AirTanker Civilian Pilots

[Flashdance9]

From AirTanker website:

AirTanker will employ its own A330-200 type qualified pilots who will operate the aircraft when they are on the civil register. This group will include a number of instructors and examiners who will be responsible for the type and air transport line training of RAF pilots.

Civil pilots employed by AirTanker will also be Sponsored Reservists. They will undertake regular training with the RAF in both military and tanker operations. Sponsored Reservists can be “Called Out” by the Ministry of Defence for permanent service alongside regular RAF personnel to provide a surge capability.

What is a "sponsored reservist"?

Thanks

[BEagle]

The Sponsored Reserve concept enables the Ministry of Defence to enter into a defence contract on condition that an agreed element of the contractor's workforce has a reserve liability. These Reservists can be trained and called out to undertake the contracted task as members of the Armed Forces.

Instructor, Examiner and with a call-out liability? I imagine that would mean a somewhat higher salary than a basic A330 airline captain might expect to receive?

[bythebackdoor]

The Army did a similar thing with their Osh Kosh tank transporters.
Some Serving personnel but mostly civies that can deploy.
I guess it's a bit like being a retained fire man?

[CirrusF]

Instructor, Examiner and with a call-out liability? I imagine that would mean a somewhat higher salary than a basic A330 airline captain might expect to receive?

I suppose that depends on your motives. I would take a salary below the market rate for an A330 captain or FO for the honour, pleasure, fun and satisfaction of being in the reserves again.

[BEagle]

Very laudable; however, I suspect you may well be in the minority.

[Tankertrashnav]

I seem to recall 101 at Brize had a VC10 Flight Engineer who was well into his 60's before he finally retired. On that basis can I apply for a job down the back? Not sure if this is probe and drogue but if not I'm sure I could learn to fly a boom. One thing though, my flying suits seem to have shrunk, so I may need some new ones.:)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

This doesn’t add much to the discussion; but offered for what it’s worth. Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | Progress made in Future Aircraft programme (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/ProgressMadeInFutureAircraftProgramme.htm)

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D8E86EF5-5EB8-428B-9290-1BA43C30D134/0/20080110FSTA_Typhoon_Refueling_800x600U.jpg

As regards Sponsored Reserves; Categories of Reservists - Volunteer, Full-time, High Readiness, & Sponsored Reservists (http://www.sabre.mod.uk/Output/page12.asp)
and
House of Commons - Defence - First Report (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmdfence/70/7009.htm)

[Flashdance9]

thanks for the info on sponsored reservists.

So as an AirTanker civilian 'copilot' in normal day to day operations you would be flying pax around europe as an A330 First Officer.

Then when the UK goes to war, you get called up, and become "Flying Officer", flying military transport/tanker missions?

I take it there is still a 900hr/yr flying limit?

Staff travel benefits!?

[beerdrinker]

From GBZ's photo can we take it that the RAF version of the KC330 will not have the new Airbus designed boom - so will our new tanker not be able to help USAF aircraft?

Also is it the case that the RAF KC330 will not have the ability to be refuelled itself? (I saw some quote that it had enough range without refuelling capability) But didn't the version offered to the USAF recently have this capability?

[Saintsman]

No boom for RAF tankers and no probe either. A probe was discussed early on but was decided the range didn't warrant it.

Sponsored Reserve engineers too.

[beerdrinker]

Thanks SM.

Any idea what the Oz version will have. And the version being offered to the Armee de l'Air

[BEagle]

RAAF version is the KC-30A.


Wing AAR pods - yes
Boom - yes
Able to receive fuel - yes
Private Finance Initiative service - NO


Same for the KC-45A for the USAF. Although I'm not sure whether that'll have a centreline drogue as well - I don't think so.

[beerdrinker]

Thanks BEagle.

Is the Brit version equipped with a centreline drogue? (Not shown on the photo)

So in true British tradition (miltary and civilian) we are not getting the best aircraft. We get a bean counter option

Surely the best option set up is :

Wing AAR pods - yes
Boom - yes
Able to receive fuel - yes (probe & receptacle)
Centre Line Drogue - yes

That way all "allied" aircraft can be serviced

[D-IFF_ident]

The KC-45 design does include a centre-line hose; the KC-30A not so, as deemed not required.

So when does Airtanker start recruiting these A330-200 type qualified AAR instructors? And from where will they come?

I'd also be interested to see the agreed security screening requirements for sponsored reservists.

