Desert pink?

[fallmonk]

Just a quick question why dont the RAF use this in afganaistan/iraq?
i remeber seeing a lot of AC in this colour in GW1????

[TheWizard]

It's not in line with Equality and Diversity policy (and it washes off in the rain!)

[Wensleydale]

The level of threat to the aircraft does not match the cost of the repaint. Everything is about money these days - not the military advantage.

[barnstormer1968]

Maybe the RAF should buy some better paint (yes I know it was temporary).
The SAS pinkies from the 1960's seemed to have more long lasting pink paint.
As I often see a pink cammo landrover* near where I live, then I guess the paint can withstand the frequent British rain

*This particular landy is a very sad looking lightweight, with a blue canvas, and is hardly in keeping with an urban environment.

Anyhow, I hope it is something to do with the toughness of the RAF paint, and nothing irrelevent, like the lack of an opposition air force to hide from.:}

[Pontius Navigator]

The issue of camouflage had been a given since the 2nd World War until a far thinking civil servant questioned the policy. In the late 60s the NEAF and MEAF aircraft sported rather fine light brown and dark brown high gloss with a white bonnet etc.

Anyway he went back to first principles. In Central Europe the main purpose of camouflage was to conceal aircraft on the ground and make them harder for the enemy to spot. That was when the Lightnings, for the first time, got an all over paint job.

Other aircraft, like the Nimrod, had been coloured like a sea gull except it was upside down. It was determined that the Hemp colour was better for ground concealment but also had benefits over the sea and so on.

Then there was a requirement to put Arctic camo on the UK MF ac. He also trialled pink on a C130 at Kingsfield strip. It was nigh impossible to see as the colour matched the terrain. As terrain colours varied so much they developed special paints that were relatively cheap, could be formulated and applied quickly and ultimately washed off to that aircraft could be returned to their cold war theatres in the right colours. GW1 was the first operational use of the new schemes.

That camouflage against ground attack was also relatively effective for low level strike was a bonus. Later, with the higher levels and lower attack threat, colours for air to air were developed which is why the aircraft all have shades of blue.

[isaneng]

The Herc at Kingsfield was pink - apart from the top of the fin. Ladder wasn't long enough. And some were grey/green. And some were grey/green/light grey. And all over green. And grey. Black nosed and painted nose. And of course the white one. And the 2 tone green one......

[Pontius Navigator]

The Herc at Kingsfield was pink - apart from the top of the fin. Ladder wasn't long enough.

How do you know? You would have been barely 10 at the time.:}

[Double Zero]

Aircraft paint is a whole science to itself...

I photographed lots of export Hawks which had
virtually bare leading edges even prior to delivery ( tough plastic tape was tried in these areas, with limited affect ).

Radar Absorbent Material ( R.A.M.) paint as used in the Falklands by Harriers is particularly soft.

The cost of painting an aircraft is very surprisingly high.

[microlight AV8R]

Would that be the strip at Dhekelia, Eastern SBA, Cyprus ?

Just stirred my memory gland. I recall a C130 sitting there for ages after being hit by a hangar.
Remember seeing it from the school bus when on way to Pergamos. Must've been around 1972 methinks.

[Softie]

Fallmonk

As the person responsible for getting the Jags painted in Desert Pink in 1991, I can possibly answer your question. The RAF went into Gulf War 1 with the same low level doctrine of the Cold War in the European theatre - head east under the radar. The washable pink camouflage was applied overnight at Coltishall with this in mind. The Tornados were similiarly painted but after they suffered heavy loses in airfield attacks using JP233 they followed the Americans to medium level and started using Paveway and Pavespike-equipped Bucaneers.

Since 1991 in Iraq and from 2001 in Afghanistan there has been no air threat, so operating high with precision weapons makes the light grey camouflage ideal for reducing visibility to ground forces, like the Taleban, with possible shoulder-launched SAMs.

[Monkey Madness]

Would that be the strip at Dhekelia, Eastern SBA, Cyprus ?

Kingsfield Airfield is a 4000' strip between Dhekelia and what is now the ruins of RAF Pergamos in the Eastern SBA.

Dhekelia has it's own 1300' (ish) strip where 16 flight AAC (IIRC) operated fro.

MM

[XFTroop]

Just itching to post on this thread but need info on how to attach a jpeg photo; anyone help? PM if so.
XFT

[BEagle]

Oink oink.....

