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Top_Cat
3rd Apr 2009, 01:30
Hey guys/gals.

Newbie to flying here, gradually working towards my PPL with the aim of getting a CPL and then..........well, I dunno. I want to earn a living from flying and I'm prepared to travel to do it, just unsure of what fits best for me. Have airline ambitions too. Possibly.

So I guess what I'm looking for are opinions, not 'Aviation Career for Dummies'. See, I've learnt in my previous emergency service-related career to do a whole lot more listening than talking and the sum total so far? Totally foxed by it aviation. So many varied careers, so many varied experiences within the same career paths, etc.

One track I've heard people get on (if they don't do something like a Cathay scholarship) is to do your CPL then hour-build at a school instructing, then apply direct. But I've heard from another bloke that a few hundred hours with a small charter and associated boss breathing down your neck to get your butt in the air can trump 1000+ instructing when it comes to applying for jobs. I've also heard from others than hour-building, whilst it gets you to the airlines, you'll miss out on years of fun/interesting GA flying. Is there one way which is best for encuring future opportunities, for example?

So, in the spirit of listening to the experts, I guess I'm looking for experiences here. Would love to hear back-stories and recommendations. I'm sure threads have been done along these lines before so tell me to STFU n00b if warranted.

Even though I'm new to aviation, the more appealing option to me would appear to be getting my CPL + ratings then heading out into the big bad world rather than marking time at a school. I'm not in a rush to fly for an airline, I'd like to enjoy the working experience. The money aspect isn't a massive concern, as long as I get enough to live on, I'll be happy.

So, any takers? Would appreciate any insight you guys can give.

apache
3rd Apr 2009, 02:36
A bit more info mighhelp here....
1/ are you married
2/do you have kids
3/are you going to have a huge debt at the end of your training
4/what do you WANT to do?
5/ is there anything that may restrict you from flying bigger aircraft, or evben internationally?
6/ how much money do you want to be on at ages 35,40,50,60?....realistically!
etc.

Top_Cat
3rd Apr 2009, 03:44
Not married, no kids, I'm paying as I go at the moment so no debt for CPL at least. My job pays well but when I eventually start flying twins and paying for an instrument rating, maybe a small loan will be in order. Will see how I'm travelling then.

Want to do: Don't know for sure and I'm unsure how I can know that yet. I'd like to be an airline pilot eventually but I figure that'll change several times over the years to come.

Restrictions: No medical conditions. Physically fit, healthy, Class 1 medical from CASA, clean criminal record, etc. My former life granted me a security clearance so federally I'm clean too. Anything else I should be aware of?

Pay: No real figures in mind. I gather it's better to have a figure in mind when applying for jobs though? I'm not expecting awesome pay (first flying job is likely to earn less than half what I do now) but at the same time, I don't want to be taken advantage of by an operator who is just looking to screw pilots.

I guess I'm trying to be realistic about how to progress through this whole thing but, as I'm not a professional pilot, I don't know what 'realistic' is yet. I have a few mates doing well, one has almost finished his ATPL subjects, has been flying for 9 years, instructing for about 3 of those, he's done some charter flying, etc. But the career path seems pretty individualised with some general trends, I guess.

What can I say? I'm a flying n00b and just getting a feel for what's out there.

lilflyboy262
3rd Apr 2009, 04:17
Hey bud,

Well where to start... It is a long road, I've been at it for about 4 years now. Make sure you stick at it and dont get disheartened!
Instructing seems to be the way to go now, as it is very hard to find a job. A lot of pilots have lost their jobs doing the mining work, and are filling positions that low houred pilots would normally take.
The other path to take is looking at perhaps doing Skydiving.

If you are doing your job right as a Instructor, then you should only be touching the controls around about 10% of the time. Airlines know this, and will only really credit you with around 20% of your instructing time.
The way to be going at the moments seems to be looking North, up in Kununurra or Broome. I dont know of many people in Broome, but Alligator Airways and Sling Air are the big hirers in Kununurra.
You need to be up there around Feburary, and pretty much stay in town hounding them for a job, not too much, but enough to let them know that you are there.
Make sure you bring a lot of books, dvds and anything else to entertain you, there isnt much there. Also a big culture shock with the locals.

The other thing you can do to broaden your horizons, is once you get everything signed off in aussie with your CASA licence, is through the Trans-tasmen mutual argeement, you can convert your licence and associated ratings over to a NZ CAA licence. There is a lot of parachuting operations in NZ and you can build your hours quite quickly. If you are lucky, there is the odd turbine operator out there as well.

Some people say not to do your IFR until later, as it is expensive to keep current, but it is a good way of knocking out 30-50 hours of flying to help get your experience up there. I suggest doing it after your CPL, not during, it will cost you more, but as I mentioned before, you will have 250 hours with a MEIR, instead of 200 hours with a MEIR.

Pay, your looking at bugger all for the first few years of your flying career, get used to it. But on the bright side, conditions do improve as you work your way up the food chain.

If you are near the coast, and the coastguard are operating, drop in, talk to them, most of the time they use volunteers as pilots, so its a good way to rack up some free time, and at the same time getting that feel good factor in saving someones life.

My suggestion is to look outside of NZ and Aussie, and into South East Asia or Africa. Usually the aviation regulations are a bit relaxed in the more "Third world countries" and dont require a licence conversion, or if they do it usually isnt hard, basically just a bit of $ in the back pocket of someone thats in a position of power. A lot of the places are a bit dodgy, but keep your head down, dont take any risks, and you will come out ok on the otherside. Remember that most air accidents come from a chain of events, so if your smart with your flying, and dont get lazy, you will catch the chain before it gets you!

