Was this unusual?

[Flapping_Madly]

Arrived LAX Air New Zealand 744. Nice landing--2 minute slow taxi. Stop. Message from Pilot--Sorry folks, there will be a delay we have to get a tug to tow us to the gate. My wife said how insulting to the pilot. Waited 5 minutes then moved. Stopped at an angle across the rear end of a big Virgin. Watched as vans came and went. Ditto small tractors. Large vans. Saloon cars. Gloves were delivered. Men with clip boards. After 20 minutes Pilot came on and said sorry about this but if you could see what we can see out the front you would think it was Monty Pythons Circus.

After 35 minutes we moved and connected to air bridge.

I was interested be the mass of officials lining the air bridge. About 6 with collapsed wheel chairs then about 30 more all with ID hanging round their necks or clip boards.

Then into Immigration. Ten finger prints and an Iris photo then locked in a room with food and drink and access to a not very clean toilet.

I must say I damn well object to being finger printed etc by a snappy individual when I was only in transit. Why the hell do they need to harvest data in this way when we were not even entering the damn police state.

Other thoughts. Do Jumbos have CCTV under their bellies so Pilots can see the ground forwards? Is Los Angeles the most untidy disorganized looking airport in the world? Vans, baggage carts, food trucks parked seemingly anywhere. Why was the Pilot not allowed to park the thing himself? I bet he's done it before.
Ain't curiosity a wonderful thing?:)

[Flapping_Madly]

Oh yes another thing. The plane was at the gate for over two hours. Great fun watching the cleaners hurling bags of waste and stuff about and guys climbing into the rubbish bins to collect all empty water bottles for recycling . It struck me as very odd that for the whole servicing time the power plant in the tail of the plane was belting out a plume of hot gas--at least there was no soot or smoke--just heat shimmering . How's that for Global warming. Good job oil has dropped in price faster than fuel surcharges. I thought planes usually hook up to mains power by cable these days. Wrong again !!:confused:

[Avman]

What you experienced at immigration is the norm in the USA. It's their way and tough sh*t.

There are a few airports in the USA, JFK & LAX being two of them, where it is mandatory for widebodied a/c to be towed into certain gates - because of the restricted space and little tolerance factor. In your case the a/c may have turned up a little earlier than the ground crew expected, hence the delay followed by a frenzy of activity.

I avoid transiting through the USA unless I intend to make a stopover.

[11Fan]

Sorry for your bad experience. Pity you had to go through that. :ugh:

It shouldn't be like this, but I'm beginning to become unfazed by this crap anymore. I'm not sure what that says.

Glad you're (presumably) home safe.

[L337]

No it was not unusual.

Just another normal day at LAX.

We do not have a camera.

Some gates at LAX are very tight for a 744. So we are towed onto those gates. But... my dim memory reminds me that a BA Jumbo, as in 747-200 I think, and it is a very dim memory, hit the jetty at LAX because they were blinded, and or confused by reflections of the sun reflecting off the guidance system. After that incident we have always been towed onto those certain gates affected.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It strikes me that Flapping Madly needs a dose of Valium or he will surely have a heart attack very soon.

At many airports that aircraft have to be towed on to their stand for many reasons. It has nothing to do with pilot proficiency; it's a common, every day occurrence. LAX is a busy place which makes Heathrow look like a club airfield.

<<I must say I damn well object to being finger printed etc by a snappy individual when I was only in transit.>>

Bet you'd be the first to moan if you were the subject of a terrorist attack at the airport..... I don't object at all and I feel very safe over there - much better than the UK system where just about anyone can get in.

US Immigration Officers are busy people but, treated as YOU would expect to be treated, like the normal human beings they are, they respond graciously, helpfully and with good humour. If you mouth off at them, expect the worst. My wife and I have travelled through LAX many times with ANZ and thoroughly enjoyed it every time.

[ProM]

LAX is a busy place which makes Heathrow look like a club airfield.

Really? I cannot find flights, only ranking by passenger data, but on that measure LHR is a fair amnount busier than LAX.

