Is Eastern Airways in Trouble?

[Airflex]

I have just heard that Eastern Airways (the last truely independant in the UK) is in trouble. They have "released" (read sacked) the Line and base maintaince manger and have been a bit tardy ion paying the connies there? More people to go on Monday.

[jamestkirk]

apparently have just bought a saab for 10 million and have still got the IAC contract until next year.

I hope not and cannot see RL making poor decisions for it to be that bad.

[speedrestriction]

Airflex,
You will probably find that users of this forum will treat controversial assertions by new posters (especially on their first post) with a healthy degree of suspicion.

sr

[Mister Geezer]

Airflex dear chap...

Take a look at the accounts for the last few years and you will see that this is one airline that is not short of cash to fall back on!

[Cpt. Chaos]

I very much doubt it.... everyone is feeling the pinch at the moment for sure and maybe they are reducing certain things, but I think they will ride the storm.

Rumours like these are not nice when they are not backed with evidence, times are hard for all at the moment, people don't need added worries when posts like these are to be found. Admittedly the clue is in the title Rumour Network..

[hogarth1]

Well done Airflex, for talking out of your ar*e. Times are tough for sure, but Eastern is doing very nicely on all fronts. If you have nothing productive to say, then don`t bother. Maybe get yourself a hobby, which won`t unduely upset other forum users. I suggets spelling and grammer to start with!

[Wod]

In Oz, where I live, a stockbroker suspected of creating and disseminating a rumour designed to manipulate a share price can be hung, drawn, quartered and then thrown out of his club.

Anything similar in UK?

[diginagain]

Anything similar in UK?

Yes. Internet bullying.

[AltFlaps]

Airflex,

Any further comment, or are you just sitting back to see what your comment will produce ?

You :mad:

[CornishFlyer]

hogarth1 (http://www.pprune.org/members/257544-hogarth1)-it's spelt grammAr not grammer :ugh::E

[merlinxx]

Someone nicked yer KY:ugh:

[5711N0205W]

Troll :ugh:

[redED]

I suggets spelling and grammer to start with!

I agree, hogarth1, i'd SUGGEST spelling and GRAMMAR too!

[Otto Throttle]

So we can take all of the above as an outright denial of rumours that up to 50 redundancies are on the cards, and the J41 fleet is heading for disposal?

[Jamesair]

Most of the J41 fleet are leased from BAE Systems so disposal is not on the cards

[jamestkirk]

I know Eastern are a bit top heavy with crews, especially Captains. I am not sure why they took DEC's in addition to ex-flightline.

I have not heard any redudancy rumours but offering to go part time may be looked at.

There has been loads of talk about 'stuff in the pipeline', but you could only speculate.

IAC seem to be very happy with the service from Eastern, so hope they get the 5 year contract or there might be redundancies next year.

[Maverick8701]

I'v got a feeling they have the IAC contract secured untill next July (which will hopefully see them out of this "downturn"). Although have been hearing alot of airlines interested in the longer 5 year contract. Aer Arran and Flybe possibly interested apparently Flybe didn't have the spare aircraft or enough time to start off for the short time contract. Although upon reading other forums the Dash 8 has been seen doing possible training flights up on the islands! Im sure everybody will be after the g/teed business but will they want to be tied in for 5 years?

M

[jamestkirk]

your correct, eastern have the contract for that time.

I am under the impression FlyBe tried to get the dash into SCS and had difficulties in doing so. Not sure of the facts though.

I get the impression that reliability (logistically speaking) is a big thing with this contract and Eastern certainly have the infrastucture in place at ABZ. ABZ is Easterns biggest base. This will hopefully help negotiations.

The Saab and its sparkleing performance and reliability copes well with SCS so again hopefully it will make a difference.

You will probably have guessed that I fly it so am trying to be impartial.

I hate hearing that people have been made redundant and pray that I will not be one.

[Cpt. Chaos]

Likewise James T (whoever you are), as a former Eastern/Saab member, I wish everyone the best of luck and hope this rumour is just that.

I have many a fond memory and it would be a crying shame if Eastern was do go by the way side..

[Airflex]

At least someone has the common sense to write something on the subject matter than just throw things. I thought this was a growns ups play room not a Kindergaten. i would suggest that Eastern might be down sizing and the 41s are on the move so I have heard as well.

[ALLMCC]

In the current financial climate, is there any airline not finding it tough? Some will weather the storm, some won't (and haven't). Eastern have a niche market and, if they have to consolidate or downsize to survive, then surely this is the most sensible course of action.

Don't see them much on this side of the Irish Sea so much now apart from the odd charter but nevertheless would be sad to see them go. All the best to all employees.

