who hire 0 hour pilot on the A320? [Archive]

S.F.L.Y

5th Apr 2009, 17:42

xperienced guys like WWW are advising not to go into aviation at the moment at least by NOT taking on any debt, however this advice falls on deaf ears.

Well you're right but in my particular case it's a year and a half that I'm grounded since airlines prefers 500tt guys with type rating than 3000tt and 2200 multi-crew turboprop PIC like me without type rating... and at this stage my choice is pretty simple: either I invest in a type rating with what I've earned before it goes away or I simply refocus on another job (and the fact is that I'm not ready to give up on it). I may decide to go for a type rating being conscious that despite my total time I might not get anything without 300h on type, but frankly, is there so many options for me?

EpsilonVaz

5th Apr 2009, 17:42

potkettleblack (http://www.pprune.org/members/124741-potkettleblack): EZY is currently only offering 6 month summer contracts. The pilots who were let go at the end of last year were the first on the list to be asked back.

potkettleblack

6th Apr 2009, 08:18

It actually never ceases to amaze me how low this industry can go. So there are some poor sods who signed up to the CTC deal thinking it was a great way into the industry. They jumped through all of the hoops, swam in the pool for lord knows how long. Then get called forward and told to drop everything as they have a job and are thrown into the training. After that they get a nice pat on the back saying you did very well but we don't actually have any work for you. Then no doubt a nice HR person calls up saying they are "lucky" as we have some gaps that need filling for the summer so your back in. After that then presumably told to toddle off and go backpacking for a while until we might have some more work for you. Its all due to the recession you see......

I for one would be trawling through my contract and getting some specialist legal advice. We all know its probably a fruitless task in the end but it certainly wasn't what CTC "sold" as part of their marketing spin. Give BALPA a call and see if it can't get onto the agenda. Good luck to you.

Kelly Hopper

6th Apr 2009, 09:43

It still amazes me! Just when I think there is no more p1ss to take along comes someone else with a full bladder!
Let's face it this paying for TR started only about 8 years ago with one irish airline and now they are all at it. Then they introduced a no salary til line check and many more have followed suit. Now we are into the realms of paying for 500 hours! Then "goodbye/next!"
I can see where this is going so why can't others?
WAKE UP! you are shooting yourselves in the foot and meanwhile stabbing everyone else in the back.
It is the newbees today that will suffer the most tomorrow.
Pilots used to be of above intelligence in the world. Today I simply cannot think of a more stupid bunch of individuals! Where builders, McDonalds crewmen, toilet cleaners, roads sweepers, you name them, are all trying to better themselves in life, pilots are actively destroying their very existance.
How do you spell pilot? L.E.M.M.I.N.G!

SVoa

6th Apr 2009, 12:33

Its people being literally desparate to fly... And now we have all these experienced f/o's getting angry because airlines prefer the cheaper ones with less hours...

Its only going to go downhill... from the second that people are desparate enough to fly they will pay not thousands, but millions if they can... Airlines are amongst the most inovative businesses in the world, just how they found a way to make people pay for their own TR's they will find ways to make you pay for them and literally not pay you for 6 months. They will find holes in the system if they get desparate enough. EZY fired some pilots, but they were pilots that had caused problems in the past. They literally took the list of pilots who had some disciplinary action made towards them and started ticking the boxes. Also alot of the GB pilots got sacked and some of the cadets from FTE that had joined GB then EZY got sacked. This is normal.

Dont forget that EZY have a VERY seasonal schedule. In the winter their route network shrinks very much, and in the summer they always need more pilots than they have at the time. Whats the solution???? CTC cadets, desparate and cheap. After 6 months they let them go and its not their problem anymore.

The best thing to do is either not to become a pilot if you dont have the money and connections (because connections are half the battle) or become a pilot and accept that in a few years you will be paying your own training, type rating, food, you will also have to put a coin in to use the WC when your on duty, pay for your own LPC's/OPC'c and if the airline tells you that they are moving you to another aircraft type, you will have to pay for that as well, or get fired. There will be other desparate ignorant people who love being owned by banks, waiting in line behind you with a check... whoever offers the airline the most money will get the job :E

To answer the initial question of the post... Yes there are airlines in Europe who are hiring pilots for A320 right this moment with zero hours and yes they pay for your TR. They are called Aegean Airlines, in Greece. However in order for them to accept you, you have to be fluent in english and greek. :D

SVoa

Superpilot

6th Apr 2009, 12:47

Airlines are commercial entities. They exist to make a profit. They have a high demand one season and a not so high demand the following season. Just like Tescos, Sainsburys and many more during X-mas time! Our super markets have caught on a long time ago. It makes perfect sense to hire lots of short term or agency staff during peak season and then let them go at the end. Why can't the same rule be applied to the airline industry? Lets face it. We all have this fantastical view about this career. It's not our fault, years of brainwashing by a previous generation is at fault. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. The bar has been raised. Now the airline pilot is expected to start his career as a seasonal pilot, eventually making his mark and gaining a permanent position. As a seasonal pilot you will have to find some other line of work which is a good thing IMO. It's added protection in case you lose your medical.

