LAA/PFA. Disorganised?

[Flintstone]

Just how well organised are the LAA?

I ask because for some time now I've been considering an aircraft or share and have tried to use the LAA and strut websites to see what's available. Yes, I could join up before buying the aircraft but I'd prefer to see if there's anything that suits me before committing to them.

The LAA website seems to be updated, at least in terms of the magazine, in a pretty slapdash fashion. I'm fairly certain the March classifieds have been online for well over a month as have previous editions and my email last year to the LAA asking when the site would be updated didn't even warrant a reply (hardly going to encourage me to give them any membership fees now is it?).

As for the strut websites some of them are woefully out of date*. I'm pretty sure one of them still had a report from christmas 2007 when I last looked but I suppose that's marginally better than those that either don't exist (thirteen or fourteen of the links yield only the message "There is no site for this strut"), are still under construction or have only a homepage. To be honest it all makes me think I'd be better off going my own way, I'm certainly not getting much encouragement to join up that's for sure.

If the reason is a lack of interest then I'm afraid they're on a downward spiral. Ignoring emails from would-be members and empty websites will just make the situation worse.



* Edit: I just visited one marked "Last modified 31.12.06"

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's a voluntary organisation, running to a tight budget, and many people refuse to join unless they really have to, rather than joining and helping. Given all that, hardly surprising really.

G

[will5023]

The LAA is a good organisation to belong to if you own an aircraft that runs on an LAA permit to fly, they have a good engineering section, which although sometimes stretched does a good job on the whole, and now has extra staff to help with the growing numbers of aircraft on a permit. The magazine is first class and comes monthly, I will admit that the "Struts" are a lottery as to which is the most active to you, however these are an off-shoot of the LAA and not organised by them, however they do make for meeting points etc.
There is a wealth of knowledge within the ranks and most problems can usually be solved by either an inspector or a knowledgable member, they also have a Pilot Coaching Scheme to help with post PPL training, type conversions, differance training and bi-annual flights etc. I'm suprised to hear that you did not get a response to your e-mail, the LAA main office is usually good at responding. The web site is being worked on, and is reconised as being in need of up-dating, however just because the web site is not flashy does not mean it is a bad organisation.
If you PM mean address I'll send you a back copy of the magazine to give you an insite. Like all organisations they are what you make of them, and I'm happy with the LAA's approach to afforable flying.

Will.

[hatzflyer]

Flintstone, What you have to ask yourself is there any other organisation that will do what you ask of the LAA ?
By that I mean,would the CAA or AOPA or anyone else be better placed to help you?
The LAA are unique but not perfect,they are staffed by human beings after all!
There are limitations with LAA aircraft but then light aircraft are all a compramise anyway and it really depends on what type of flying you want to do.
If you can't find a "strut" near you,there is a list of inspectors on the website and they will know who flies what in your area. I'm sure a phone call will open a whole new world for you.

You can PM me if you want and I'll put you in touch.:)

[Steve N]

Struts are affiliated to LAA not run or controlled by it in any way. Some like Devon are huge with over 200 members. Some like ours in Bristol are more modest with 55 members. We produce a monthly newletter but our website is updated as and we have someone that can do it. We charge £10 a year membership so do the sums and you can see we don't have cash for professional websites. Despite that we run 10 meetings a year each with a visiting speaker. We also hosted 2 ATSOCAS meetings, A GPS awareness evening and will host an airspace infringment meeting in June. All of these are for the pilots in the region not just LAA. Go to your local strut, and get involved. You will be amazed what is actually going on.

[Rod1]

The LAA is a member’s organisation which is 8200 strong. It tends to fall by doing things “MEMBERS ONLY” and appearing unapproachable to non members. The Engineering side is first class and there is a huge pool of expertise within the membership which offers help. The inspectors, in particular, are very good, and often charge very little above expenses.

The struts are not part of the LAA and are small groups who are not well resourced. I do not know what area you are in but if you are midlands based and would like to meet up, have a look at some LAA aircraft and then get an introduction to the local strut I would be happy to help.

The only other similar organisation in the UK is the BMAA, who have a much better PR / Web setup but are restricted to sub 450kg machines and are ½ the size of the LAA. That said, they are a great bunch of guys and have a younger membership and a more modern approach.