Busiest Airports - The Busiest Airports in the World (http://geography.about.com/od/urbaneconomicgeography/a/busiestairports.htm)

[eastern wiseguy]

HD.....I am a very regular traveller to the US.I still do not understand how taking a fingerprint will PREVENT a terrorist attack.Moreover I cannot understand WHY you need to be fingerprinted when you will be effectively locked in a lounge for two hours with NO possibility of leaving the secure area.

I find the whole thing sinister and ultimately Orwellian.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

ProM. I worked at Heathrow most of my life and I have visited LAX many times so I am fairly familiar with both airports. There are various ways that the "busy" factor is determined - by passengers, freight, aircraft movements, etc. I always think in terms of aircraft movements which I believe is the true indication of how "busy" a place is and LAX shifts considerably more aircraft in 24 hours than Heathrow. Last year LAX was running at about 1700 movements per day, a bit down on the previous year. By comparison, the Heathrow figure was around 1300 per day.

BAA always claims that Heathrow is the "World's Busiest", but that's only good for international passengers. In that respect I believe it even betters O'Hare... but O'hare has well over twice as many aircraft movements per day than Heathrow.

[radeng]

US Immigration varies enormously, depending which airport you using to enter. MIA and LAX have poor reputations: I fond ORD and DFW not at all bad, and PHX the best.

TSA at PHX I have found extremely fast, efficient, pleasant and courteous.

But unless you need to go to the USA, it seems generally easier to avoid the place. I read somewhere a year or two ago that a lot of people were transiting via Canada to South and Central America just to avoid the hassle.

[ProM]

HD I kind of gathered you might be familiar with LHR! As I said I could only find pax numbers so it was interesting what you said about flights

More generally
Personally i have found US immigration has improved over the last 12 months, but that may be just luck. In general though I think a lot of Brits are harsh on LHR and LGW because a lot of US airports are really badly organised.

Whether it be the silly shark-finned buses at DCW (I know the history but they are silly), having to collect bags twice at orlando, or everything about JFK,

My worst though was on a stop-over at Miami watching the clown's performance outside - crates falling off trucks and being ignored, tarpaulins loose and blowing around the gate areas etc

[lexxity]

Arrival at Terminal 7 JFK is great. Very quickly through immigration, very friendly and onto the little train. The train on which you can take bag trolleys. Are you listening ORD? Last two times I've used JFK we've landed and been out of the building with 20minutes. :ok: (We're always last off too because we have a child in tow and we take our time .)

[ProM]

OK lexxity- perhaps I should have added that its a few years since I went to JFK

[muppetbum]

I'm curious as to why they took ten fingerprints and an iris photo.
Its left and right index fingers and a webcam photo.

A spot of hyperbole perhaps?

[radeng]

Muppet,

You might have gone and cut somebody else's index finger off and use it instead of your own......

I wonder what they do if you have a cut on your finger that is nicely leaking fluid on to the glass?

[muppetbum]

Now admittimgly I've only experienced USA Immigration from the Canadian side , but the nice man there was wiping down the pad after use with sanitiser and even offered me hand cream when my fingertips were too dry to print properly.
most civilised!

[L337]

Its left and right index fingers and a webcam photo.


That is the "old" system. The new is to take all eight fingers, and a picture. Not all airports have the new system in place yet.

[muppetbum]

thats interesting to know, I'm surprised that the main Canada/USA borders weren't the first to have the new systems , although I guess that the fingerprinting etc doesn't apply to Canadian citizens.

Whats the thinking behind this change then ? I would have thought that the process could be toned down , not ramped up with the introduction of the ESTA system.

Apologies to OP for doubting them



<edit> Ok I've just been looking on the DHS website , soon you'll have to provide biometrics on LEAVING!!!
Jeez , reckon I've done my last trip to the land-of-the-repressed-and-completely-paranoid until I have my Canadian passport.

