Any tuggies out there?

[mary meagher]

Any tuggies out there? Towing up gliders, or banners. I've been pulling up gliders with a PA18 for 20 years now, and only just learned how possibly to avoid cooking cylinders with more intelligent use of the CHT gauge.

Love to hear from others, your tips and problems.

[IFMU]

I think there are a bunch of us. I've been tugging for about 15 years, in super cubs and pawnees. In my current club we have not had problems with cooked cylinders, in my old club we had a little trouble. Very similar techniques in both clubs, must have been some difference somewhere else, maybe in the quality of the engine baffling. Both clubs we tend to let down at 2400 in either type, and have not had troubles with cracked cylinders.

-- IFMU

[MIKECR]

Been a tuggie for 4 or 5 years and no cracked cylinder's, as yet!

[Deeday]

only just learned how possibly to avoid cooking cylinders with more intelligent use of the CHT gauge.
So, how do you avoid cooking cylinders with more intelligent use of CHT gauge? I suppose your knowledge would be useful to non-tuggies as well, if you could share it. Thanks!

[mary meagher]

Thanks for your replies, IFMU from the NE US, Mike CR of the Uk, and Deeday.

Deeday, pulling up gliders one after the other gives the poor old Lycoming a lot of stress, and it gets huffy after 8 or 900 hrs if one does not avoid shock cooling. I had correctly been gentle on throttling back after the glider has departed, keeping an eye on the CHT and progressively reducing power in the descent. If the next glider is ready to leave immediately, no problem.
But they almost never are, so you sit around for 20 minutes or so. By that time the oil is still warm, but the CHT has cooled right down. Especially on a chilly day. I used to think if the oil was warm, good enough.

So it was suggested to me by a younger and wiser pilot that I should make them wait, gently warming up the engine on the ground until the CHT has come well up, before the next departure.

We may do as many as 12 to 14 tows on a good day, before refueling.
Mostly the glider pilots, being careful with their money, try to get away using a winch launch, if that doesn't work after a couple of 5 minute sorties, they line up for the tug. We promise to deliver them to a good thermal by 2,000' (if there are any available!)

[Shunter]

EDM700 is just the job for the up/down/up/down routine. Simply follow the "if it ain't flashing, everything's fine" methodology.

[2hotwot]

Not too sure that the cooling on the ground is as much the problem as the shock cooling if the throttle is closed for the descent after the full power climb. The explanation I was given is that the front of the cylinder cools faster than the back (or the top etc) and thus becomes slightly egg shaped, the piston meanwhile remaining round. This can lead to broken rings (especially when they get carboned up and stuck) and increased cylinder wear.
No doubt others can correct me if this is not the case.....

We tow with a Rotax 914 Dimona and that engine is another story!!!!!!!

[Deeday]

Thanks mary meagher. I suppose Yak-style air intake shutters would be very handy in cases like that, both to prevent excessive cooling on descent and to speed up the engine warm-up. Shame it's such a rare feature.

[IFMU]

On the hot days in the PA18, used to watch the CHT and if it was running high I'd add 5mph onto the tow speed. That hurt rate of climb but it ran a little cooler. This was typically only during the heat of summer.

-- IFMU

[mary meagher]

IMFU, tell us more about your gliding club! Where is it? What gliders?
Average age like ours, advanced(!)? Do they make you fly square circuits?
Is it still all regulated by the FAA? Do they do much X-country?
Do you fly weekends, or other days too? Is it a private operation or a members club?

Just being nosy.

We had two wonderful days this weekend, 4 to 6 knot thermals, all the pundits went X-country. Maybe if your club is somewhat compatible, we could fix up a transatlantic exchange of sorts. . . .

I'm absolutely exhausted tonight; after a couple of soaring flights, spin training,and giving students winch launch failures. The tug is poorly, still flying but I think it will need a new cylinder this week. ... .££££££

[IFMU]

mary meagher,

There is a good thread started on glider pilots of pprune, which you could find here:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/357548-glider-pilots-pprune.html

But to answer the question anyway, I fly at Harris Hill in NY. You can find us at Harris Hill Soaring Center, Elmira, NY (http://www.harrishillsoaring.org). We have a great fleet. For tugs, two PA25-235's, one PA-18 160, all 3 with retractable tow reels. We have 3 SGS2-33's, one SGS1-26, one SGS1-34, three ASK21's, one discus, and one duo-discus. Those are just the club ships, there are a bunch of private ones too. We have a bunch of X-C pilots, though I'm not one of them.

Average age, I assume you mean of the members rather than the club itself. We have a big juniors program, probably with close to 20 kids. I get confused, because after the juniors become seniors they still look like juniors to me. Our oldest active former junior just turned 76. Lots of middle aged folks, who waited until the kids were grown up. Lots of people of all ages who have just been into it for a long time. I bet if you did a numerical average on the age it would be close to 50.