Rod1

[Humaround]

The LAA runs on a shoestring. Ordinary membership is only £48pa which also covers the cost a well-worthwhile monthly magazine, which would probably cost around £48 pa on its own. OK, it's probably not the very best aviation magazine but it's much stronger on owner maintenance than any other UK magazine.

The website is second-rate, nowhere near as slick as most. But you have to remember that the LAA don't have a large budget to run it. Don't judge the LAA by the quality of the website (although members never tire of warning the LAA that people will do that anyway!)

The Strut system works well around here (Gloster Strut) because certain people work tirelessly and for free to make it so (tip hat to Harry). It's a fantastic resource for people who are building their aircraft or maintaining it themselves.

Is the LAA perfect? No, of course not. Could it be improved? Certainly - but ask yourself - if the LAA was perfect, and then you joined it, would it still be perfect?

[Flintstone]

Strangely enough Gloster, Devon and Bristol were three of the few strut sites that seem to me to have all their shi.........stuff in one sock, no surprise then that some of you quote them/yourselves as being the most pro-active and replied to this thread so quickly. My nearest would be Hertfordshire, one of the least impressive in my opinion. Surprising really, being dahn sarf with more bodies to call upon I'd imagined them to be one of the more active struts.


Don't judge the LAA by the quality of the website (although members never tire of warning the LAA that people will do that anyway!)

Ah, but there's the rub. These days anyone who's anyone uses t'interweb and you have to speculate to accumulate. Most people would rather join what appears to be a decently run organisation than take the chance of joining an (apparently) shabby one and putting heaps of time and effort into changing it with no guarantee of success. Having been there before I'm pretty reluctant to do so again.

Much as I'd love to own a permit aircraft (just missed out on my dream, an Isaacs Fury) it's looking to me like I'd be better off with a share in a well organised syndicate on something on a CofA.

[peter272]

I own a CofA machine but am a member of the Devon Strut.

The reason for joining them is quite simply that they organise the sort of flying I like doing. I don't go for massive IFR touring otherwise I'd join something else.

I do understand that Herts Strut is trying to rebuild itself, though.

[Mike Cross]

It's a matter of what you want to do. I'm a member of LAA and AOPA UK.

I fly a Permit aircraft, which greatly reduces costs and means that I can fly much more often and at lower cost than I would if I were flying one on a C of A. Much of the cost saving comes from being able to do a large part of the ongoing maintenance yourself rather than paying someone else to do it.

If you don't want to get involved and prefer to pay someone else to do the work then a Permit Aircraft and the LAA is perhaps not for you.

However we all occupy the same sky and are subject to the same laws so I urge you to join at least one organisation who will use your support to campaign on your behalf and preserve your freedoms.

As others have pointed out the Struts are autonomous organisations afilliated to the LAA, they are not owned by or part of the LAA. One of their main purposes is to provide a social forum for their members in the local area.

[Flintstone]

Spannering on an aircraft isn't a problem for me, I'm more than happy to get stuck in and have a licensed engineer and LAA inspector friend to call on when I get stuck. I've worked on aircraft before (under an engineer to part fund my own licence) and helped rebuild a couple too. In fact I'd prefer a permit aircraft of my own rather than a share in one but as an outsider looking in the LAA just doesn't come across as a terribly well organised...... um, organisation. Working in a commercial aviation environment I'm used to things to do with aeroplanes being 'just so'. The impression given by the LAA is a bit shambolic and while I'm very sorry if that offends some of the members who might consider it otherwise that's the picture presented to those of us looking in.

Imagine you were out for a drink and saw two pubs. One the picture of English pubness with a thatched roof, beer garden and roses round the door with real ale on tap drawn on hand pumps from the cellar by a buxom wench. The other with half the windows boarded up, a St George flag draped from an upstairs window and a hand-painted banner on a bedsheet across the front of the building proclaiming "WWF Death Match Cage Fighting Every Night". Tell me, would you head straight for 'Ye Olde Bull' or make for 'The Builders Bumcrack' thinking to yourself 'I'm going to make this a better place by discussing theology with the barman'?