It could be a great gig though - even better if there was a receiver capability - but thrashing around a North Sea towline fo a living without pulling SDO, station 540, Mess Ents committee, Brown-nosing or JPA in one's spare time. Hell, I might even send in my CV; in about 5 years :ok:

[Lionel Lion]

If anyone thinks it'd be a lovely flying job without the Brize career crawling influence they'll be sadly wrong. Or if there's any civilian 'bucket n spade' flying with it either.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ministry of Defence | Fact Sheets | Project Factsheets | Future Stategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) Questions & Answers (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/ProjectFactsheets/FutureStategicTankerAircraftfstaQuestionsAnswers.htm)


Q. How many refuelling points will FSTA have?
A. All FSTA aircraft will be capable of at least twin point refuelling, from underwing pods, five will in addition have a centreline Hose Drum Unit for refuelling Large Aircraft – but not simultaneously with use of the underwing pods


Presumably, they will be the core "inventory" with the 2 Point only machines being the commercial mooonlighters?

Will the "moonlighters" have stick on/peel off markings (roundel, flash, serial No/Reg letters)?

[Green Flash]

I wonder how they will handle the physical security of the moonlighters and the crews when parked overnight at some costa-del-middle of nowhere? Or will they always return to Blighty each night?:uhoh: And how will foriegn airports take to having a military marked aircraft ('are you sure those things under the wings aren't missiles?') milling about the pan? Hope someone somewhere has had a thouight or two?!

[BEagle]

Will the "moonlighters" have stick on/peel off markings (roundel, flash, serial No/Reg letters)?

That'd keep the spotters guessing...:8!!

Maybe they'll just have no identification markings except tiny little national markings. Like a certain nation's jets which didn't land in the UK... Of course not. Absolutely not...:oh:

[Saintsman]

Surely the best option set up is :

Wing AAR pods - yes
Boom - yes
Able to receive fuel - yes (probe & receptacle)
Centre Line Drogue - yes

That way all "allied" aircraft can be serviced

Why would the RAF pay for a boom that they don't use, just on the off chance that an "allied" aircraft might be able to use it?

If there is a need for a multi - national tanker force, then NATO can set it up can't they?

[spheroid]

Why would the RAF pay for a boom that they don't use

The RAF are not paying for it.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

How will the RAF tankers be crewed, clearly there will be 2 drivers, a loadie??. Who is going to oversee the refuelling part of the job particularly on a trail etc. I am guessing the AARCs role will be retained but will there routinely be a 3rd on the flightdeck at some bespoke workstation monitoring the fuel offload? If so what brevet will this type be? Will the Eng/Nav fraternity be playing musical chairs........:E

[Flashdance9]

Are there any RAF aircrew who currently operate as "sponsored reservists"?

Thanks

[Dengue_Dude]

Have they sussed out where they can stick Mk32 pods yet?

They had these lovely pictures when they were about to hang them off the Tri-motor - only to find there wasn't anything they could attach the bolts to.

Naughty Lockheed had a weaker outer wing structure to save weight and a bunch of accelerometers - not territory to hang a refuelling pod off.

Of course NOBODY knew this when the RAF were politically saddled with the wrong aircraft. Had they used Lakers DC10s, there wouldn't be the need for new kit yet.

Oh well, I'm glad we've got several handfuls of air officers looking this project now - bound to get it right . . .

[Cannonfodder]

How will the RAF tankers be crewed, clearly there will be 2 drivers, a loadie??. Who is going to oversee the refuelling part of the job particularly on a trail etc. I am guessing the AARCs role will be retained but will there routinely be a 3rd on the flightdeck at some bespoke workstation monitoring the fuel offload? If so what brevet will this type be? Will the Eng/Nav fraternity be playing musical chairs........http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif


The Mission Systems Operators (MSOs) will be drawn from all NCA trades. Whilst the ac is re-fuelling the MSO will be operate from a console on the flight deck. When on a pax flight they will be cabin supervisors. If on a trail there will be 2 MSOs swapping roles each leg. If a rotary ALM, Eng, AEOp or Nav want to become an A330 MSO then they will have to complete the ALM fixed wing training course at Cranwell.
I think there might be a few Air Eng/Navs that will be dissapointed at both the simplistic nature of the re-fuelling process (towline and trail management/navigation) and the fact that they will have to be air steward supervisors for a fair chunk of their time on the sqn.

[thebarrel]

There are a few sponsored reservists on EFTS.

[glhcarl]

....Naughty Lockheed had a weaker outer wing structure to save weight and a bunch of accelerometers - not territory to hang a refuelling pod off.

