US buys Russian helicopters

[heli1]

So Obama's government is buying Russian Mils for Iraq ....22 more adding to previous buys.
How does this fit with the "BUY AMERICA " brigade in his administration and threats to freeze out purchases from Europe ?

[Rotorhead11]

The Americans have been using Russian gear in Afghanistan since 2002 and have been training on Mi8 series (mtv) in the states for many years, the performance of these types at elevations and temps experienced there and their demonstrated reliability in that theatre (both Iraq and AFG) is the reason. There is no American equivalent. You would need to replace these guys with NH90 to get a similar result at USD18m a shot you can have between four to five used 17's with a proven track record sionce the 60's and no waiting, remember also that the MI8mtv is the most battle proven helicopter in the world today. Its a common sense approach and not the first time the Americans use Russian aircraft, we have been supporting them for years in places like Afghanistan/Iraq/Columbia etc etc etc and continue to do so, it make more sense for them to own the machines than lease them continuously.
Cheers

[SASless]

Please Sir.....Obama's promises and policies all come with time limits.....usually about 0.3 Nanoseconds from the time uttered!:=

At least he is buying foreign goods as a sign of good faith....right?:rolleyes:

[chopper2004]

I know this may be semi off the beaten track, but we here in the UK have done the buy from the East to be supplied to another country. , as the MOD supplied MI-17 from Kazan Helicopters to Nepalese armed forces 5-6 years back :)

[rufus.t.firefly]

Mil - helicopter also available in red white and blue ........

[Ian Corrigible]

I wouldn't worry about the loss of business for our industry. Baghdad's current shopping list (funded by us) includes:

36 F-16s
36 AT-6B Texan IIs
20 T-6As
50 407s (up from the original 24)
140 M1 Abrams (rumored to be doubling to 280)
400 Strykers
565 120mm mortars
665 81mm mortars
$150M worth of M4/M16/M203s
Plus some LockMart (sorry, KAI) T-50s...

:hmm:

Still, on the bright side those 22 Mi-17s are being purchased at a unit cost of only $3.6M. So if we bought 28 for the POTUS, we'd save $12.9 Bn of the $13 Bn that the VH-71 Presidential Helicopter program is costing us... :E

I/C

[CanaDriver]

maybe he's following the lead of alot of police agencies and EMS providers
in the usa buying local machines :rolleyes:

the russian stuff is built like a brick s*ithouse thou

[zlocko2002]

If you need machine to do a serious business Mi-8mtv1 is The One!
it is not comfortable or high tech, it has only basic nav equipment, no autopilot, just a sas, but it also doesn't have torqmeter ( I can remember the face of USN pilot after takeoff and climb with 5000ft/min) :O

[mini]

Yeah, minimal in service heavy maintenance (apart from flaky engines) but when its OOH its serious downtime.

Swings & roundabouts...:ok:

[Jolly Green]

More advantages: The recycled Saddam-era pilots already know how to fly it. The recycled mechanics know how to maintain it.

[Rotorhead11]

Have any of you guys worked in Afghanistan or Iraq? In particular the smart remark from Rufus.T. Firefly makes me wonder............Climb back into whatever makes you happy and stay away from that part of the world that does'nt, we neither want or need you there.:=

[Hilico]

I've come across technicians in an aviation museum measuring up a Hind cockpit with lasers to get the exact shape and size. The idea is they then go away and build an American cockpit into a Russian airframe, with all the advantages that brings.

[9Aplus]

Denel, South African esteem defense supplier done that already, 2 flying demonstrators, only if you like to "reinvent the fire"

[This aint Jim Beam]

Well if we could make a decent helicopter here maybe the local Law Enforcement guys would buy one. More focus on the customer and less on Lynn Tiltons getting a tattoo on her ass might make all the difference.
Theres nothing wrong with russian gear its just a different approach to design. Cant say its wrong. Although i would say Russian gear needs to be flown and fixed by russians, they speak the right "language"

[Trojan1981]

MI-8MTV-1, the most reliable helicopters in Timor when I was there. When the Hueys and BHs were grounded the Ruskies would be there to pick up the pieces. Lots of fun too:ok:
I belive they are still there, 10 years later!