S.F.L.Y

6th Apr 2009, 13:14

It is absolutely true that airlines as commercial entities will do all they can to cut all costs. Old farts should really wake up because they might soon be replaced with younger guys ready to take half the pay to do the job. It's been over 15 years since I made my first flight and I've invested too much time, money and energy to simply give-up on my career because of the current airline requirements. I am still wondering what all the corporation is waiting for reacting through unions and to express their concerns about these new conditions. It's not only a matter of money & lifestyle but also SAFETY. No other employers are asking such big investment just to get a job. Employment security should be a must to balance these investment, or more logically, companies should invest in the training of their employees instead of asking them to do it.

I don't see why newbies should pay attention to old pilots advising them not to fly for free when the same old guys didn't do anything to help...

EK4457

6th Apr 2009, 13:20

Superpilot, I hope I misunderstood your post. You seem to be comparing the economics of students stacking shelves in Tesco at xmas to airline pilots.

You also seem to be saying that the exploitation of your own proffession (assuming you are a pilot) is a good thing.

Did I get it right?

scallaghan

6th Apr 2009, 18:48

Hi

I have looked at the CTC Flexicrew program but couldnt find the finer details :) .

Do they know where you are going when you start the type rating? Only asking as I assume you would learn the SOP's for the airline you would join during the course.

Is it a self funded type rating scheme and then your contracted out for the season to an airline and then your back in a pool once contract complete?

I am asking as I would like to know more about this scheme, if anyone has anything, please PM me.

Kelly Hopper

7th Apr 2009, 07:01

You cannot compare a pilot's life with stacking shelves in Tesco...
Tesco employ you, pay you, give you benefits such as pensions, deals on insurance, finance etc. Keep your nose clean and you have a job tomorrow.
Flying gives you...............?????????

2 Whites 2 Reds

7th Apr 2009, 13:27

Let's not turn this into a 'Should we pay for Type Ratings' debate. Everyone knows it's a crap situation and that we shouldn't have to. But Kelly, don't have a go at the guys that have. It's alright for the folks that finished their training many years ago when TR's were being handed out left right and bloody centre. Does anyone want to spunk an extra 15-30k on training after already taking a kick in the nuts for upwards of 50k.....NO! But that the way it is. Either we ALL i.e everyone says no to paying for TR's, which at the moment would probably sink a few airlines...or learn to live with it because I can't see the good old days returning any time soon! I detest the idea of paying yet more money to do this job and I certainly don't like the look of the job situation or T&C's but they're not going to improve until the greatly anticipated pilot shortage that the FTO's keep bleating about comes around!!!

Superpilot

7th Apr 2009, 15:58

EK4457, perhaps you want to re-read what I posted?

EK4457

7th Apr 2009, 16:38

Why? Have you changed it?

Ok then.

EK4457

7th Apr 2009, 16:57

Just re-read it.

It still clearly states that treating airline pilots like part time shelf stackers is a good thing for us all.

It also clearly states that (paradoxically) you should be happy that your emploment contract is virtually worthless becuse you are then forced to get a second job in order to live which gives you, err, added protection

Also, true to form with today's society, it is all sombody else's fault that we are in this situation;

Lets face it. We all have this fantastical view about this career. It's not our fault, years of brainwashing by a previous generation is at fault.

A quite staggering perspective.

Like I say, I hope that you mean somthine else and that I got the wrong end of the stick.

To be clear, the idea of a bad economy giving us bad Ts&Cs during a recession is nothing new. But, to actively encourage and endorse the exploitation by some (read EZY/FR) airlines is barking mad.

Me thinks you have made your mind up and have past the point of no return. It's much nicer to convice yourself that all of this is fantastic, unaviodable and not your fault than to face the reality. The reality is that the situation is dire and pretty much any flying job available now is virtually subsidised work experience.