I hope this helps!
Feel free to ask anymore questions.

tmpffisch
3rd Apr 2009, 05:22
Thanks lilflyboy262 for your informative post. I'm in the same boat as Top_Cat with no ties & little debt.

Any other advice from others will be greatly appreciated.

Krazy
3rd Apr 2009, 05:29
I'm also in a very similar boat - except that I have just got my CPL as of a few weeks ago. So please, keep the thoughts and ideas flowing, it's always great to learn from others' experiences.

In my few weeks of trying to find a job (anything), I've found that it pays to be young and have no ties - ie., head up north and hope for the best. I'm trying to do it from the position of someone in a well paid job which is hard to leave when there's nothing to go to (mortgage). Still, an option though...

mcgrath50
3rd Apr 2009, 10:12
Someone mentioned being older (30s) is better than being younger (20s) when going for that first job because the Chief Pilot knows passengers will think the 30 year old has more experience than the 20 year old, no matter what the logbooks say...

:ok: Dunno if it's accurate but age could be an advantage! If it's not, it dosnt matter then.

Der absolute Hammer
3rd Apr 2009, 13:24
Yes but - I do not think that the NZ Coastguard has pilots on their books or who fly for them. I think it uses volunteer pilots who provide the aircraft as well?

lilflyboy262
3rd Apr 2009, 14:52
I know for a fact that the coastgaurd aircraft operated out of Ardmore is their own aircraft. A C182, and it is also flown by volunteers. I know cause I did it ;)

Ultergra
4th Apr 2009, 01:09
Took me 10 years to get myself into the shinny jets, and the road was long, mainly by choice, but the adventure along the way, made the day's today all worth the while!

I started out instructing... I feel that this is a good head start into the scene because you are supervised constantly by more experienced Grade 1's and the CFI, plus the student who is paying a lot of money to learn, will let the CFI know ASAP if he is not happy with the standard of professionalism being showm to them. Instructing keeps you on your toes, it does teach you how to fly again, and the pleasure that you will get from seeing your students learn and yourself progressing through to the higher ranks of hopefully a Grade One, and maybe even Multi Teaching is invaluable!

I then left to go do some charter. To be honest, some of the greatest flying known to man! The freedom, the larger more sophisticated machinery, the decisions you need to make, and the now real commercial pressures that you take in your stride. Charter helps to refine the experience that you already have behind you. But starting out with Charter will prove to be a great learning experience all the same. Charter can be done out of the top end of Oz (FNQ, NT, WA) then perhaps back to a capital city to continue with charter or maybe moving onto RPT.

From here you should be nicely experienced with the hours and the ATPL's to start applying to airlines. I flew high capacity RPT turboprops around for a while, and again, the flying was insane! Nice to have real engineering support, ground staff, flight attendants etc etc... makes flying seem real again. To be honest, I miss it.

Moved onto the airlines, I hardly fly, heaps of study, it's more of a lifestyle, but like I said at the start, looking back it makes the journey worth while, I have no complaints. The fliyng is wonderful, when you go flying, the lifestyle is just unbeatable, home a lot more than I ever have been...

Looking back, Regional flying was great, and I do miss it, sometime I wish I had stayed there. But if I did, I would always want to know what the airlines were all about...

Food for thought about the big decisions you're about to make... good luck with it :)

207Wannabe
4th Apr 2009, 09:33
I say take the opportunities as they come! Planning ahead in the unpredictable world of aviation is tricky and can be frustrating. Set your goals then be flexible!

Instructing v's charter.... they are both different and you will pick up different skills in each discipline. Having worked in both chater and instructing I believe I have benefited from both.

I'm not sure about the airlines only counting 20% of instructing hours? That made me laugh! Airlines these days are looking for people who can work with others in the cockpit environment. Instructing gives you that experience. And to train a student from "Effects of controls" through to their CPL pre licence requires a solid grasp of every aspect of flying.

Do it all. Enjoy it all. :ok:

Got the horn
4th Apr 2009, 22:57
If you are doing your job right as a Instructor, then you should only be touching the controls around about 10% of the time. Airlines know this, and will only really credit you with around 20% of your instructing time.

What the? I think you'll find the majority of airline pilots (in NZ) come from an instructing background. The airlines do not credit you with 20% of your instructing time. If this were the case then to get into EAG/RLK etc an instructor with say 1000 hours instructing would be credited with having 200 hours. So in order to get the 1000 hours minimums you'd need 5000 hours instructing. It doesn't sound very logical does it?

lilflyboy262
4th Apr 2009, 23:28
Sorry I didnt put that comment into any context.

You walk into Eagle Air with 1000 hours instructing, its a mix of everything, single, twin, night, and some IFR thrown in there for good measure.

Another person walks in after working for Great Barrier with 1000 hours of ATOs. Single, Twin, Night and IFR ATOs.

Its all credited the same in your logbook and his. But who do you think Eagle would be more interested in?
Its just a fact that I have heard from one of Eagles past training captains.

In no way, shape or form am I putting instructing down. It does help you immensely, It also helps train you in crisis management!!! I know that you get into a lot more situations instructing than on charter work! I just think you will find that it will be a LOT easier for you if you use instruction as a stepping stone to get into a small ATO airline, then into a regional one after that.
As 2 of the guys here who have commented, and had success in getting somewhere (Or so it seems by their comments) they have both come from instruction AND small charter first.

Top_Cat
5th Apr 2009, 23:17
Thanks guys, indeed some serious food for thought and I appreciate it muchly! A sojourn in NZ sounds bloody appealing. haha