An extreme analogy I'll admit but first impressions are important.;)

[Rod1]

Ok one last comment. If you buy and LAA aircraft and use you inspector friend then your entire contact to run the aircraft with LAA head office will be a permit renewal pack, which you will produce, your inspector will sign and you will post to LAA HQ. If you fill it in right (which is not at all hard) you will get your renewal by return of post. The rest of the “LAA world” can then be completely ignored if it is not to your taste. The Engineering side is very very good…

Rod1

[Flintstone]

Rod.

It's not me not wanting anything to do with them. Quite the opposite. I've written via the main website and also called people at one of the struts with no response. See it from the outsiders point of view. A disjointed public face and no replies to enquiries.

What would your impression be?

Genghis. That noise was your letterbox rattling.

[Rod1]

Flintstone

And how many members have offered to help you on this thread…

Rod1

[Flintstone]

Quite a few and that's very much appreciated. I get a feeling though that I could deal with those like-minded souls on a one to one basis and enjoy flying with them while still waiting to hear from the organisation.

Please re-read my posts, I'm not criticising Joe Bloggs but rather the impression the LAA 'body-corporate' presents. You wrote "It tends to fall by doing things “MEMBERS ONLY” and appearing unapproachable to non members". That's the part that prompted me to ask my original question so it seems we agree.

[Rod1]

I have spent many years trying to get the PR / web / forum improved and have largely given up. The fact remains though that it is a member’s organisation and your contact with LAA HQ will be virtually nil unless you volunteer to help. In short, if you do go for an LAA aircraft the only thing that you have to have is a permit and that side of the organisation, although invisible to non members, is very good. I am not at all surprised that the PR/Marketing side is putting you off but I can advise you on how to join and make your inspector happy. If you join through him he will get 6 months free membership!

Rod1

[hatzflyer]

Flintstone, what is your hidden agenda? You post this question seemingly innocently.
You get plenty of offers of help.
You then let it slip that you are used to doing maintainance with the help of a LAA inspector.
SO.. you are aquainted with LAA procedures,you have contacts within the LAA and certainly have access to the answers that you seek.
Therefor I can only assume that you have come on here to winge and join the LAA bashing brigade.
I offered you help and said you should PM me if you needed further help.
You had 30yrs of experience at your fingertips from me alone. Others have offered help and there is probably more experiance available about aircraft ownership from within the LAA ,covering everything from microlights,giros,aerobatic types,touring types right up to very efficient 4 seat designs ,than ANY other organisation in the U.K.

I made a point that the LAA is not perfect,and the website is the prime example,but did you offer help? suggestions? ideas? no just winges.

This wingeing is exactly the bad publicity that you are winging about.Its a downward spiral..and not helpfull other than it has highlighted to others how much help is available from within the LAA.

And final rant..Most clubs /golf courses etc don't let you play unless you are a member,why should the LAA be any different? After all you've clearly had the oppertunity to have a look at what is available.:ugh:

[Jodelman]

LAA disorganised?

That was your initial question and I would disagree strongly. It is trying hard to make flying affordable and to do that there have to be priorities. Those priorities may not be the ones you would have chosen but I, for one, would rather the resources available were spent on providing an excellent engineering service and protecting our right to fly with EASA and the CAA than in a flashy website. Just my opinion.

I am also responsible for one of the Strut websites, not because I know what I'm doing but because there is nobody else in the Strut willing to do it. The site gives basic information on our meetings and how to get there. It would seem Flintstone would prefer us to have no presence on the web. Perhaps that's a good idea - it would certainly save me some time!

[Mike Cross]

Working in a commercial aviation environment I'm used to things to do with aeroplanes being 'just so'. The impression given by the LAA is a bit shambolic and while I'm very sorry if that offends some of the members who might consider it otherwise that's the picture presented to those of us looking in.


We can all present a partisan view. Having the job done by a licensed engineer does not make it "just so", witness the pair of pliers I found on top of one of the cylinders following maintenance and the occaison when I collected it after maintenance to find the elevator trim totally misrigged. It leapt off the ground too quickly and I had to use a lot of forward stick pressure while making a very quick circuit. It would be unwise to stand on a platform that suggests everything in CAA land is rosy and everything in LAA land is not. The accident statistics do not support such a view.