We pretty much fly any circuit we want, as long as it is on the east side for power, and the west side for gliders, and we don't crash into anybody. Our typical, preferred operation is to launch off of the hill (to the north), and land back onto it. If the winds are strong out of the north, we land north too. If the winds are strong out of the south, we don't fly. The runway is short, forced landing options are poor on takeoff to the south, just not comfortable enough. Departing north, we just have to clear the guardrail and we have 800', and an easy glide (even in a pawnee) to our emergency field.

Soaring is FAA regulated like all aviation in the US, which I understand is much different in the UK.

Harris Hill is a club, requiring an initiation fee, monthly dues, and 4 hours of service a month. My service is towing, of course we also have to cover operating the line, commercial rides, and instruction. Non-members can fly their own gliders at the hill, if they have a rating, a satisfactory field checkout, and are willing to pay double tow fees. That would work out to about $46 for a 2000' tow, rather than the member fee of $23. We fly weekends April-October, plus once the kids are out of school we have it staffed on weekdays too, 10AM to 6PM.

I don't know if Harris Hill has ever done an overseas exchange or not. I'm guessing not. Many times has a member taken an overseas friend or family member up in one of the 2-place club ships. We have a few Englishmen, lots of Germans, a New Zealander, and probably a few other immigrants who call the states home now.

No flying for me this weekend, between family commitments and a cold I was pretty much done for. Looked ok today though.

-- IFMU

[SNS3Guppy]

I don't tow presently, but I started a business years ago towing banners, and I've towed gliders in the past.

Cracking cylinders was never an issue.

[dublin_eire]

Hi there,

I saw this thread and thought it a good place to ask. I want to hour build by tugging as I have done gliding before and it's inexpensive. How do clubs take on the pilots? Is there criteria? I know some clubs expect a silver grade at gliding. Do you think having a PPL, low hours, and minimal gliding experience enough to start tugging?

[mary meagher]

Hello, dublin eire!

You sound young and eager. Perhaps I can help with some advice.

Any gliding club in the UK that offers winch and aerotow may not use the tugs a lot because an aerotow costs so much more. Best to apply to clubs that
aerotow only. Eg, Bidford, Booker, Black Mountains, Deeside

BUT Black Mountains and Deeside are challenging ridge and wave sites. Look on the British Gliding Association website to find other aerotow only clubs.

Any gliding at all is helpful, a silver "C" even better. Glider pilots don't much care for tuggies who havn't a clue how to take them to lift.

Cheapest way to build hours is probably to fly in the US. Possibly travel with another pilot to share costs. Someplace like "Pilot's Choice" in Georgetown, Texas.....

By all means, send your CV to lots of gliding clubs, you may get a nibble, but there are lots of pilots who would like to build hours, so the more gliding you have done, the more likely your chances.

Good luck!

[gsora]

I fly Pawnee tugs (235), and shock cooling avoidence is certainly an issue, at our club we slowly reduce power in the descent after glider release with a target speed of 100 knots and maintain 2000 rpm for for the descent to circuit height.

If the ambient is hot, a slower reduction of rpm is recommended.

I imagine the tuggie in the movie had a lot of issues to deal with!



YouTube - 9-vlek avi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAdIkB5rbgo)

[Airbus Girl]

Mary Meagher! Wow, long time no hear. Hope you are well.
I was at Booker for a few years before going off to fly the noisy planes and remember you well! I started working there just as Mike Cuming was going and Bas Fairston was taking over.

[IFMU]

gsora,

Cool video. Not much climb rate, looks like a super cub pulling a 2-place with the carb heat on!

The two clubs I've towed for we always run downhill at 2400 rpm and 140 mph. No shock cooling problems. The nice thing about the pawnee is it really comes down at speed, makes for nice fast cycle times.

-- IFMU

[SNS3Guppy]

I flew Pawnees all day long pushing up the power and pulling it back doing ag work...constant power changes in climbs out of fields and descents over obstacles back into fields...no problem whatsoever with "shock cooling." Flew jumpers in light singles, towed banners in light singles, and all kinds of other work involving descents from altitude, and if the airplane is flown properly, shock cooling is never an issue. It's no issue at all with banner towing.

In banner towing, one is carrying power all the time save for the banner drop, and that's nothing more than a power on low approach, followed by a normal traffic pattern...or simply a quick return to landing. No shock cooling issues what so ever.

Towing sailplanes...also not an issue. One shouldn't ever put the airplane in a position during the descent in which the slipstream is driving the propeller...and if one never reduces power that far, then one has no danger of "shock cooling" the motor.

[mary meagher]

Wow, some video, 9 gliders on one tow, now that's real economical operation!

I like the way they all peeled off the rear ones first. Wonder if we could set up something of the sort for the Shenington Regionals? (if the runway could be extended X l0)

Airbus girl, I'm busier than ever, but not at Booker. Only reason that there is my true name is that I get muddled up with computers and I should really be blogging as Soupdragon. So have to be careful in what I say.

Any chance you can drop in at what used to be Edgehill???? That goes for everyone on this thread, by the way. We're 7 days operational, weather permitting, PPR for power, avoid the village, cables lying around on the ground, and up to l,400 QFE.