Of course NOBODY knew this when the RAF were politically saddled with the wrong aircraft. Had they used Lakers DC10s, there wouldn't be the need for new kit yet...
Actually the L-1011 TriStar wing is much stronger than the DC-10 wing. The DC-10's outboard aileron has to be nulled in cruise to prevent over loading. While the 1011 not only has a full time outboard aileron, Lockheed was able to increase the span on the -500's for improved fuel efficiency.

[Phil Terfull]

Why will Air Eng/Navs need to do the ALM course at Cranwell? I understood that the A330 trim would be the responsibility of the drivers.

[Dengue_Dude]

The reason the outboard aileron is active on the Tristar was quite rightly to offload the outer wing which would be overstressed if it didn't have it.

It was quite clever by offloading the outer wing to push the centre of lift inboard, forward thus raising the nose if a certain 'g' threshold was reached.

BUT when you hang a tonne of ironmongery under this outer wing, it upsets all the calculations and is not doable within the budgets pertaining at the time. Ergo, it was the wrong aircraft.

Having flown both, I preferred the Tristar for crew comfort. The DC10 is a stronger aircraft wing outboard - even Lockheed admitted that they use a 'light weight' structure outboard to reduce weight and increase aerodynamic efficiency.

Most modern jets lock out the outer ailerons as they are unnecessary in high speed cruise.

The point was (and is) that the DC10 was the better flight refuelling platform and all the 'artists' impressions' in the world don't affect reality.

So - have they sussed out where to hang the Mk32 pods yet?

[glhcarl]

The DC10 is a stronger aircraft wing outboard - even Lockheed admitted that they use a 'light weight' structure outboard to reduce weight and increase aerodynamic efficiency.


In my 32 plus years on the L-1011 program that is the first I heard that the we used "light weight" structure in the outboard wing. In fact here is a quote from the L-1011-500 Technical Summary: "It should be noted that the adapation of the active controls is unique to the L-1011, which has a wing structure so stiff in torsion that there is no need to dwell the outboard ailerons in high speed flight."

[D-IFF_ident]

Not Mk 32 pods - Cobham 90X series pods.

FSTA using A330 wings - Pods hung from points where Engines 1 and 4 would be if it was an A340 wing, but with the A330 wing appropriately modified. (Possibly why the RAAF specifically ordered A340 wings).

I'm guessing MSOs will need to do the ALM course at Cranwell so they can sign for the weight and balance? Doesn't matter what the background of the MSO is if they are appropriately trained on the new system. Although a background as an AE/ALM/Nav/steward would be useful for different scenarios.

Lionel - be interested to see your copy of the TORs?

Edited to add - FSTA won't be using L1011 or DC10 wings - so the aileron argument is a moot point. And I'm sure EADS will iron out all the snags before delivery and provide a turnkey solution etc.

[Flashdance9]

There are a few sponsored reservists on 32 and EFTS.

I guess those in EFTS are ex QFIs.

Are those on 32 ex RAF or from civvy background.

What Im getting to is, are there any 'sponsored reservists' who come from only civvy background - no past mil experience? And will AirTanker see the first civvy only pilots flying for the RAF?

[airborne_artist]

And will AirTanker see the first civvy only pilots flying for the RAF?

To begin with it's highly likely, I'd have thought - the chances of finding an ex-RAF, now suitably qualified TRI/TRI who really wants to go back to light blue might be slim.

[trap one]

Well from an RAF point of view.
1. Can Boom refuel E3D/C17's so they don't have to go and pay another Nation for the Currency/Training ticks.
2. They could BDA train UK A/C rather than go and pay another Nation for the Currency/Training Ticks.
3. The Boom could be used to offload fuel at much higher speeds, than the centre-line HDU can into other tankers.
4. If ALL FSTA had a Boom/Centre line HDU then they could all refuel the RAF's large aircraft as it is they will be a limited number capable of doing this and they will probably be in the wrong part of the Country/World when needed.
5. With a Boom they could also pass gas to the Receptical fitted Tankers should they have to depart the Towline for turn around comitments or unservicabilities before they have off loaded all their available fuel.
6. With a Boom/Centrline HDU both fitted then they could be used to cover for other tankers that have either had to recover or have not made it to the Towline.
7. If fitted with Probe and Receptical they could then recieve Gas from any tankers that had to go home early, thus still making it available to the fragged recievers when they eventually turn up.

That short list was brought to you from some one who has controlled tankers in 4 Wars/Conflicts and over 27 years of experience in Tanker ops. But does it make a bit of difference to the bean counters, of course not:ugh:

[Art Field]

trap one, you are right on all counts but since those companies that tendered were not told that either a boom or a probe were to provided, then the 'if you don't ask you wont get' rule applied and the lessons of many a past operation were ignored. Both TTSC and Air Tanker were going to do the minimum within the contract and ensure they could get the maximum out of the frames from the non RAF side. It is a pretty good deal to have guaranteed income for twenty odd years for your assets from a government contract.