I can assure you that my own dealings with LAA engineering do not suggest anything shambolic. I'm old and canny enough not to entrust my life to shambolic practices.

Back to your original question:-
"Just how well organised are the LAA?"

The answer I'd suggest is as well as they need to be. Sure, in any organisation you can throw loads of money at a swish website, corporate communications, lots of good looking secretaries and a palatial head office. We're far too stingy to do that;)

[Flintstone]

hartzflyer.

Clearly the LAA is something of importance to you but in your haste to defend them you have made several (erroneous) assumptions leading to your self-confessed rant. In fairness these were based upon the (limited) information that I gave but had I anticipated accusations of conspiracy I'd have bored you with my life story from the outset. To help alleviate your blood pressure though I'll amplify.

I know someone who is a LAME and LAA inspector and offered this information freely so nothing was 'let slip' at all. No hidden agenda there, not even discussed this with him as we only bump into each other a couple of times a year so might we dispense with the melodrama please? My spannering experience goes back to my having worked in a hangar, in Australia so no LAA connection, many years ago to fund my training.

....you are aquainted with LAA procedures....No. I am not and nowhere have I written that I am. If I were I would have said so and not have asked my questions here. I'm not in the habit of wasting my or anyone elses time. If you choose to disbelieve me click on my name there <<<<, select 'Find more posts by Flintstone' and see if I've ever shown signs of anti-LAA/PFA in the past. Surely if I'm orchestrating a campaign against them I'll have slated them here at some other time in my ten year PPRuNe membership?

You write that you "assume" that I'm here to "winge" (sic) and "bash". A wise old aviator once told me that after a junior officer with a map and compass the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption. What I do seem to be here for is a keyboard whipping for having the temerity to question the LAA's accessibility and (lack of) reaction to potential members which I have to say is an interesting way to win hearts and minds.

I made a point that the LAA is not perfect,and the website is the prime example,but did you offer help? suggestions? ideas? no just winges.

It's your association, not mine. I find it peculiar that someone should consider it the responsibility of non-members to offer fixes. In any event I've read and re-read the thread and cannot see where I was asked for suggestions though I'd have thought my comments highlighting where I'd had difficulty came pretty close. If you'd like me to give them in a step-by-step format well, making access for would-be members better/easier and replying to them when they enquire might be a good place to start. The way some struts present themselves to the outside world smacks of cliqueiness and I'm sorry if that offends but I'm giving an outsiders view. Indeed at least one contributor/member in this thread has alluded to this as have several others by way of PMs.

Hatzflyer. To borrow your own analogy if you wanted to join the golf club and they treated you in the same manner would you still want to join? I actually attended a strut night once about five years ago. In the half an hour before I gave up and left how many people spoke to me? I'll leave you to guess but here's a clue, the answer is less than one. Add to that my unanswered emails and, it has to be said, a bit of an over-reaction from some on here and it's in danger of appearing to be an unfriendly environment.

Whingeing the cause of the downward spiral? No. What you describe as whingeing is a reaction to the LAA's behaviour not an out-of-the-blue decision on my part to slate an organisation at random (though I confess that the Womens Institute is in line for a stiff letter if they don't respond with some jam recipes soon). Might I have felt the need to express my opinion (whinge) had the LAA answered my queries? Physician, heal thyself. You're seeing thngs that aren't there. Clearly the LAA is something you care about but accusing me of things I've neither said nor done are hardly going to encourage me or others into the fold now are they? As for not contacting you well I'm sorry you feel offended that I didn't accept your kind offer immediately but I can only correspond with so many people at a time and I thank those of you who have answered me privately.



It would seem Flintstone would prefer us to have no presence on the web.

Quite the opposite. I tried to use the web to gain information although you may have a point. Following a link that goes nowhere is perhaps more frustrating than there being no link at all.

Mike. Points taken. By 'just so' I meant that I'm used to flying in an environment where information is immediately forthcoming. If I want information on (say) a remote destination it's at my fingertips. If I need an engineer's explanation of a component it's there. I appreciate that flying for fun moves at a slower pace but come on, so far it's like pulling teeth. Anyone would think it's all meant to be a secret. You can also tell me the truth, there are really good looking secretaries. Aren't there?