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/PinkPig.jpg

The 'Pink Pigs' which arrived at KKIA in early 1991 had a very effective colour scheme. It more then halved reflected light, compared to the TriStar's original trucky white colour.

[Pontius Navigator]

Softie, I think we squared the circle. Surprising that the RAF remembered trials done 20 years before. Less surprising that you painted the Jags as you had been painting them Arctic much of the time.

[Double Zero]

Nothing's new;

Photo' recce' Spitfires varied between light blue & pink !

The fact remains that fast jets suffer considerable paint erosion on leading edges.

[fallmonk]

SOFTIE,
Fallmonk

As the person responsible for getting the Jags painted in Desert Pink in 1991, I can possibly answer your question. The RAF went into Gulf War 1 with the same low level doctrine of the Cold War in the European theatre - head east under the radar. The washable pink camouflage was applied overnight at Coltishall with this in mind. The Tornados were similiarly painted but after they suffered heavy loses in airfield attacks using JP233 they followed the Americans to medium level and started using Paveway and Pavespike-equipped Bucaneers.

Since 1991 in Iraq and from 2001 in Afghanistan there has been no air threat, so operating high with precision weapons makes the light grey camouflage ideal for reducing visibility to ground forces, like the Taleban, with possible shoulder-launched SAMs.


Does this mean the JP233 Is dumped out the the currant practice?
or will be used if neeeds must ?

[viz]

Does this mean the JP233 Is dumped out the the currant practice?


You're raisin a good point there...:ouch:

[Jimmy Macintosh]

Wasn't the JP233 deemed to be contrary to the Geneva Convention on the use of anti personnel mines?

I thought is was withdrawn from service after that.

[BEagle]

After Gulf War 1, the JP233 was withdrawn from service as it was felt that stand-off munitions could achieve the same goals with much lower risk to aircrew. Additionally, the 215 HB-876 mines contained within each JP233 could no longer be used after Britain signed the Ottawa Treaty - which bans the use of anti-personnel mines.

I always wondered whether the device used to quench oil well fires in Kuwait (a jet engine on the back of an old T-34 tank chassis driven by remote control, into whose exhaust water was injected) was actually designed to hose the anti-personnel mines off Eastern bloc runways - the boffins at Hunting having assumed that Ivan would use a bulldozer.....:8

[MrBernoulli]

I thought it was the (then) JSP318 that the Tornadoes dropped on the enemy positions ..... and bored the buggers to death!:rolleyes:

[BEagle]

;)

Or more likely JSP101??

:bored::bored::bored:......:zzz:

[Pontius Navigator]

Ok, enough has been said :)

Hunting was developing the JP233 in the early 70s which means it is 34 year old technology. At the time we concluded that the best delivery means was to put a rocket motor on it, to fly over a known position, and drop it from outside the target defences. The man from Hunting blanched as he thought we were going to cancel the project.

JP233 was not a bomb but a munitions system with a given number of shipset ordered to match targets and aircraft attrition when employed in the CR against a very precise target set. When deployed to the Gulf the munitions were from a very small CR war stock. Once the initial attacks had been launched I think we simply ran out of the stores. We might have had a few but that was the bottom of the RAFG barrel.

By the time we drew breath the cold war was over and funds were probably directed elsewhere rather than reordering more of the same. Then, as Beagle and others have said, the sub-munition was seen to be against the Geneva convention so humanity and fiscal imperatives conspired to prevent reorders. JP233 had its day and was highly successful, the USAF had nothing to match it. Now you can achieve the same effect, on new target sets, with the likes of Hellfire, Brimstone, Paveway and Storm Shadow.

[Double Zero]

I thought that JP233 was a suicidal prat weapon.

I've been at Test Ranges when the lot was dispensed ; 2 points, the resident test team at West Freugh reckoned it barely scuffed the runway - yes I know it's details - and flying down an enemy runway is asking for trouble in a big way-.

BL755 and the Navy's 'flasher' pilot incapacitation laser - as apparently not used in the Falklands - were also bannned via the Geneva Convention.

All I can say is if my ship was being bombed I'd use anything to hand, and while JP233 was a stupid weapon which would'nt have worked in WW2, BL755 might be jolly handy against the Taliban !

[BEagle]

Once the initial attacks had been launched I think we simply ran out of the stores. We might have had a few but that was the bottom of the RAFG barrel.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Not so.