Read up on confirmation bais again.

Helmet on.....

batman123

8th Apr 2009, 15:08

last year, I got some offers(maybe 2 or 3). All of them I had to pay for line training+ hours on type.
Knowing I would have to pay again after leaving the company , I didn't really see the point to pay for a new company.

Not only this, they asked me to pay for at least 300 hours plus pay for VAT. total around 30'000$+ food+ accommodation+ transport,....

guys who have accepted this ****ty offers, had to leave the company a few months later due to new indian rules and some I believe lost their money:(.

they are still in the same situation as me with a few hundred hours on the 320, except I will cost less to hire...:E

Superpilot

9th Apr 2009, 08:25

EK,

I really don't know how to respond to you. I really do feel you've got the wrong end of it. If you knew me and my views like some people here on PPrUNe you would agree I am actually one of the more wiser and sensible wannabes here who places pay, terms and conditions above else all in aviation. I have often been the instigator of many a thread which aims to expose the deterioration of terms for new pilots. As a wannabe I have met a thousand people who are more than happy to work for free or at a reduced salary so they can get that vital experience. I say no, I say bull**** to all of the above, as a result, I sit here waiting for a miracle to take place. That's the way I choose to do it. Luck will come my way even if it takes another 10 years, I can wait.

I was simply stating that EZs use of CTC Flexicrew makes good business sense, and must be respected as a good business decision. Of course its terrible for the industry in general. But the reality is the industry and airlines do not owe us anything (like everyone keeps saying). My comparision of EZ to the likes of Tesco and Sainsburys was made to show you what measures companies are willing to take to return the highest level of profit. That's all bud.

Birdy767

9th Apr 2009, 09:26

EU is working on this major problem.

Today experienced pilots are grounded BECAUSE of Self Sponsor Programs and all this crap... It always been impossible to find a job with 200tt during an industry downturn period except if you are willing to give your cash to the pimps. I have been in this situation before but I have never paid 1 cent to get a job!

So please, take 5 minutes of your day and report it to the EU (link). This corruption has to stop!

Vladimír ?pidla - EU Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities (http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/spidla/index.cfm?langId=en&pid=contacts)

EK4457

9th Apr 2009, 10:28

Superpilot,

I said I hope I got you wrong and it looks like I did. Phew!

I apologise. Also, looking back, my post was probably a little OTT.

Like you, I can understand an airline taking the piss for all it can. I can't understand for the life of me why pilots think it's a good idea and I get a bit irate at the Lemming over a cliff attitude shown by some young wannabe top guns.

Good luck in your quest for the company funded TR!

EK

Superpilot

9th Apr 2009, 11:04

Actually I am type rated. Done a SSTR, got it cheap, had the time and the money so did it. When you do the maths, you realise that a new pilot always ends up paying for a rating one way or another (reduced salary, bond, paying upfront all the same thing). It's the next step (paying for line hours) that I, like most, abhorr.

FlyingTinCans

9th Apr 2009, 11:14

Why is everyone so fixated on a Jet job?

Use the situation to your advantage.

Example,
Pilot A goes to a non-jet operator, seen as 'second' best to all the other airlines, due to this, they have to pay for peoples type ratings to get pilots through the door. Pilot A gets a free type rating spends 2-3 years flying the line, gaining hours which he is PAID FOR (albeit not the 6 figure sums all pilots ultimately aim for) then moves on as an experienced pilot and gets another free type rating on a shiney jet.

Pilot B goes to a Jet operator, seen as a great company because they fly big shiney jets :ugh: However because the airline knows this they exploit it and He/she has to fork out another 20k to get the job, then has to pay more £££ for line training, uniform, food, accomodation......once he/she is type rated gets offered a 'pay as you fly' contract position. A few months down the line the hours dry up because there are more Pilot B's behind him doing exactly the same thing and he/she's fantastic Jet pay is the same as the Pilot A's second best turboprop pay. On top of that Pilot B is then ordered to be based somewhere else at his own expense.... and after doing this cycle for 2/3 years he is in the same position as Pilot A but with 20k more debt to his name!

This is from personal experiance, and will no doubt fall on deaf ears

BSmuppet

9th Apr 2009, 12:54

Flyingcanopener

So are you talking from your experience as Pilot A or Pilot B?

BSmuppet

9th Apr 2009, 14:22

That is cool,

I'll be honest with you. The ultimate dream is to have that nice pilot uniform and fly a 744.