[Mike Cross]

You can also tell me the truth, there are really good looking secretaries. Aren't there?

If I told you that I'd have to kill you. :}

[will5023]

Flintstone, in general the LAA is a good organisation, you don't see the CAA being defended so strongly, do you ! ? The main reason for it is to make flying afforable, and it is not run totally on a shoe string and has a large office and staff like any other organisation. In terms of direction, well the CAA are giving us a lot more responsibility in Light aircraft terms, new types etc, the magazine is first rate, some things left to sort are the image, web PR etc and the rally. The web etc needs money and time, and with thousands of members and planes to look after, the money has to be allocated sensibley. This does not mean that the public face has been ignored, look at last years LAA event at Old Warden,politicians, press etc....Rome can not be built in a day and technology changes every five minutes !!
Don't take any thing too personally after all this is PPRune and sharp responses go with the territory ! shame you missed the Issacs Fury, lovely little plane good luck with your shearch.

[javelin]

To me, the LAA is a bit of a Curate's Egg.

There are aspects of it that are superb - I like the relaxed environment, I like the camaraderie, the rapid response from other members when questions or help is asked for on the BB.

There are many other resources out on the web if you need specific information - information which is outside of the remit of the LAA.

One of the frustrations is the inability to build and operate designs how they were originally designed, warts and all - i.e. the lack of an Experimental category, however that may be one of the benefits of EASA as that may come in in the near future.

On balance, at present, the LAA offers a simple, effective and economical way of safely operating homebuilt and vintage types in the UK.

If you want a full service maintenance backup, stay with a C of A type, however, over the course of 10 years or more of owning and operating several C of A aeroplanes, they had more hidden horrors due to M3 maintenance than ANY permit aeroplane I have owned. The LAA system generally ensures better and more conscientious maintenance than a bonus driven, time important, very expensive licensed system.

If you want to own and operate an interesting aeroplane, meet interesting and - er - unique characters and get involved, forget the apparent shortcomings of the LAA, if not............

Enjoy you Challenger and get a Cirrus :ok:

[Flintstone]

will, Javelin. Mike and others. Thanks for the helpful repsonses. I'd hoped the LAA to be as you describe it so perhaps another crack at a strut night is on the cards.

In the meantime if you hear of anything for sale I'm all ears...............



Edit: Just checked the LAA site and see the April Classifieds have been posted up. Off for a look, fingers crossed.

Second Edit: The link doesn't work!! I'm saying nuffin.

[mikehallam]

Mr. Flintstone(ey hearted).

You've obviously got too much time to spare & thus WHINGE, so are either unemployed & angry, or in a cushy little number and have no mercy for others.

I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.

p.s. And if you're so knowledgable re web design they do need volunteers to sort it out.

mikehallam.

[rohmer]

Flintstone, I just emailed LAA HQ Admin - the April adverts page is now working. Took 2 minutes to sort out. Service quality in question? I don't think so.

[Flintstone]

I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.

I thought older people were supposed to be the last bastion of good manners. Are you this rude to people face to face or only from the safety of the internet? I've not been rude to you, kindly afford me the same courtesy.

rohmer. So I saw. Also noted that the April ads appeared soon after this thread so somebody is listening. Maybe there's hope after all.

[Zulu Alpha]

Following up on the golf club analogy.

The LAA is like the golf club that has a dirt car park and an old but comfortable wooden clubhouse. The golf course is immaculate and a great place to learn new skills with members who are prepared to spend their time helping you because they love their golf. Its run by the members for the members.

Much rather this than some modern chrome and brick ediface with expensive dues, a so-so course and every little thing being charged at a huge rate to pay for the upkeep of the whole thing because its all a commercial concern.

I like the LAA as it is... and long may it stay this way. I am able to find all I need on the LAA website so no need to raise my subscription to improve it with Flash animations etc etc.

On the other hand, if you'd like to join and offer your services to help improve something then we'll all welcome you.