According to Sir Peter de la Billiere (see pp232-233 of Storm Command, writing about early medium level efforts by the Tornado force after the low level attacks had been discontinued:

"..we could see that the radar bombing had been largely ineffective"

"....proposals were put to Paddy Hine for making more effective use of the Tornados and JP233. Considerable work had been done, both by senior staff officers in the Ministry of Defence and in industry, to evaluate the effeciveness of the weapon against targets other than airfield surfaces, and as a result recommendations were made that certain key targets which were less heavily defended than the airbases."

"The proposals from London for new JP233 attacks therefore caused us some consternation. While Bill (Wratten) and his commanders were considering them, I happened to see an informal letter from a high-ranking RAF officer (who, I must stress, was not in the chain of command) suggesting that the whole future of the Tornado and JP233 would be called into question after the war if the combination was not seen to be more effective."

In other words, there was no question of having run out of weapons stocks. The cocktail-party warriors of Whitehall actually wanted to use more - no doubt to boost post-war sales......

[Double Zero]

Beagle,

Are you sure no losses were incurred by using JP233 ? I've seen the thing/s on test ranges, and even then it seemed to make the Tornado a very easy target.

Gulf War 1 would seem to confirm this, including people who have gone on to become T.V. Presenters, from what I can tell with good reason...

DZ

[BEagle]

6 RAF Tornados were lost in combat:



17 Jan 1991 - ZD791 (Flt Lt John Peters and Flt Lt 'John' Nichol) Cause not positively determined, but crew reported an engine fire before ejecting. Mission was against Shaibah, but not with JP233. Crew taken POW.
19 Jan 1991 - ZA392 (Wg Cdr Nigel Elsdon and Flt Lt Max Collier*) Possibly hit by a SAM 3 minutes after attacking Shaibah. Crew killed.
20 Jan 1991 - ZA396 (Flt Lt David Waddington and Flt Lt Robert Stewart) Hit by SAM when pulling up for a toss-bombing attack on Talil. Crew taken POW.
22 Jan 1991 - ZA467 (Sqn Ldr Gary Lennox and Sqn Ldr Kevin Weeks) Shot down during toss-bombing attack on Ar Rutbah radar site. Crew killed.
23 Jan 1991 - ZA403 (Fg Off Simon Burges and Sqn Ldr Robert Ankerson) Premature 1000 lb bomb detonation after release. Crew taken POW.
14 Feb 1991 - ZD717 (Flt Lt Rupert Clark and Flt Lt Stephen Hicks) Shot down during medium level LGB attack. Flt Lt Clark taken POW, Flt Lt Hicks killed.

No losses occurred during delivery of JP233.

[Double Zero]

Beagle,

Are you sure we didn't lose any Tornado's on JP233 attacks in Gulf War 1 ?

I've seen the thing used live at West Freugh, brilliant for air displays but a sitting target for even the crudest AAA, wouldn't have had a hope even in WW2...

I wonder what Mr Peters & Nichol think ?!

[Double Zero]

Beagle,

you obviously have more details / knowledge to hand than I have; I was always under the impression that JP233 runs were virtually suicidal, and I think you'll agree !

Toss or 'loft' bombing seems a good idea, though the snag is one comes up to relatively high altitude in the process, exposing the aircraft to radar etc.

From the description, it seems Peters & Nichol's aircraft was hit in the starboard wing, possibly by a shoulder launched missile, which ignited the Sidewinder on it's pylon with catastrophic results.

I once ( before all this ) had a discussion with a bunch of Tornado Navigators and a Test Pilot who swore that jamming systems would get them through anything; well apart from radar guided AAA, I've yet to see a jamming system which deflects cannon shells or even AK-47 bullets.

[BEagle]

No RAF Tornados were lost during JP233 delivery.

Toss bombing wasn't terribly safe; neither was it very accurate.

As for radar-guided AAA, I couldn't agree more. Lead, particularly well-aimed explosive lead, in sufficient quantity has a quality of its own....:eek:

Which is doubtless why all our RAFG airfields used to bristle with radar-guided AAA during the Cold War...

Or rather, they didn't...:rolleyes:

Hunting used to make much of the threat posed by the UXB bomblets and time-delayed mines. "Couldn't clear them with a bulldozer - the blade would be blown off!".

Whereas a very high pressure water cannon? Didn't think of that, I guess.

Boffins. Salt of the earth!!

[Wensleydale]

The Grauniad once famously described JP233 as a "Runway Catering Weapon". I had visions of minelets in the shape of British Rail Pork Pies being dispensed over an airfield...... Now those were dangerous.