[Flapping_Madly]

I assure you it was four fingers right hand on to a strange bluey green glowing screen then right thumb then four fingers left then left thumb. I recall thinking at the time Oh bugger thats it for me then because my left thumb end got mangled and it works better than a thumb print ever could:)

[BelArgUSA]

I fully realize the problems of transit through LAX for NZ to Europe flights.
The problems are named TSA, Homeland Security, and US Immigration.
In most civilized countries, transit does not require passing through any of that.
Maybe standard "re-boarding" passenger security (metal detectors) is enough.
If I would be a AKL to UK passenger, I would always route through Asia.
xxx
Mexico should re-organize Tijuana as a transit facility for such flights.
And compete against LAX. Just a nice transit terminal and proper runway.
Duty free (NZ and UK passengers live for duty free)... Just the name...!
xxx
Talking about similar pains is transiting through MIA.
This for passengers from Central America going to Europe.
As suggested for Mexico, I would urge the Bahamas to consider doing same.
A nice runway and terminal transit facility in Freeport.
xxx
:}
Happy contrails

[radeng]

I seem to remember that some 4 or so years ago, Colin Powell reported to a Senate sub committee that the US had lost $35 billion a year from the loss of foreign tourists, transit passengers and students because of the immigration restrictions.

I suppose back then it didn't matter too much. These days, the economic considerations could be diffferent.

If you don't like the requirements, vote with your feet and go somewhere else. It will need an awful lot of people doing that to make any real economic impression that the US will need to recognise. Their country, their rules. You want to go there, you abide by their rules.

It would be somewhat more equal if the same rules were applied to US citizens coming to Europe, however. Just as Brazil did.

Do they take Gordon Brown's finger prints when he visits the US? And those of his cronies?

[Pax Vobiscum]

Nothing unusual for transit at LAX, it seems little has changed since I first went through in the early 90s. The US just don't 'get' transit, which is understandable since it is fairly unusual at most of their airports. I've generally found the immigration folks to be OK, I don't envy them their jobs.

Security at US airports (much like the rest of the world) is largely there to provide the impression that 'something is being done' - but in terms of preventing undesirables entering the country, don't forget they have nearly 6,000 miles of (mostly) unsecured borders.

Transit-unfriendly airports are certainly not confined to the US, however - see my recent posting about FCO for example (and not many people speak highly of LHR in this respect).

[TightSlot]

Flapping_Madly - I work ANZ to LAX weekly, so will try and help.

NZ1 & NZ2 are transit flights at LAX, and therefore always use the same gate, as this is where the Transit Lounge is located: That particular gate always requires a tow-on by a tug. I can only guess that in your instance, the ground crew were in some way unprepared for your arrival, or equipment/personnel from another flight/gate were obstructing your access to stand. This is not a common event.

NZ1 & NZ2 are, as far as I'm aware, the only two flights in the entire USA that are permitted to make use of an international transit lounge. Normal practice for every other international connection, at all US airports is to disembark, collect bags, clear Immigration and Customs and then check-in all over again. If anybody is aware of others, I'd be fascinated to hear of them.

The officials on the jetway are there for a combination of reasons: The transit needs to be carefully managed to comply with US CBP (Customs & Border Protection - the agency that is responsible for both Immigration and Customs officers) requirements. If ANZ fail to comply, there is a very real risk that the transit facility will be withdrawn.

I can't comment on the immigration process itself - I know that many people find the paperwork and procedures maddening: That part of me that gets upset by seemingly pointless bureaucracy and security procedures throughout the world was cauterized many, many years ago - I have become, comfortably numb. The only absolute is that nobody in authority, anywhere in the world, cares even for a nanosecond what I think about anything - a bleak, but realistic outlook that if maintained, means that you may get messed around, but you'll at least never be surprised.

[eightyknots]

Didn't we used to use a transit lounge for our pax at Sanford in the old Britannia days Tightslot? I'm sure I remember SFB as a crewchange enroute to CUN.