ZA

[Rod1]

“April ads appeared soon after this thread so somebody is listening”

I posted a link to this thread on the LAA forum, so we will see…

Rod1

[Flintstone]

if you'd like to join ................ we'll all welcome you.



Oh, I can think of at least one of your members who might take issue with that ;)

[jonkil]

I have been a LAA member for years (actually PFA :bored:) before that. It is only in the last 5 years I have owned and operated a LAA type, this association has allowed and permitted me an avenue to exercise the privileges of flight in an affordable fashion in this time, so much so that I fly from my home field in North West Ireland to all over the UK and Ireland and indeed to Europe, accumulate well in excess of 250 flying hours per year at a mere fraction of the cost of a C of A type, this has to be good news for the likes of me who cannot afford the "traditional" route. I am in no way interested in circuit bashing in an aircraft burning fuel like it is going out of fashion just to keep a license current, rather take in a flight of 1000NM, VFR all the way at a cost that I can afford.
So to answer your question ! , no the LAA is not disorganised at all, it is a company that is run for its members unlike a government body that swallows up money that nobody gives a damn about.
So if like me you want to fly at an affordable cost then the LAA is the avenue that will allow this to happen, if not then the avenue of a share in a C of A aircraft may just be for you.
You earn your money, you spend it as you see fit, You and I may see it differently, does not mean that either of us is wrong.
Good luck in what you decide.

Jon

[Crash one]

Mr. Flintstone(ey hearted).

You've obviously got too much time to spare & thus WHINGE, so are either unemployed & angry, or in a cushy little number and have no mercy for others.

I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.

p.s. And if you're so knowledgable re web design they do need volunteers to sort it out.

mikehallam.(Quote)

Sorry, but that is not really on, is it?
No wonder the poor sod is complaining about attitude.
No doubt there are Struts that have old easy chairs outside the "dispersal" hut / dirt carpark thing. At the same time some will be run by "Jobsworth" types intent on empire building. Take yr pick.
By & large the LAA is an excellent concept & as has been said, the engineering side works perfectly, which is all that really matters.
My advice would be, join, find your aircraft, find your inspector, fly, & see what else it has that fits you.

PS can someone tell me how to do the "quote" thing properly?

[hatzflyer]

Flintstone, we appear to have got of on the wrong foot and I was wrong to make assumptions for which I apologise:uhoh:.
Not that its any defence on my part, but the LAA comes in for a lot of undeserved critism,primarily from people that think of it as an alternative to the CAA or AOPA, which it is not.
The LAA is NOT a commercial organisation, it is an association owned by the members for the members benefit and as such is not beholding to all and sundry . It is only right that to benefit one should be a member,especially as it costs so little to join,if after a year you find no benefit I would not expect you to renew.
However many others do benefit by default because the LAA does a huge amount of work behind the scenes on airways easa etc. In fact they do as much as AOPA (some would say more).

Are the LAA perfect? no
Are they above average/ average?....harder to answer because there is no direct comparison.

CAA administer airworthiness but don't lobby for us (and they seem hell bent on bankrupting us all)

AOPA...good on lobbying etc but no use in terms of certifying aircraft


EAA.. excellent organisation but not recognised over here...

By default that leaves only the LAA .

The trouble is you really have to join before you realise the benefits and I concede that is a perceived problem by most .Couple that with the fact that forums like this are full of so called experts on anything and they all know more/better than you and you can see (maybe) why I get so pi***d!

The offer of help still stands!

[Flintstone]

Crash one, thanks for the sympathy vote. All warm and fuzzy now. Sending you a PM explaining the quote function.

hatzflyer. Meh, nobody died and there's always room (both ways) to take a step back and start again. I'd obviously no idea of the history of complaints but if the LAA is anything like other hobby clubs I should have guessed. Having been membership secretary and treasurer of the British Association Of Somethingorother I've seen it all before. Once I've whittled my questions down to a couple of thousand I'd like to drop you a PM.

One last request. Could someone do something with whatever thread was started on the LAA forum please? The hate mail is overloading my inbox.

Ta.

[Genghis the Engineer]

One last request. Could someone do something with whatever thread was started on the LAA forum please? The hate mail is overloading my inbox.

Ah, the joys of association politics. Try working for one!