[BALLSOUT]

Eastern have had the J41's on a very good deal from BA. I expect it must be finished by now but the leases were being susidised by a small fortune. It would have been dificult not to make money on flying them. I would expect if the BA subsidy is finished now they will be finding it much harder to make them pay and may well want out of them.
I also heard that all their flights out of NCL were grounded a few days ago, don't know why. I hope they are OK, a lot of good people there!

[SWBKCB]

I also heard that all their flights out of NCL were grounded a few days ago, don't know why.

Really? Anybody got any evidence to support the NCL comment, as it's the first I've heard of it.

I recall the odd delay/canx for the usual reasons that affect everybody but comments like "all their flights...grounded" really need to be substantiated or withdrawn.:suspect:

[horsebox]

- Which airline didn't have flights cancelled on friday in the UK? Nearly the whole country was fogged out most of the day! Newcastle was no exception.

- Many of the J41 aircraft are owned outright by Eastern, a smaller number are leased from Bae and some leased from the remenants of BA citiexpress. There appears to have been rumours to sell a few 41's recently, to fund expansion of other parts of the business, see the thread on Romania in the terms forum.

- Talk of a small number of redundancies relating to engineering staff, and flight crew at certain bases that have been closed ie Inv and Man. Engineering appears to be getting brought in house at more bases, presumably to keep a grip on costs.Sign of a well managed business to me?

- Plenty of companies interested in Scatsta contract, its secure long term work, but I would guess the oil companies involved demand a high standard of safety and reliability in return. Eastern have their feet under the table already. The onus is on competing companies to demonstrate how they could do better?

- Biggest future threat to eastern is probably an upturn in the aviation industry and staff moving for better T's and C's.

[Wellington Bomber]

Have heard that RL wants all the remining J41's in new colours asap and up and running, as some of have been stored at HUY, awaiting C checks

Now to paint an a/c which costs money does not sound to me as if he is going to sell or hand them back.

The J41's are fully crewed but not to the point of having 4 crews per airplane as some other airlines and therefore crews are worked hard. The Saabs are possibly overcrewed at present but not massively, a lot of crews are awaiting line training due to the Flightline crews coming across

I think RL is just trimming the fat due to the downturn rather than sticking his head in the sand and hoping it goes away

[BALLSOUT]

I am sure it was Tuesday morning, The J41's weren't flying. Later on in the day a Saab was seen flying. Nobody seemed to know why.
With regards to the J41 ownership. The majority of the fleet were on lease to BA citiexpress. When BA decided to drop the fleet they were left with two choices. Park them up and pay the £6 mil a year lease payments with no return, or sub lease them to Eastern for £1 mil a year. They chose the Eastern deal. This was efectively a £5 mil a year subsidy to eastern. Since then I believe Eastern have purchased a few from the states, but most of the fleet are on lease. And i am also sure the £5 mil a year subsidy must be finished by now. hey have also taken on a simulator, I think it's the old Pan Am one from St Lewis.

[horsebox]

Just because a lease was signed x years ago for aircraft, doesn't mean that when it comes up for renewal the price will be the same. Its a marketplace, prices are negiotable. I would not think there would be a bidding war on a dozen 15yr old J41's. If eastern handed them back they would probably be parked up and left to rot.

Logically the 41 fleet will be replaced, when they get too expensive to run, and a similar replacement becomes available. I don't see that happening anytime soon. What other 30 seat turboprop is still in current or very recent production? They may aquire a few more saab's who knows?

The signs of an airline in financial trouble are usually mass cancellations , crew not being paid , difficulty obtaining fuel and handling, broken down aircraft not being fixed etc. There is no sign of this happening with eastern as far as I can see.

[Richard Taylor]

One thing's for sure - IF T3 are in financial difficulty, Aberdeen Airport schedules will be thrown into chaos, as well as oil industry transportation plans to the Shetland Basin!

And don't expect the BAA to be charitable either. They're too busy running a shopping centre.

[AltFlaps]

I thought this was a growns ups play room not a Kindergaten

Incorrect - pilot's post here

[BALLSOUT]

horsebox, I agree, when the leases came up for renewal I am sure they wouldn't be re negotiated at the same rate. I don't however think that BAE would drop from £6 mil to 1. In efect the new leases would probably be much more expensive to Eastern. I would guess that the price eastern have to pay would probably go up by a factor of about 3 or 4. I am sure you can do the sums!
I don't know much about Eastern these days, but I can only imagine that a large increase in their leasing costs, pressure from flybe competition, and the rescession, can't be making things easy. I do however hope that they are not in trouble, we could all do without any more failures.
Also, being J41 rated and coming from the north east, I look at eastern as a possible semi retirement job.