[trap one]

Art
I do not have a problem with the companies doing as little as can on the RAF side and as much as possible on the civilian side. They after all are there to make money. My problem is with the MOD who allowed the Government to put this on the RAF.
If the MOD wont hire the good but expensive lawyers, then they will get shafted every time.

As a serviceman I wanted the kit to do the job and have built in development. I know, that the Request would have started out as an Aircraft more than capable of doing the jobs I described in my previous post. But when the operators are told what they can and can't do by Bean Counters who have no idea of what is required, then it makes my blood boil.

That change to the RAF was one of the reasons that I left and nothing I've seen since the day I left has changed my mind.

[Dengue_Dude]

I acknowledge a one-to-one instruction in Tristar aerodynamics from glhcarl and thank him for it. I stand corrected, but wiser.

That said, the RAF still chose the wrong aircraft in the Tristar for AAR. More of a political decision than an engineering-based one.

The Lockheed tri-motor still remains my favourite aircraft of all time - despite what the RAF did to it and four companies-worth of DC10.

So have they worked out where to hang the (newer type) pods yet???

[Saintsman]

So have they worked out where to hang the (newer type) pods yet???

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_A330-KC-30_RAAF_Concept_Wheels_Down_lg.jpg

[Dengue_Dude]

Well that looks pretty - is it real???

If it is, then a simple 'yes' would have done :)

[hello1]

Guess that there are lots of things that we want, but not so many things that we can afford. So, while a probe would have been just ducky, the A330 can already carry a bucket of fuel. As for the boom, it would also have been simply wonderful but our E3s can make do with a hose and I'm not quite sure why we need it for the C17. As for cost of renting someone else's tanker for a bit of boom practice, I doubt whether the economics of renting a boom-ed minifleet coupled with the additional fuel penalty of carrying that draggy thing around for 27 years would quite stack up.

Overall, I guess it comes down to why do we need these aircraft and right now, tanking is probably not at the top of the list. But I think that we can be fairly confident of one thing with this programme and that is that there will be an A330 on the line, on time in late 2011.;)

[Dengue_Dude]

Ah, the penny drops - using an A340 wing and using the hardpoints for missing Engines 1 and 4 - now that's clever.

So the answer is YES they know where to hang the pods - IF they use the nowse that the Aussies did - why do I feel that might be a problem?

Thanks for the information - good luck with the project.

[scpc]

Is the Brit version equipped with a centreline drogue?
Approx 5 of the FSTA will be capable of being fitted with FRUs for centre line refuelling.

FSTA using A330 wings - Pods hung from points where Engines 1 and 4 would be if it was an A340 wing, but with the A330 wing appropriately modified. (Possibly why the RAAF specifically ordered A340 wings).

The A330 as made by Airbus has effectively the same wing as the A340. The basic plan of bolting the pods where the 1 & 4 engine would go almost worked but the engineering was slightly more complicated than first thought.

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Flashdance

The first UK Sponsored Reserves were set up in 2000 using legislation under Reserve Foreces Act 1996, by moving a RAF VR unit within a specialist department of the MoD civil service to become RAFR as SRs. Since then, both Army and Royal Navy have used SRs. (The RN Roll on Roll Off ships being an example.)

All the information you need is in JSP567 & AP3392 Vol 7, including a chapter on SRs. Most other chapters in this fine tome also applicable to SRs.

The SR concept does work, most of the time, but needs very careful managing to ensure there is not a conflict of interests between "head office" priorities and the boys and girls on the coal face in uniform.

Experience has shown that some SRs are used fully on operations, taking on roles and duties out side of their specific "job" as would be expected of any other regular or reserve airman or officer of that rank. Other companies SRs however, are employed in different ways, and when in uniform are only allowed to do the specific job / role the MoD has contracted their employer to do. This may also place restrictions on the locations / situations they can be deployed to. This is no reflection on the boys and girls doing the job, just the differing nature of the SR contracts that can be very different between one company and the other.

[cheese bobcat]

As an ex-330 driver, I would have been only too glad to have the opportunity to fly as a reserve doing that sort of job. Unfortunately, I'm now too old.

My question is why wasn't the 330 pressed into service as a tanker much, much sooner. Carrying 110 tonnes of fuel and with a MTOW of 270 tonnes, it could probably carry 300 plus pongos as well.