G

[cockney steve]

I have some sympathy with Mr. flintstone.....I, too "ran the figures" around the time the PFA spent a lot of dosh "rebranding to "LAA" (as in laa laa land, anyone? :} )

I had known of the PFA for years, the name said what it did, on the tin. IMHO, that could have been better directedcash and energy....but i'm not a "marketing man" "growing the brand"

Yes, I thought the website a bit shambolic, non-intuitive, disjointed.

BUT that's the way things are. I am a member of a professional organisation (fish-fryers! ) yes, we suffer the same problems.

many non-members directly benefit from the organisation's representation, but won't join as they don't see anything "in it for me"

most think that their membership fees "should" buy a totally unrealistic level of services.

most members will NOT volunteer to put in anything other than their "subs".

the altruistic volunteer committee members (that's me!) kick crap uphill, trying to get feedback from members, when we DO organise something, there's poor support and masses of lame excuses.

Branch meetings (like Struts) are often poorly attended, the whingers complain about "the old school" or "clique" attempting to run things......but then don't volunteer to take on a role where thay could have positive influence.

Thus we have the situation where a national organisation, relying heavily on unpaid, volunteer officers, becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place........luckily, we found a go-ahead, strong businessman who was prepared to put something back into the organisation he believes in.
perhaps the LAA has similar problems?

Flintstone. Don't expect to be "welcomed with open arms"..... your first experience suggests that was your expectation,- well, this may surprise you, but other big, grown men are equally shy of strangers as you were :O Whilst you stood round for half an hour thinking "load of stuck-up, cliquey sods, don't want to know me"......they were thinking
" arrogant newbie thinks he's too good for us, standoffish bugger hasn't said a word to a soul" :uhoh:

SO! When you give it another go, put on a smile, walk up to a group , extend your hand to the noisiest one and introduce yourself," Hi, I'm Flintstone, new around here, can any of you tell me who runs this Strut"
I'm sure that if YOU are prepared to "break the ice" in such a fashion, you'll be well rewarded.

Even now, I find it hard to walk up to a stranger , introduce myself and enquire about the "newbie's" interest in the trade......but I've made several good friends as a result :)

[Flintstone]

Steve, thanks for the tips but I tried that at the time. I'm no shrinking violet however after the third rebuff realised I was getting nowhere. One person even asked who'd invited me as if membership were by recommendation only. I thought I'd mistakenly gatecrashed the Freemasons.

Ah well. Maybe I'll conduct a coup on the Hertfordshire strut, especially if they're trying to reform. Now is when they'll be at their weakest and I could make a bid for control, build my own website, take over and rule the world by christmas. People with names rhyming with mikehallam need not apply, they're already blackballed ;)

Oh, Steve. Just one question if you don't mind. How come saveloy skins don't give that nice crack when you bite through them any more?

[cockney steve]

Ah! Saveloys! :ok: It's many years and a distant memory when I last had a "Sav"....(Us northerners eat jumbo Sausages ;) )

I'd suspect the formulation of the skin has been modified either to keep costs down, improve split-resistance of mollify the elf and safety mob.
Another possibility is that they're kept in a humidified hot-box and thus don't dry to that satisfying crispness.

you didn't say that you'd had 3 rebuffs :eek: I think Groucho Marx nailed that,succinctly.

"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have ME as a member"

yea, taking over a moribund Strut seems a good idea!-perhaps you could name it the"Not Available Always, " Strut....slogan (thumb to nose and wiggling fingers) "Naa Naaa Na Naa Naaa :}

They sound like a load of "up their own ar5e" types, where you went- their loss!-good luck in your endeavours, and remember tat it's easier to change things from the inside.-A live-wire will attract others to displace dead wood and rejuvinate the organisation.

[mikehallam]

At least I don't shelter behind a pseudonym when reacting to your whinging.

mikehallam.

[Mike Cross]

Mike, you're exactly the person we need to be the welcoming face of the LAA and spearhead a new membership drive.

Did you ever consider a career in the Diplomatic Corps perchance?

[mikehallam]

Oh, Mike, Just about the same as you I think :rolleyes:

[Flintstone]

Mike (Hallam).