[Ian Corrigible]

This whole deal is now looking a tad murky. According to the two links below, the March 27th announcement (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/104071/us-orders-22-mi_17ct-helos,-m_16-rifles-for-iraq.html) that ARINC was awarded "...a $80,600,000 firm fixed price contract for the procurement and delivery of (22) Mi-17CT helicopters in support of the Iraqi Government" now in actual fact appears to be the final payment of a $322M deal for these aircraft. The Army's Threat Systems Management Office (TSMO) reportedly awarded ARINC the contract on a sole-source Urgent Requirement basis (back in 2006), and then itself arranged for Mil to declare that ARINC was its only authorized supplier for the type (presumably based on ARINC's support activities at Nellis).

How to Get a No-Bid Contract for Russian Choppers (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/04/emails-reveal-u.html)

Helo Fiasco: U.S. Pays $322 Million, Still No Choppers (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/04/helo-fiasco-us.html)

I/C

[9Aplus]

Interesting facts Ian, for BIG $322M have no info at all except that some of Iraq designated new built Mi8MTV was finally sold to Macedonia (4 units, guess)
but for 22 units $80M deal can tell that it is real bargain to get Mi8 MTV on M3,6$ price level after MOH, means full 1500 h resource, that is good deal which I am ready to sign today.

[spoonta]

I agree mate.
spent 3 years with PAE there flying most days, now in afghanistan doing the same thnig and no other chopper can deal with nthr height & weight ,etc
like the, MTV forget about mi8t models though exept and sea level :ok:ops

[Skycop9]

Actually Obama bought the helicopters for the Talaban. He wants to be fair. He is currently working on free health care and college tuition for captured terrorists.:mad:

[remote hook]

Actually Obama bought the helicopters for the Talaban. He wants to be fair. He is currently working on free health care and college tuition for captured terrorists.


Just like Bush Sr gave Sadam his Bells back to commit atrocities against the Kurds.... if you're going spout off, at least pretend you know something about the topic. It's ignorant **** like that which makes this site so irrelevant sometimes.

When was the last time YOU were in Afghanistan?

RH

[allenmae2002]

Just trying to catch up with you Mate, were you with PAE ET 2001? I was in Baucau.

[email protected]

[amrglobal]

Interesting thread. More to the point that I am trying to source 8 for purchase and this news is not good for business. There is now a severe shortage of Mi8-T and Mi8-MTVs due to this transaction. Also have been told that other operators in Ukraine and Russia, are now therefore reluctant to sell their stock and hold onto them in the hope they can jump onto the back of lease contracts in Iran and Afghanistan.

[9Aplus]

For new machines You just need to have $ and some friends....
\pls send me \PM with your needs :ok:

[ARRAKIS]

Looks like the Poles are also starting a tender for another 5 Mi-17. Afghanistan mission shortage.

Arrakis

[Ian Corrigible]

Looks like the game's up: Janes (http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/index.shtml) reports that Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama has written to SecDef Robert Gates asking him to stop the procurement of Mi-17s for the Iraqi and Afghan militaries, saying the program has inadequate oversight and is "undefined, delayed and simply not a good use of taxpayer funds." The Iraqi procurement effort already discussed in this thread is singled out for attention, being described as "plagued by mass corruption."

Maybe Iraq can contract for support from the newly established NATO HIP Helicopter Task Force (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/109346/nine-nato-allies-launch-transport-helicopter-pool.html). :E

I/C

[9Aplus]

Looks like the Poles are also starting a tender for another 5 Mi-17. Afghanistan mission shortage.

Arrakis

Confirmed....

[ARRAKIS]

Tender requirements were published in September.
You can find them on the net.

Arrakis

[Heli_Leaser]

Arrakis,

Is this tender still ongoing? Can you possibly send a link?

I have 50+ Mil-8's for sale as well as Lease Options.

Many Thanks...