Hope you're enjoying life!:)

[Flapping_Madly]

TightSlot

Therefore you may well have been on my recent flight---oh no if you had you would recall the incident. Nevermind all I wish to say is thank you to the ANZ Heathrow based cabin crew. Obviously I am only SLF so I have not flown as often as most on Pprune --flights only in hundreds--but I think I can say they are the best I have ever had the pleasure of flying with.
Don't get me wrong most cabin crew on any airline do a fine job most of the time but the ANZ LHR based crews are just a sharp edge better. And doing two or three legs in quick succession aids comparison. The food is good out of LHR and LAX too. Just my two pennorth.

Thanks to all for reponses.:ok:

[TightSlot]

Thanks for your thanks, which I'll pass on...

80Kts - I think you're right on the money. The reason (I believe) that the Transit Lounge facility existed was because the charter airlines paid for it to be built at that airport (and I also believe that they more or less paid for the airport itself, which was cessna-world with long concrete before they got there - please correct me if I'm wrong)

So, that's one, anybody know of any others?

[MrSydney]

I fly into LAX fairly often on NZ from SYD via AKL so know the drill. In 99% of cases, the a/c is tugged into the gate which you never see at SYD or AKL as the gate area at both airports are much larger. Remember LAX was built for 707and DC8s. There are certain gates at Terminal 2 that cannot take the 747.

Tightslot Does NZ1/2 use the gate nearest to the elevated roadway?

I actually find the Immigration staff at LAX to be very pleasant indeed. The problem is when you get KLM, AF, VS all arriving at the same time. I had an unpeasant experience two years ago when, due to a compuer glitch it took 5hours to get thru Immigration bu these things happen.

I think the LHR based NZ crew are just fantastic. They just have that edge over the AKL crew. I did NZ1/2 last year with stops in LAX and i had simply the best crews ever on NZ and i have flown NZ hundreds of times - having said that, I have never ever had a bad crew in NZ.

Tightslot Another question....which do you enjoy the most LHR -LAX or LAX LHR?. My favourite is LHR LAX in J on a cloudless say - those views are just superb/ That combined with the superb in flight service, Kiwi wines. IFE, etc. I will flying with you folks again in June. I cannot wait

Cheers

[WHBM]

I very first arrived at LAX in 1978, on BA in the days when they chartered an Air New Zealand DC-10 for the flight from London. Guess what, we were towed in to the gate. I have also been towed in there many times since, but to be honest cannot recall anywhere else.

Air NZ uses Terminal 2, just like BA did way back then in 1978. As I understand it the configuration of the gates and the tight margins with the piers of T1 and T3 means that widebody aircraft are required to be towed to gate. A number of the other terminals there are direct parking, but the way the layout was done when the main LAX terminals were designed and built in the early 1960s (by LA architects Pereira & Luckman, who back on that 1978 trip nearly offered me a job) means it is not really possible to realign things without demolishing the complete terminal and starting again. Miami is another airport with a terminal design from the same period and style, and they have gone down the complete rebuild route in recent years.

Regarding the disorganisation and delay by the ground team if you are not perfectly to time, this seems in my experience to be a factor I can only associate with the salary of the airport director, in inverse proportion. At those places where they are very highly paid for their organisational skills (eg Heathrow, LAX) it is always a shambles if you turn up one minute early (make you wait) or one minute late (sent to the back of the queue). Yes, this precision is expected after a 6,000 mile 12-hour flight. Meanwhile at those points where the top management receive more realistic salaries for their performance (eg many airports in Asia) the ground crew always seem on hand whenever you taxi in. Strange !

[radeng]

WHBM,

is it a case that most 'airport managers' know little about airports, but are well qualified as managers because they have an MBA? They thus believe that they can manage anything, especially that which they do not understand. Look at the UK's NHS and railway companies for other examples

[PaperTiger]

There have been a number of expensive doinks over the years in the notorious "alleyways" at LAX. Between the international terminal and the AA one there is no room for error. Everything gets towed in and out.

Consider yourself lucky you weren't banished to the Western apron :uhoh: .

(My blood pressure prevents me from commenting on the immigration umm... procedure.)