[Wellington Bomber]

Also heard last week that the lease agreement on the J41's was a purchase lease agreement where by the aircraft are owned after so many years, I believe this is either this or next year.

puts a different complexion on things does it not

[BALLSOUT]

Wellington, If that is the case then they will belong to BA as the leases are in their name. They were sub leased to Eastern, however I would expect BA may be easier to deal with than BAE.

[muckin fuddle]

Wellington, If that is the case then they will belong to BA as the leases are in their name. They were sub leased to Eastern, however I would expect BA may be easier to deal with than BAE.


Having worked in the industry, leases can be re-assigned at the same or different terms providing all parties are in agreement.................... :ok:

[BALLSOUT]

M F, I am sure they can, and I am fairly sure they weren't.

[ReadyToGo]

I fly with Eastern out of NCL regularly.

A few weeks ago, I was sat opposite a positioning J41 captain, and I asked him about what I thought was an alarming fall in passenger loads on my recent flights. His response was that while certain flights at certain times of the day were really struggling (he quoted Cardiff IIRC), overall, the operation at NCL was showing a slow but steady growth.

As a result he said he fully expected a few of the flights to be axed, or made into transit flights (my guess would be NCL-BHX-CWL, or NCL-BHX-SOU perhaps?), in order to make way for new routes.

Interestingly a new poster in departures at NCL is now advertising NCL-ABZ-OSL.


Great little airline, and one of few companies left that genuinely cares about its passengers.


RTG!

[Clear_Prop]

the J41 fleet is heading for disposal?

Otto: Well, ultimately the brand spanking new global A380 fleet is heading for disposal too... all metal eventually gets old. The J41s are only 15 years old, barely middle aged for an airframe, so if the rumour were true that Eastern wanted to put these to pasture already, that is surely a good sign that they are more inclined to operate a younger fleet? The continuing expansion of their Saab 2000 fleet could be a clue here?

I also heard that all their flights out of NCL were grounded a few days ago

BALLSOUT: Well, all flights actually operated all week with minimal disruption from the weather. I'd recommend you ask your contact whether they were actually watching the movements off stand, or just waiting expectantly to see the spare aircraft move! lol

Due respect.

[BALLSOUT]

C P, You are right, it was second hand info but from someone who works and operates from the airport and I would expect they would know the difference.
Anyway, as no one else seems to know anything, I expect he is either wrong or it wasn't a problem. With regards to the J41 fleet disposal, if in fact, it is being disposed of. I would maintain that it is because the fleet is no longer being subsidised by BA, making it much more dificult to make it pay.

[PIK3141]

In this industry when the Head Lease is up, Operators can buy aeroplanes cheaply.

[FlatBroke]

When you consider the amount of J41's that Eastern have on their books and how many they need, I would guess they probably have a couple of surplus aircraft. If this is the case I am not surprised that management are trying to move some on.

[Albert Hall]

Talking to an ex-colleague who now works at Eastern, it sounds like three of the J41s are heading to Romania and they are trying hard to offload more. They have up to seven in storage at any time.

There have been a number of redundancies in engineering, and redundancies in flight crew are imminent - they are apparently over-crewed after taking Flightline guys under TUPE with the Scatsta contract but also recruiting heavily at the same time. Rumours of 40-50 people to go across the company but the main cuts so far have been in engineering. A couple of senior managers have gone, contractors are being stopped and work brought in-house from outside companies.

The other rumour which has been doing the rounds - and I stress it's a rumour - is that they will pull out of schedules completely and concentrate on charters. Schedules sound to be suffering badly and over half of the flying is now charter contracts which are guaranteed cash. The first two rumours would certainly tie in with the third if the company was down-sizing before publicly announcing that schedules were to be chopped.

[RoyHudd]

Good airline. I hope they make it. Good luck to you folks working for Eastern.

[jamestkirk]

I have got to say that this thread seems to be suggesting that Eastern are in some sort of financial difficulty.

Caveat: I know not everyone on this thread has expressed that view.

Albert Hall.
TUPE - did not apply as Flightline went into administration.

Half the work are charters - Nowhere near that at the moment.

Senior management redundancies - I have no idea about engineering but that is not true to my knowledge, unless you know who.

Stopping the schedules - Doubt it, some still do very well. But I know some are being leaned off.

Although, you are right, we are a little overcrewed at the moment.

Anyone can go to Companies House and download the figures which shows that they are fine.

[PPRuNe Pop]

It is clear that the original poster was phishing and has got what he deserves in the way of ridicule.

However, it is worth taking notice that if anyone makes claims that they cannot verify they should not make them. If anyone persists we will require that they provide us with their personal details should any litigation take place.

It will be seen that Eastern are performing as well as ever.

In the meantime, this thread is closed.

AA&R Mods