[charlos]

with so many around, (theyr'e the most produced helicopter in the world)
one would think gettting a chance to fly one would'nt be terribly difficult, presuming you're already proficient in something similar in size or bigger and longline proficient with previous international experience. however i've been lookin and so far its like ringo star says "it dont come easy"
any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

[9Aplus]

I have only 2 new Mi171 units available ( not 50+, this is kind of miracle :E)
and tender is done, see here pls:
Metalexport wins the contract for Polish Mi-17 helicopters for Afghanistan | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub-com/metalexport-wins-the-contract-for-polish-mi-17-helicopters-for-afghanistan/5720/)

[Ian Corrigible]

Pakistan (or perhaps by now ATEC) has a few going spare... :E

Pakistan Returns Free Helicopters to US (http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/pakistan-is-returning-free-helicopters-to-us/19399518)

I/C

[Heli_Leaser]

Looks like a Cost of $21,200,000 for Each Mi-17!!! :ooh:

9APlus, if you are in need of more NEW Mi171's PM me... :ok:

[Heli_Leaser]

9APlus, the 50+ Units are obviously not NEW. These are Mi-8's available that we can Rehaul - YOM between 1983 and 99.

[Ian Corrigible]

Update:

U.S. DoD: "We're buying 21 Mi-17s for Afghanistan. Who's interested?" (https://www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/NAVAIR/N00019/N00019-10-R-0032/listing.html)

Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) & Sen. Dick Shelby (R-Ala.): "Say what?" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/18/AR2010061805630.html)

Sikorsky (with acknowledgement to Triumph the Insult Comic Dog): "We're gonna sue your friggin ass!" (http://articles.courant.com/2010-08-04/business/hc-sikorsky-navy-russia-afghan-protes20100804_1_sikorsky-spokesman-paul-jackson-russian-helicopters-afghan-pilots)

I/C

[Ian Corrigible]

NAVAIR punts Afghan Mi-17 procurement to NSRWA (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4493356).

Subsequent to the issuance of this RFP, the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy pursued clarification of the process for procuring these Mi-17 aircraft pursuant to Russian laws and regulations. The Department of State has been informed by the Russian Federation Ministry of Foreign Affairs that any United States Government contract for procuring the Mi-17 aircraft for use by the Afghan Air Force cannot be conducted through civil means and must be effected only through the federal state unitary enterprise Rosoboronoeksport as a military export, a requirement that no existing awardable proposal meets.

After learning the position of the Russian Government, the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Logistics, and Technology has removed NAVAIR’s authority to continue procuring the Mi-17 aircraft. Therefore this RFP is cancelled and the Army Non-Standard Rotary Wing Program Management Office will assume program and contract management responsibilities for procurement of these Mi-17 aircraft.

I/C

[jiggyman524]

Who has the contract of Afghanistan for MI-17 helicopters ? Anyone looking to lease ?

[rotor-rooter]

Looks like this procurement is coming under some rather intense scrutiny!

Exclusive: Pentagon opens criminal probe of Russian helicopter deals - News - KFGO The Mighty 790AM - Fargo Moorhead, ND (http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2013/aug/29/exclusive-pentagon-opens-criminal-probe-of-russian-helicopter-deals/)

[heli1]

Actually this was in the public domain some time ago. Both H' Data and Helicopter Int ran stories on this.it seems that Army officials were by no means squeaky clean .

[rotor-rooter]

Looks like they finally caught up with this total procurement fiasco.

https://www.helicoptersmagazine.com/news/trump-scorns-obamas-decision-on-mi-17-7170

You can read the report here if you so desire. https://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/June_2017_1225_Report_to_Congress.pdf

What an utter, inept, failure. Who is it they are trying to investigate for connections to the Russians again? Of course, it will all be swept under the carpet and no-one will ever be held accountable. Just like all those Department of State S61"T"'s purchased for $14M a copy, barely flown and then disposed of surplus for pennies on the dollar. Who was the Secretary of State in charge of that department?

