn.jpg

John, centre, at the Battle of Britain bash at Tengah, 1965 or 6. Three ex AG WOs probably had a blast.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/popprune/20R%20Shots/e0a1f6b2.jpg

Finally, I have tried to contact the secretary of the 20 Sqn Association, but my e-mail keeps getting bounced back as destination invalid, or something. If anyone knows of an 20/Tengah Association which might be interesting to Joihn, I'd very much appreciate details (by PM if you wish).

Ever so finally, the 20(R) (?) Harrier which did the hover at the Mess last night.. at 1900 (ish)? You almost caused a pile up on the A1.

Sweet. :ok:

[Al R]

To bring the tale up to date, John is currently in Lincoln in the final moments of his life. There are many tales of the old and the bold slipping away unnoticed and uncared for, but John is peaceful and comfortable and surrounded by family and his many friends. I'm sure he is baling out with very few regrets and in his mind certain of being with his wife again who had just died when I posted this thread.

Subsequent to this thread, he saw a lot more of the modern air force and he was particularly thrilled to have a look around a Harrier (Kano, he mentioned your kindness for long afterwards). So, to everyone else too who made a suggestion, many thanks - we visited Just Jane, Elvington, Cottesmore, BBMF, Lincoln Air Museum and Duxford. Just knowing that people in his band of merry men cared.. it meant a lot to him.

[Danny42C]

Al R,

Thanks for bringing up these wonderful memories from six years back ! I have posted on the "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII" for the last three years; these old posts are well worth reading and I'll flag them up there.

Sadly, I did not venture "on line" till Jan '12 (although I'd got my first laptop six months before). Pity, because I might have helped a little, I think my old friend Flt Lt Niel Ker was secretary of a 20 Sqn Association around the '80s.

We had been together on 20 Sqn at Valley (Spits and Vampires) from '50 to late '51, when they disbanded (to reform later on Harriers).

The "W.O. ranks" mentioned by one of your contributors would be the short-lived system of "Four-Star Hennessey" ranks for NCO aircrew (it lived on as the Master Pilot/Nav etc. for a long time).

D.

[Al R]

Danny, many thanks. John died peacefully at lunchtime - he used to refer to them as jamjars. NOT popular?!

[Corporal Clott]

Sorry to hear your news Al...:(

[Hawk98]

I've only just read through this thread, but from what I've read John sounded like an amazing man, I'm sorry to hear of his passing :(


Tom

[Danny42C]

Al R,

So sorry. May he rest in peace (I'll probably be not long after him, hope we'll meet and have a good old natter).

Danny.