But before then, surely flying non jets is what makes flying fun! Whilst I would not say no to a RHS in a 737 or A320, I really can't think of anything as boring during my first few years.

Pilot A sounds good to me! Out of interest what was your salary on the non-jet

EK4457

9th Apr 2009, 17:39

Genius!

Baldrick from Blackadder springs to mind;

I have a cunning plan!

Unfortunately the reality is that there are no TP operators who are recruiting right now in order for you to hatch this masterplan.

It's the same logic that the 'masters of the universe' followed with sub prime mortgates. Basically, they thought if you give really dodgy loans to poor people who can't pay them back, put it though a complex equation, mix it with some good debt and, hey presto, it becomes good debt. Just like that, Tommy Cooper syle.

Of course, back on planet earth, if you give a poor person a very risk loan which they can't afford, then it will stay like that no matter what. And so we have the worst downturn for 60 years.

My longwinded point is that, no matter how good your idea is, if no airlines are recruiting you can't get a job. And no airlines are recruiting. So you can't get a job.

Once airlines start recruiting again, TP pilots tend to move onto jets and wannabes tend to go to the TP positions. Nothing new, in fact it's a well trodden path.

Try sending your CV off to a TP operator if you don't believe me.

And another thing, you will find that most TP operators charge for the initial TR too. In fact, I can only think of flyBE who don't off the top of my head - although there will be more.

EK

batman123

9th Apr 2009, 19:46

right, I looked for jobs on the 320. they don't hire anymore, even for captain position.
no need to look for a jet job actually.
so I decided to keep my license current (valid for 5 years), and do something else.

if some are lucky and have a job and are ready to be in debt for years (or forever), good luck to you, but in my point of view, no banks will give you money for aviation anymore.

you may get 20'000-30'000 euro for an unsecured loan, but it won't cover cpl, or type rating+food, accomodation, transport.

if you bet the house of you parents, what would you say to them when they will be kicked out because you screwed their life?

FlyingTinCans

9th Apr 2009, 21:23

To the Muppet :ok:,
I was Pilot A, and a very close friend of mine who was at the same flight school with same hours was Pilot B and offered the same job as me but chose a different path. If you look on ppjn you will find the up-do-date pay scales.

Yes I take everyones point that the airlines AT THE MOMENT have generally stopped recruting and for any wannabe out there I do have sympathy for you.
However the culture of "I must fly Jets" has been around alot longer than this "Crunch". Infact, spending MORE money in times like this is an even worse idea!

Even more experianced pilots than me will tell you that once you have done the job for a few months the most important thing about the aircraft you fly is how comfortable your seat is.

Air southwest is another that pay's for your TR

adverse-bump

11th Apr 2009, 17:12

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/369298-why-do-well-sell-ourselves-so-short.html

brummybirdlover

13th Apr 2009, 21:02

SuperpilotActually I am type rated. Done a SSTR, got it cheap, had the time and the money so did it. When you do the maths, you realise that a new pilot always ends up paying for a rating one way or another (reduced salary, bond, paying upfront all the same thing). It's the next step (paying for line hours) that I, like most, abhorr.
SP-I have to take issue about the bond thing. As long as it is a sensible one (ie; not £45K for five years for a (very) out of date aircraft like one operator was apparently doing) why is it the same as paying for it? Okay, you can't just up and leave within a certain time but surely if a company invests money in you they have a right to expect you to stay for a long enough period for them to recoop their costs? I was bonded, I am now free of that bond, I was not on reduced salery at anypoint. I knew what I was getting into when I signed the contract and accepted (and was very happy to) I wasn't going to be able to leave within that time without paying them back a portion of that money. I know there have been aurguments about it restricting market freedom etc but it seems to me alot better than shelling out £50K+ on a F/ATPL then another 15K+ on a type rating then being on reduced on no salery for the first six months. Plus, FLyingTinCans makes a good point. Why fixate on a jet job? yes, make that your eventual aim if thats what you want but accept that you may need several years flying light aircraft (flying instructor, parachute centre jump pilot, air-taxi etc) before moving on to the giddy hieghts of a TP first officer etc. It may not work just at the moment but it took me several years to get to my first airline job and that was before the current finacial crisis. (There is always something. Since I qualified; 9/11, SARS, Gulf War II and Afganistan..companies going bust putting more expereinced people on the market ahead of you...) It's a tough world but I ain't paying for the bloody job! The job is tough enough and I earn what I get paid (which is above average for the sector I'm in) I love it but I'm not going to do it for free!