[jimcarler]

Looks like they finally caught up with this total procurement fiasco.

https://www.helicoptersmagazine.com/news/trump-scorns-obamas-decision-on-mi-17-7170

You can read the report here if you so desire. https://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/June_2017_1225_Report_to_Congress.pdf

What an utter, inept, failure. Who is it they are trying to investigate for connections to the Russians again? Of course, it will all be swept under the carpet and no-one will ever be held accountable. Just like all those Department of State S61"T"'s purchased for $14M a copy, barely flown and then disposed of surplus for pennies on the dollar. Who was the Secretary of State in charge of that department?

Looks like a 'crooked' deal to me

[Ian Corrigible]

What an utter, inept, failure. Of course, it will all be swept under the carpet and no-one will ever be held accountable.
In the context of the $6 trillion (or thereabouts (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/27/donald-trump/did-us-spend-6-trillion-middle-east-wars/)) spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, fully agree. However, three points to bear in mind on the specific topic of Mi-17s and S-61Ts:
The purchase of Mi-17s for Iraq and Afghanistan was kicked off in 2006, with the controversial $322 million contract to ARINC awarded in December 2007
The State Department's S-61T buy was specifically undertaken in an attempt to reduce reliance on Mi-8/17s (after extensive lobbying by Sikorsky and its Congressional delegation)
The S-61T program was wound up as a direct result of the USA's 2014 Afghanistan drawdown
Sikorsky's Troy facility has been directly impacted by the S-61T program cancellation, with 100 layoffs made in recent years, and a further 25% headcount reduction (160 employees) was announced (http://www.wsfa.com/story/35801849/160-sikorsky-workers-receive-layoff-notices-in-troy) just this week, as a result of the Navy's MH-60R production program nearing completion.

Still, Sikorsky does now stand to benefit from the decision announced (http://www.janes.com/article/65642/afghan-air-force-to-field-black-hawk-helos-in-place-of-mi-17s) last November to end any further Mi-17 purchases for Afghanistan, which will now receive refurb'd UH-60A Black Hawks instead.

Regardless, the U.S. Govt will remain one of the biggest operators of Mi-8/17s, which have been operated by various TLAs for decades. AFM (http://shop.keypublishing.com/issue/View/issue/AFM314/airforces-monthly-may-2014) ran an interesting piece in May 2014, in which it identified 50 or so Hips in U.S. service.

I/C

[Lonewolf_50]

From the report linked by rotor-rooter Along with the increased expense and difficulty in maintaining the Mi-17 helicopter fleet, utility helicopters are in high demand and the required maintenance exceeds current capacity and capability, leading to maintenance backlogs and a reduced number of aircraft available. Included in the recapitalization effort is an initiative to transition the force away from Russian-made Mi-17 helicopters to more reliable, cost-effective, and easier to sustain U.S.-made UH-60 helicopters. I wonder if those UH-60As, refurb'd, will go through an A-L mod or remain in the A configuration. There's a difference in Max Gross Weight of 1700+ pounds. (At least according to the little cheat sheet I keep from an old Sikorsky blurb on A, L, and M).

[Mee3]

yea right, like the Iraqis can drive black hawk or whatever out US made of the box.

[Lonewolf_50]

@Mee3: This has to do with Afghanistan, not Iraq. With the combined brevity and incoherence of your post, would you please explain just what it is that you mean?

[Ian Corrigible]

I wonder if those UH-60As, refurb'd, will go through an A-L mod or remain in the A configuration.

C/o Av Week (http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/black-hawks-replace-russian-mainstay-afghan-inventory):

The Black Hawks to be delivered to the Afghan army will be UH-60A+s, with a lighter airframe than the UH-60A but fitted with the General Electric T700-GE-701C engines that equip the heavier UH-60L. The Pentagon says this model is more appropriate for Afghanistan's climate and terrain.

I/C

[Lonewolf_50]

I was thinking of the IDGB that came into vogue when the Navy got the Seahawk based on the S-70/UH-60 design. That gear box upgrade (IIRC) informed the improvements to the UH-60L gear box .... anyway, Ian, thanks for the link. I suspect most of the upgrade work will take place in CONUS so that conversion job looks to be spreading some DoD dollars to various districts.