Is that the best you can come up with? After your crass and obnoxious behaviour for which you can't even apologise your parting shot is 'Ner ner ner'? Such incisive and scintillating repartee.

I've had this moniker for over a decade. Everyone in my regular forums knows who I am so I'm hardly hiding. There might be an argument that those posting under their real name merely seek the publicity of seeing themselves on the net to compensate for something lacking in their 'real' lives but I'm sure that's not your motive.

Fact is I've received several very supportive PM's giving me some extremely useful information and advice the gist of them all being to join the LAA, use it as little as I need to (mainly for the excellent engineering services) and avoid a certain element of the membership. I can do that I think. Not surprisingly I was also told that the reaction to my post typifies the behaviour of some members. How sad.

So. I've made a few new friends, gained the information I wanted and leave you to welcome any more would-be LAA members. I can't imagine for the life of me why anyone could be put off joining such a happy gang. By the way, which strut is yours? I'll make a point of visiting.

[VictorGolf]

Could I add my 'pennorth. When my aircraft became an "orphan" and went in to Annex 2 I called a meeting of the UK owners to try and decide whether we would go the PFA route or stick with a C of A. We had the meeting at Turweston to make it easy for the PFA (as it was then) to make their case but nobody turned up. Anyway, for various reasons (foreign touring, aeros, lease-back to clubs etc,) we stuck with the C of A. The PFA thus lost 13 potential members.
Incidentally the cost of a 3 year UK C of A renewal is less than the cost of three Permits so for somebody like me who is cackhanded with a spanner and therefore needs a paid engineer to do the work on my aircraft, the LAA route isn't the cheapest.
Perhaps surprisingly the CAA were very helpful all the way through the process. It could be because we kept them in the loop the whole time.

[hatzflyer]

Just out of interest,how many of the owners were members of the (then) PFA?

[VictorGolf]

I'm not absolutely sure but at least 4 were members so we weren't coming in cold..

[bingoboy]

Have you factored in the CAMO costs ? and implications

[hatzflyer]

VG, Whilst I don't want to come across as "its my ball so you play to my rules or don't play " I do want to try to explain the problem.
I am fully sympathetic with your post but must point out that it is a typical reaction.
Just for the record I have owned more aircraft than most people (approx 80 over the years), CofA, N reg ,D reg and PFA (LAA). so feel qualified to answer your post.
The problem is a simple case of comparing apples with apples.

The Caa on the one hand are a government supported organisation which also shows a profit and as such are duty bound to assist you in the process of running your aircraft.

The LAA on the other hand are an association,owned by the members for the benefit of the members.Some people liken it to a club ( or even an "exclusive club" if they are knocking it).
There is no obligation for them to support you just by virtue of the fact that you are an aircraft owner (unlike the CAA). This is the point that is overlooked by most non members who are quick to criticise without taking the trouble to find out how it all works.(that is not directed at you personally).

At the time that your aircraft came up for review, the LAA engineering section was swamped with applications from Auster and Jodel owners and the system was somewhat overloaded.

Obviously some sort of order had to be put in place,and it reflected the level of impact on the membership and quite rightly so.

Things have leveled out a bit now and other types are coming on board.

Now whilst I accept that some of the owners in your case were members of the LAA, the vast majority were not, and I respectfully suggest that you may have had a stronger case if you were ALL members.

The LAA is NOT eletist,ANYONE can join and should join in the same way that they join AOPA just to further the fight against easa, and foreign intervention in our rights to fly,but that is a different subject.

You don't see AOPA getting slagged for not issuing permits,but that is not part of their remit, and slagging the LAA for not sorting out every Tom Dick and Harry's plane is actually much the same thing.

I want to make it clear that the LAA WELCOME all as members,be they tyros, pundits, spotters or just plain interested in aircraft. They have a second to none wealth of information and help available to all for just over £40 a year.

I would especially recommend it to anyone learning to fly or just got their licence as it is the best organisation to learn about aircraft available .It will help learn about aircraft engineering,flying interesting types of aircraft (taildraggers, aerobatic,vintage, classic etc.etc.) and provide the means to meet real people locally to help you develop your flying all for £1 per week.:ok: