Casa Drug screening

[YELOSUB]

Hi all. I would like to know if anyone out there has had their medical/job affected by CASA implementation of their DAMP?

[Capt Claret]

I'd have thought it's a bit too early to tell. As I understand it, the legislation passed into Australian law about Sept 2008 and the regulator allowed a 6 month grace period for Industry to come to terms with it, and provide the necessary training. Actual testing should have commenced in the last week.

[Freewheel]

One thing's for sure, CASA staff won't be affected, they're exempt.:hmm:

[13/31]

Not if they are airside !

[sms777]

If CASA employees took drugs and drank alcohol we may just see them do things in orderly and timely manner.
They certainly need something to kick start'em :confused:

[Grogmonster]

Guy's,

The start date for the DAMP was March 23rd. That was the date that all industry participants had to have a DAMP programme in place. It would be highly unlikely that anyone has been pinged to date. One would hope not anyway!!!!

Groggy

[topend3]

I'd like someone to post here when they first see testers turn up at an airport.

[VH-XXX]

They have their own internal policies for this just as in any workplace.

Think of them as the Police, Police don't get breathtested like a civillian whilst they are at work, same for these guys, but of course if they are suspected of activity thent they will be.

Of course if they were flying as part of their job they would be under scrutiny like any other pilot, but think about it, if you were a cop and you were on a random breath testing station and another cop drove by in a marked cal, would you pull him up and test him? I don't think so.

I can imagine their random testing will be blatantly obvious at the airfiled on the day, they may as well put a sign out the front like when they are ramp-checking.

[Bullethead]

Police don't get breathtested like a civillian whilst they are at work

Oh yes they do and drug tested as well. At least around here anyway.

Regards,
BH.

[VH-XXX]

I should have emphasised the word "random" with regard to Police breath testing.

[FourBalls]

The only people who should be concerned about the introduction of these random tests are the ones who know they should be concerned!:=

It really isn't that hard to be off the piss in time to be safe and legal for work. If something stronger/more illicit is your poison then expect a trip up **** creek with a turd for a paddle. Who gives a rats arse if people who get caught and lose their licence or whatever. The industry will be better off without them.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

[Bullethead]

VH-XXX

From a mate in the force it is random and done at the work place.

Regards,
BH.

[compressor stall]

If something stronger/more illicit is your poison then expect a trip up **** creek with a turd for a paddle. Who gives a rats arse if people who get caught and lose their licence or whatever. The industry will be better off without them.

You may know that there is quite an outbreak of whooping cough doing the rounds at the moment. For those of you who are parents of babies under 6 months and you are exposed to someone with Whooping Cough, it is the best medical advice to start a prophylactic course of antibiotics to ensure that you don't get it and thus pass it on to your bub.

It's a run of the mill antibiotic, with no restriction on your ability to fly. However, it will cause a positive test for Cocaine.

If you get caught anywhere in a random CASA test, you will be stood down immediately until it can be clarified - a process of a couple of days at best.

It matters not that you told your DAMP representative that you were taking the anti-biotic.

Do you go to work?

Discuss.

[porch monkey]

CS, there are quite a few other drugs in small amounts that are used quite legally and are tested for. As you said, "Do you go to work?" Quite! I can see this potentially getting a bit ugly.

[Counter-rotation]

You beat me to it CS...

Four-balls, your thoughts are all well and good in a perfect world, however that's not where I live and work!

CS, my answer to your hypothetical is: "why would I go to work and risk being stood down WITHOUT PAY, when I can go sick, stay home, and get paid? That's not to mention the stigma that would certainly stem from a positive result".

You have identified one good example of the flaws in this arrangement - there are many others I'm sure.

I'm not suggesting that NOTHING should be done, or that substance abusers should be allowed to populate the industry, but I simply do not think that any of this really has merit. I have never been convinced by any of the wishy-washy reasoning put forward for it all in the first place, and naturally the cost is borne by the industry.

Now that it is in, I am looking forward to see exactly how many potential menaces to the travelling public are filtered from the workplace by this random testing.

I also look forward to the "8 hour" rule being removed - I can have a beer (maybe two!) at lunch (say, 13:00), have a snooze, and sign on at 18:00 with a zero BAC and in breach of NOTHING.

I can have some wine after dinner in the evening, say three glasses, all done by 23:30, hit the hay and report for duty at 06:00 - again, zero BAC and in breach of NOTHING (except the reg that says "thou shalt not have a life!" - what number is that one again?!)

CASA you can't have your cake and eat it too (but no doubt you will try) :yuk:

What do you guys think?

CR.

P.S. Yeah, I love a drink, but not where it gives me any BAC whilst at work!!

[kingRB]

got a nice drugs & alcohol calendar from CASA in the mail today.
It contains the same "your limit" rule on it as i've seen on posters around the airport.

The big noted catch phrase being

"The limit for you is less than 0.02"

right.... ok....

read further on the big posters or your new flash desk calendar....

"The permitted level for alcohol is a concentration less than 0.02 grams of alcohol in 210 litres of breathe (0.02% BAC). The permitted level is equivalent to 0.00% alcohol as it will measure sufficient levels to detect consumption"

eh? does this make sense to anyone else?

So if the permitted level is actually 0.00% to ensure you are legal and dont get busted for consumption within 8 hours before you start flying, why does CASA think its a good idea to plaster huge lettering "The limit for you is less than 0.02" on its posters and marketing material :confused:

If you are trying to explain a simple rule for BAC, why would you use the wording "is less than" ? To me, this gives an initial misconception (and i'm sure people who dont read the fine print) that apparently its ok to be up to the "limit" of 0.02.

If you need to prove you are 0.00% BAC, why bother mentioning 0.02% at all??

[Kickatinalong]

I'm with you, our DAMP program is in use and being used as we speak. The printed matter (policy) is in print and on the main counter fo all to see and read.
I'm told there IS a DAMP person assigned to YSBK and he is there all the time. He will be visiting "all" places on Bankstown Airport.
BRING IT ON.
Kickatinalong.:D:D:D
There is nothing worse than a reformed drunk.

[Syd eng]

Anyone else notice that March does not exist on one side of the calendar that CASA sent out with the Drug notice.

[Mr_Pilot]

Looking at one of the recent Misc. Instruments that just came out in regards to the upcoming barrage of alcohol and drug testing about to take place, I was wondering if someone with a solid understanding of the CASR's in relation to this new area could explin that...

For example I was to be tested at YMMB, it would be by an independent provider (only with an affiliation to CASA), and this person would have to be a Doctor or Nurse - practicing specifically in the area of fluid collection and storage. Does this mean that delegated collectors -people without formal medical qualifications - will be in remote areas?

Who is going to pay for this service, now that CASA has its balls firmly positioned into the mentality of "user pay". I seriously think that spending 10 minutes with a qualified Doctor or Nurse is insane. I understand the want and need to be as professional as possible, but why not just allow all "capable people" to do the tests?

I do not propose creating another breed of "super humans" like what has been done with the outsorcing of many airport security firms. But why is there going to be so much more cost associated when there are mechanisms set up for autonomy and clarity within the (CASA) organisation already?

SIGH....

Stupid hand out to say the least, again it is user pays... thank you for a crappy product which I will never use and that has a month missing! Maybe next time I should look into the NPRM papers in a bit more detail... :hmm:

If you are not subscribed and are needing to get more confused about the issue please read on at... http://casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2009/CASAEX27.pdf

[Mr_Pilot]

"Rather then the calendar, I think some education is needed. We have to do annual briefs (15-45 mins), its a pain, but you do walk away with a better understanding."

Exactly my thinking too. What use is a PR exercise of a shoddy peice of un-informative paper where the situation becomes more and more clouded. The common sence rule should apply, and to anyone who "tries to poke holes in the rules" I am sure they will.

I just think that there should be a zero tolerance attitude to flying and drugs, as I was always taught, you were never to commence duty or flying "if under the influence of a drug that may impair judgement/thinking". Aviation in my eyes is not part of drug taking culture, and excluding some rouge elements of the industry, never had the capacity to harbour it. The catalyst for this PR spin was a set of unfortunate events of pilots that "may" have been under the influence of drugs in the previous 2 days or more.

I honestly think you are an idiot to risk your licence with alcohol let alone drugs. If more emphasis had been put into curbing the culture of these rouge elements and proactive thought processes rather than reactionary "look at me I am doing something, and now have given everyone a piece of plastic, therefore they will not do drugs" stunt, then maybe I would not be so picky as to thier ruling.

You are quite right in saying that this process is not aviation specific, and I think it is a good implementation, but fear they reasons for which it was implemented and how the"authorities" have gone about it is a sorry reflection on lack of industry input.

I think it would be lovely to believe that this was the end we are going to hear about it all, but I see in two years time a lobbist from ASL pushing the government to make it compulsry for every new SPL applicant to sit a Drug Multi Choice Exam, with a 80% pass rate and nominal user pay (rape) recouperation. :yuk:

[HarleyD]

I see that once again the “if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear” brigade are out and singing their song with all the self righteous pomposity that they can muster.

I for one cannot see the sense in this entire issue. Has there been some massive increase to accidents and/or incidents that are attributable to impairment by drugs and alcohol? If there has been then I would very much like to see the statistics that this so-called ‘safety’ program was based on.

It is an empire building exercise started by the holier than thou that will cost the industry millions annually and provide little or no benefit to the fare paying public, who are the prime responsibility of the CASA.

It will result in prosecutions for minor infractions and humiliation for those who test positive for drugs at “ramp check” types of swabbing but then show acceptable levels of prescription or over the counter medications. It will result in more sick days due to some of the above mentioned instances and breed ill feeling and a sense of injustice, and why, so that a new entire section of the CASA can be formed and grown AT YOUR EXPENSE.

We need this like a hole in the head. It will be another tedious, time consuming expensive and totally pointless exercise that consumes effort and time in an industry already doing its best with limited resources. If they wanted to include a breath test along with a ramp check I can see some sense in it, but this is bullsh!t and you guys are taking it right up the clacker on the basis that it proves that you are one of those who would never be so naughty as to have a few beers with the boys.

Show me the real cold hard FACTS that this entire snow job is based on and I might be convinced, but I am sick of being told to bend over and grab you ankles because this is good for us all, just like regional airport security this is a make work exercise based on motherhood statements and little else.

I dread to think of what those useless oxygen bandits will think up nest in order to ‘protect’ us all, but rest assured, there WILL be something else in 12 to 18 months and I hope that next time some one stands up against it, or most of an AOC or COA holders money will be running more and more safety and security programs, for our own good, of course.

WOW , big rant for a Wednesday morning.

HD

[TurboOtter]

Did anyone get the calender thingy? not only is March missing. (maybe it doesn't exsist for Casa) but I recieved two envelopes on the same day:\

I haven't read it through yet, it's filed next to the desk :} any other items reflecting the possibility of our regulator on the funny stuff?:p

[HarleyD]

Is CASA trying to dumb down the industry by restricting alcohol consumption?

Cliff's Buffalo Theory

This is credited to an episode of Cheers in which Cliff explains to Norm the 'Buffalo Theory':
"Well you see, Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as
the slowest buffalo and when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive drinking of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."


I know some Ag (and Airline) pilots who have operated on this principle for years, and come to think of it more than a few Military pilots, though they have been getting tamer and tamer of recent years. This may well be due to a cultural shift due to behavior modification by education, rather than the baseball bat that CASA is taking to the system.

Sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander, every CASA employee in ANY office (or dungeon) in their ivory towers should be eligible for routine and random D&A testing because the ALL work in safety related jobs by virtue of their employer being the safety regulator, if not , sack em and test all those that are left, their jobs must all be safety related.[

HD

[Aerodynamisist]

Just noticed in the junk mail from casa on drug testing that aviation security (including screening) are also subject to the same rules. I would appreciate it very much if casa would drug test a few of these goons.

[Towering Q]

In a former life as a Mill Relining company pilot, we were subjected to the same drug and alcohol testing as the workers. (The pilots were expected to assist the reline team on site at the mine plant.)

On the trip out to the minesite the pilots were strategically placed towards the rear of the troopy, next to the back door, so they would be selected by the security staff at the gate for the drug screening.

Eventually, after consistant negative results, some of the security staff caught on and poked their heads in a little further and said , "OK, you with the dreadlocks up the front there, come with me!" :ooh:

.

[sms777]

I get your message.......
I am off to get a haircut tomorrow ;) :E

[ZappBrannigan]

"The limit for you is less than 0.02"

Couldn't agree more with this point kingRB. I think the big posters being put up everywhere are completely misleading. The posters, at a glace - which is all 90% of people will give them - lead one to believe that a quick pot of beer before a flight is ok if it doesn't put you above 0.02. A quicker glance actually omits the words "less than", as they're in small font compared to the other jumbo letters.

I don't know why they're tiptoeing around with mountains of tiny details - people understand a big fat ZERO TOLERANCE message/poster - why all the fluff?

These points are of course discounting the fact that if you don't know you shouldn't be flying with a positive BAC, then you shouldn't be flying at all.

Oh and yes, I can confirm 101% that police get quite frequently randomly tested - urine-sampled far more frequently than breath-tested, but both occur. You can generally expect to be hit around twice a year.

[coke drinker]

Now let's get a couple of things straight. I hold a class 1 medical. I do not drink alcohol at all. Listerine can put me over! How is that a fair process given that CASA will launch into a medical clearance requirement to prove you're not an alcoholic?!?

Lets look at another thing, I have at times back problems which do not affect my ability to fly. My DAME is certain of that. I am prescribed Voltaren to help with the pain when required. I have no idea what is in that, but am I going to be without work for a week because CASA will assume I'm a druggo for utilising a prescription drug?

This is such a poorly thought out and implemented scheme that I'm amazed it has gained this much traction and was actually approved. Who are these idiotic paper pushers? I'm trying to plan a meeting with my local member with regard CASA and this useless paperwork is part of it, as well as the stupid wrong plastic calendar tent thing. You want a fight CASA? You're going to get it from the whole industry.

[ravan]

Have a look at the list of over-the-counter medications that will give a positive test for codeine and tell me if you will simply call in sick if you wake up with a mild sore throat or risk taking a couple of "Chemist's Own" Cold Flu tablets.

[ausindo]

Hey guys,

Just a side subject, did anyone have a look at their nifty lil calender they sent in the mail in regards to this?

Did anyone see March missing in 2010? I have heard of a leap second, or a leap year, not too sure about a leap month? Good bye March

Ausindo

[Capt Claret]

coke drinker,

This assumes for the sake of argument that Voltaren (wonderful drug by the way!) would give a positive result for a banned family of substances.

As I understand it, you'll not be presumed to be a druggo if your Voltaren tests positive. Once the positive test comes back, you'll be stood down while the boffins further test the sample, determining that it wasn't a banned substance, even though in the first instance a positive test result occurred.

[Freewheel]

Capt,

The requirement to be stood down is in effect a presumption of guilt until proven otherwise.

I think this is the beef most have with the plan.

[B767MAD]

Freewheel - from being stood down , a negative result and back at work , how long will the mud stick?.
(" So and so returned a positive result") We should hope that our friends,colleagues and managers understand the system and you're career isn't ruined from gaining relief from a headcold.


Ravan - entitlements will fast run out as most we have approx 10 days sick leave however how long will a course of sudafed stay in you after you've stopped taking it?! I'll be enjoying a few more days off this winter (unless I skip the cold season!) sighting DAMP as the reason.
:uhoh:

I've been led to believe Sudafed PE containing Phenylephrine is ok. The main concern is pseudoephedrine. Out of interest , does PE work for anyone? (it doesn't for me).

[rmm]

Does anyone know what the story is with officially prescribed restricted medications? Have allowances been made?

e.g, A person suffers from the adult version of ADHD and is prescribed dexamphetamine from a specialist. The condition has been well controlled with this medication for many years. Where would this person stand?

The same situation could be said about people with mild epilepsy who take benzodiazepines to control it.

[HarleyD]

Codeine is persistant and detectable in small quantities that are above the CASA proscribed limit. Say you have tooh ache on the weekend, dose up on panadeine, get tooth fixed Monday and go to work the next day, turn up and get tested, uh-oh positive result, over the limit (when test returns after indeterminate time at lab).

Testing is to evideniary standards so now you can be convicted on this legal 'evidence' of your drug taking.

Another scenario, you are at work have tooth ache, chew a panadiene tablet, but before you can rinse your mouth CASA man shoves a swap in your mouth (you cannot refuse or leave the site of the testing), you say that you just had a tab in your mouth and would like to rinse mouth, or wait 15 minutes and have a second test (same as for alcohol test) but CASA not obliged to do that, they can hang you out to dry from this single sample which is in no way representative of the real event. Yes, it is unlikely, but it is possible and sooner or later WILL happen.

I would also like to see the cost benefit analysis that shows that the tens of millions of dollars that this will cost each year will provide any form of safety benefit. these costs will go from now till forever so get used to it. they may be shared between industry and regulator at the moment, but I for one do not expect anything but full cost recovery in the near future.

yes, I am protesting a lot, but just the same as I do not tolerate pilots who would even think of coming to work with PBA over the limit, or after taking any type of drugs that can affect their performance, I have little tolerance for stupid, worthless, pointless time and money eating nonsense like this that is an empire building exercise in an attempt to fool the general public that CASA is actually making aviation safer! it is the whole security/ASIC thing over again. Useless and pointless.

Bring back the old 'Crash Comic' that would be a damn side more effective as a safety program than this load of dog's vomit.

HD

[ZappBrannigan]

Harley and others - I've been through this type of testing dozens and dozens of times, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'll be infinitely surprised if they actually attempt to pull anyone offline immediately after testing, for anything such as false positives for amphets/cocaine etc. The normal procedure is to give you a quick interview about ANY drugs or medication you've taken in recent history, before the testing - and this is recorded. There's generally an A and B urine sample, in urine testing, properly taken and sealed with tamper-proof seals - they'll eliminate any of the medication you've quoted before any action is taken. And yes, everything can be eliminated - the only problem with false positives are during on-the-spot testing, not with more accurate laboratory testing methods.

If you've tested positive and all the false positives have been eliminated, they'll notify you, and open and test the B sample in your presence.

There are FAR too many legal ramifications, especially in this day and age, for pulling someone offline, potentially affecting them financially and perhaps permanently damaging their employment, due to a false positive on an inaccurate on-the-spot testing method. If CASA are planning to do this, then they'll be getting some rude shocks.

To reiterate a main point - there is NO WAY you will be convicted of any offence, or anything to that extreme, from a false positive. Yes, certain medication can give a false positive - but this is ALWAYS distinguishable at the correct level of testing. Nobody will be losing their jobs after taking Codral (I've tested positive for amphets after taking that, around 2 years ago).

[Biggles_in_Oz]

I'll be infinitely surprised if they actually attempt to pull anyone offline immediately after testing, for anything such as false positives for amphets/cocaine etc. The normal procedure is to give you a quick interview about ANY drugs or medication you've taken in recent history, before the testing - and this is recorded. Riiiiiiiiightt.. that's not quote how I'd interpret what's in CASA | Alcohol and other drug use in aviation - How does it affect you? - Organisations (http://fed-cache.funnelback.com/search/cache.cgi?collection=fed-gov&doc=http%2Faod.casa.gov.au%2Faod%2Fwhat_i_should_know%2Forga nisations.html) (the direct CASA link seems broken)
Page 16 says • must cease performing, or being available to perform, a SSAA if they:
• return a positive result for a drug or alcohol test


Look at it from an employers point of view.,,, someone tests positive (it doesn't matter if it's a false positive), therefore they can't fly or perform their duties, therefore a replacement must be found.
At best this will a nuisance (ie Fred ain't doing anything tomorrow, so he can do this charter), and at worst a real financial problem. (I can't get anybody to this location at short notice, so I've lost this and the next n charters, therefore I've got to cut costs and sack Joe)

Whilst I believe that the intent is noble., the implementation is very legalistic and draconian.
What is written in 'black and white' is what CASA will use to make our lives miserable.
Don't forget that you are dealing with a bureaucracy that has absolutely nothing to lose in wasting your time, money and patience.

[Spotlight]

The whole idea is wrong!

However.

My Company, as part of their DAMP, has a person to contact.

Ops.... "we need you to fly"

Me.... "That should be okay, I just need to talk to our contact person and then I will get back to you".

Me.... "Hi contact person. The company have called me to fly, but I have a problem, you see I had a tickly throat last Thursday and took a Panadeine"

Contact person........."Not a problem b....sht....bst....bsht.

Me...."Thats fine, I understand that. Fax or email me that I am 100% clear to fly.:ugh:

[Capt Claret]

Zap, no urine testing, only swabs and breath testing.

[ZappBrannigan]

Biggles/Capt Claret, ok acknowledged - well I'd say CASA have some troubles coming to them then. This is not how you effectively drug test and subsequently treat people. We know how word gets around in aviation - the act of pulling someone offline for a positive test is enough to create potential employment problems for you in the future.

Apologies, every place I worked in that was regularly drug tested actually did it properly, where there were no loose ends and no potential for loss through a false positive. Time will tell.

[Capt Claret]

Zapp, where I think it has the potential to really strike fear into Ops rooms around the country, is where several aircraft crews from the one company are targeted for screening, and several individual crews initiallty test positive. Think of the reserve coverage needed!

[compressor stall]

Exactly CC,

Additionally it does not just cover flight crews - it's the cabin crew (and others) as well....

[ZappBrannigan]

Yep, agreed. It'd be interesting to test the legal waters for recovery of lost revenue through consumption of perfectly legal (and more to the point, acceptable in aviation) medication or substances.

And think of the tarnished company name when words gets around that "those two charters didn't go ahead yesterday cause 3 out of the 4 crew tested positive for banned substances". Just like a rape charge - the allegation is often as bad as the conviction. 3 out of 4 is an extreme example - but quite possible.

[HarleyD]

CASA will be tragetting certain areas of operation (they have said, according to our DAMP REP) and this may mean that some persons will be REGULARLY randomly tested and perhaps this will be several times every year. This is definately a form of 'profiling' and not exactly random.

They have also stated that they intend to conduct 6000 tests a year with these tests being conducted by afficial CASA persons, but that there will be NO QUOTAS.....Run that by me again, that IS a quota I would say.

So if you are on a preferred testing, profiled list and your regional tester is getting to the end of his test cycle returns....watch out..random testing may not be so random.

Zap, A single mouth swab will be taken and tested to EVIDENTIARY standards, so don't tell me they do not intend to exercise the capacity to prosecute.


I am already subject to ramdom AOD testing and have been for several years and I know that this whole DAMP thing could (and should) be done in a fair, reasonable, prudent and discretionary manner using common sense and good judgement, I just find it hard to believe that that is in fact how it will turn out. I will be happy to be proven wrong.

HD

[ZappBrannigan]

Zap, A single mouth swab will be taken and tested to EVIDENTIARY standards, so don't tell me they do not intend to exercise the capacity to prosecute.

My whole point is if it's tested to evidentiary standards, then nobody should worry for a second about false positives leading to criminal convictions. It seems people are worried they'll be prosecuted after a false positive reading. The whole purpose of testing to this level is false positives are ruled out. It won't hold up in court - and if they try, they'll have the legal battle of a lifetime on their hands.

I completely concede, however, that this is little consolation when you're pulled offline for any further testing to be completed.

[Arnold E]

Our company (maintenance) has recently been drug and booze tested, that is all of us, and it was not a drama. Only took a short time and all tests were clear, and that was the end of it. No problem!:ok:

[Counter-rotation]

Zapp, false positives cause me to be stood down WITHOUT PAY.

That pisses me off.

I don't know the details, but you say that you've dealt with this in other industries, and describe your exposure to it as fair and reasonable, yes? Sadly you can NEVER expect either of those adjectives to apply, when talking about CASA and their actions :yuk: (my favourite emoticon for CASA)

HarleyD sums it up, and does it quite well, back about 12 posts ago. And CASA do it themselves with that idiot calender crap (again, and again, and again, and...)

Sod off CASA - idiots :yuk: Go and rewrite some documents or something :D Love your work...

CR.

[xxgoldxx]

said it before.. say it again..

If I am in uniform heading to the aircraft then bring it on.. no excuses..

If however ...

I get home after 12 hours duty.. cant legally fly anyway... not to mention that the A/C has been taken by the next crew and is now 200 miles away..

no other company (or other) aircraft on the tarmac..
I have 2 beers at the local and duck back to get the mail, get tested POSITIVE.. not false.. just guilty..

Under the pile of current CASA regs I can not legally be in command of an aircraft anyway..

will I get off ..?? I doubt it .. is this enhancing safety.. I doubt it..

the next guy that gets booked DUI for walking down Bourke Street please let us know how the defense goes... its about the same...

am I allowed to have a drink in my own home.. ??
I could be doing ammendments to the ops manual at .05 after all...!!

[compressor stall]

xxgoldxx

I've said it before.. say it again..


If I am in uniform heading to the aircraft then bring it on.. no excuses..


Look at my post 13 on page 1 of this thread.

XXgoldxx, You are on a flight for your organisation on the other side of the country.

You have been prescribed antibiotics by a doc and cleared to fly by a DAME. Those antibiotics are known to cause a false positive for cocaine.

You have informed your DAMP contact that you are taking the medication.

Do you accept the flight? Can your company (or you) afford to have you stood down immediately as you are preparing to fly on the other side of the country with VIP pax due at the aircraft in 30 mins?

You will be stood down for a couple of days at best, whilst the testers ring the CASA doc, who rings you and you state your case. The CASA doc, then rings your doc to find out that you have been prescribed the medication, then rings you back to say that you can fly.

This will not happen in 20 minutes!

The first CASA seminar I went to on this, I quizzed the CASA doc on this process. He conceded that the process could take UP TO 2 WEEKS.

Can you or your company afford this xxgoldxx?


The sensible solution is that your company damp contact is able to be contacted by the drug tester after your random test. The test is correlated with your declaration and you're good to go.

[Capt Claret]

Stallie,

I'm stunned at your naivety. :p

Fancy trying to suggest a common sense approach with a bureaucracy!

The sensible solution is that your company damp contact is able to be contacted by the drug tester after your random test. The test is correlated with your declaration and you're good to go.

[ithinkso]

Alcohol testing, great, bring it on. Alcohol degrades performance and should be 0.0, not 0.2.

Drug testing, wow, this is crazy. I can go to the chemist, I can purchase a codral cold and flu tablet. I WILL return a positive reading. I will then be stood down from my duties as captain. It cannot be explained away as far as telling the bad man that you just took a flu-tab. You WILL be stood down from duty for AT LEAST 24 hours while the lab confirms the result.

Quandry: THE DRUG I TESTED POSITIVE FOR, INCREASED THE SAFETY OF THE OPERATION, BY PROVIDING SYMPTOMATIC RELIEF... IT IS A LEGAL OVER THE COUNTER DRUG.

This is an example of the inadequacy of CASA testing. Because they cant test for individual illicit substances, they group the entire lot.

Situation: Foreign crew overnight in aust, one guy takes a codral flu-tab. Screened next day and returns positive swab. Crew member stood down for at least 24 hours. The aircraft then required to remain until crew member declared, "not a drug user". Not all foreign operators have standby crews in Aust. When queried on the ramifications CASA said they would accept NO responsibility for any financial losses incurred by the company. Even though the substance was legal and not present in harmful level.

The CASA man then explained they take the same hard line approach as the police. If on a roadside alcohol and drug test you return a positive reading your licence is removed--instantly, total and complete rubbish. Has anyone lost their driver's licence for taking a flu-tab... I dont think so!

Get real CASA, you have really made total asses of yourselves, once again due to a total lack of understanding of the industry! Somebody sack these idiots!!!

[A Comfy Chair]

Ithinkso,

I agree with your sentiments about 0.0 alcohol, but when I asked about it a few years ago (in a different context) I was told that the tests can read upto 0.02 even if you have never consumed alcohol in your life, just through the respiration process, which is why 0.02 is chosen... it is effectively 0.0.

With the drug tests, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.

I'm sure if the airlines keep getting screwed over with crew not being able to operate due to false positives the system will change quite quickly.

[ernie blackhander]

"Alcohol testing, great, bring it on. Alcohol degrades performance and should be 0.0, not 0.2."

i know you missed a zero but if the limit was .2 none of us would be able to preform our jobs because we would probably have trouble standing

[whiskey1]

The organisation I work for has included ALL employees in their DAMP policy not just those working Airside in SSAA's. Wonder how drug and Alcohol testing improves safety of the accountants, reception staff etc.
Wonder if it is legal?

[Wunwing]

ithnkso

Your example doesn't work since foreign AOC holder employees are not covered by DAMP.

whiskey.
The problem with exempting employee categories is that once they are exempt they are restricted in where they can go due to the definition of SSAA including the bracketed statement of "by their presence". I take that to mean that if you are in a SSAA for any purpose ie letting someone know that there is a phone call, that they are deemed to be testable.

Wunwing

[lostwingnut]

Well, bring on winter.

Here is a mission for anyone.

Picture a good old winter in in Canberra or Melbourne. Go visit your local CASA office, and count the number of people you see walking around with a head cold. You can be certain that a good half of them will be on something (Codral etc).

Report it!

The number of positive test results with automatic stand downs will be enough to shut CASA down for at least how ever long it will take to prove all those test results are standard over the counter mediation?

Good times!

[ampclamp]

well the fine folks from our regulator will be in their offices.They must be cos they have not been out there finding LAME's with dodgy quals.
no doubt you have now read about the wonderful calendar warning and educationg us about the new testing regime and that the 2010 calendar comes complete with 11 months and other errors, ie no March 2010, 2 thursdays in a row in another place...Its nice bit of kit.:eek:

The fact testing can produce a positive for a legal drug that wont necessarily effect safety is a worry.Nobody wants anyone driving or fixing A/C half stung on anything but I can see it may cause problems.

[Mr. Hat]

If you have a head ache the night before a flight and take a panadiene to dull the pain and rock up to work the next morning and get tested I think you could find yourself in trouble.

Stood down at minus 60 minutes to push back? I don't know about your company but mine doesn't happen to have a couple of pilots just hanging around just in case.

So basically you are going to be the reason for a MAJOR delay. There is no doubt the rumourmill will be hard at work and before you know it "Mr. Hat's a junkie."

I don't have any reason to be concerned as I don't use illegal drugs or drink to excess. But I am concerned that when I'm feeling unwell I'm now not able to take an over the counter medication the night before.

Anyone that is in the process of convincing themselves that its going to be all okay may want to have a hard think about it. My question is - what happens to your medical? Could you be setting yourself up for increased surveillance?

[Time Bomb Ted]

Here's a hint. DON'T TAKE PANADENE.... Take a panadol or an Act 3 or something else that will do the job. That way you won't get caught! Pretty simple really. If you HAVE to take something to fly, take the list of prohibited drugs to your pharmacist and ask for something that doesn't have the prohibited stuff in it. You know that the Pharmacist has a big book with everything that is in the concoction that they are about to give you, so ask them to check it.

Why is this all so difficult?

Get a grip people. Some of you need to open a can of "Harden the blank up!

TBT

[coke drinker]

Time bomb, you are missing the point. CASA are effectively playing doctor. And just sometimes Panadol isn't enough! I think you might need to open your eyes to reality rather than tell us to harden the f&%^ up.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

TBT, why the eff is it my problem ????
Why the eff should I now have to change the legal and non-prescription medications that I use to alieviate temporary ailments and which might cause me to return a positive drug-test result.
(dunno about you, but paracetamol for (head)aches takes a long time to get me functional.)

If I have a significant and ongoing medical condition that requires non-trivial medication, then that should get picked up by the DAME at the recurring medicals and CASA will get that data.

CASA has knee-jerked and over-reacted to a perceived problem., but they do need to justify their existance I suppose :(

[Dog One]

Will these random tests be done at sign on, or can they be done at an intermediate port. What authorisation do the testers hold to come on board the aircraft to do tests?

One outcome of this will be that crews wont risk a positive test, but will call in sick.

[Wunwing]

ampclamp
Your example is a dud as well because CASA staff are also exempt.
Wunwing

[tmpffisch]

Where would one find the list of prohibited drugs?

[rmm]

From the casa web site,

CASA will be testing for the presence of alcohol, opiates, cannabis, amphetamine-type stimulants, and cocaine. In the Regulations, these drugs are referred to by their specific chemical names:

* Morphine
* Codeine
* 6-Acetyl morphine
* Amphetamine
* Methyl amphetamine
* Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine
* Methylenedioxyamphetamine
* Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol
* Cocaine
* Benzoylecgonine
* Ecgonine methyl ester

CASA will not be testing for the presence of other drugs, including anti-depressants/anti-anxiety medications, HIV/AIDS or HepC medications, anti-hypertensives, or sildenafil.

[Time Bomb Ted]

This type of testing has been happening in a number of other industries such as Mining for a long time. Why should our industry be any different? I'm all for the testing. Sooner the better in some cases.

If you need to take strong pain relievers to be able to operate an aircraft, then possibly you may need to think about whether you should be there in the first place. I think nabbing a baggage handler who has had some strong pain relief because they have a sore back is a bit harsh I must admit.

I assume those who believe CASA are exempt from the random testing haven't read Part 99. If a Flying Ops Inspector or Airworthiness Inspector are in a safety sensitive area, then they are liable to be tested. The random testers will have the delegations to enter any building or cockpit in the same way as any flying ops inspector has. It's all in Part 99 for all to see.

Now Coke Drinker I do have my eyes open. I once had my CP give one of our pilot's a packet of Tic Tac's to get the smell of alcohol off his breath before a 5 hour charter flight. I know the reality of drug and alcohol use in aviation.

What I can't wait for is the first "Positive" test. How CASA handles that one will be very interesting.

[Mr. Hat]

Nothing to do with taking drugs to operate an aircraft. Everything to do with taking a perfectly legal and readily available OTC drug at home 24-48 hrs before work.

Basically with the testing you are now on duty at home as well.

Here's a hint either you take nothing and if you don't feel well call in sick. Or if you take something but feel okay - you guessed it - call in sick.

Thats going to be the outcome.

Can you imagine if you get tested at an outport and it comes up positive? Not only are there no crew just hanging around at work but there are no crew available at all. The flight gets cancelled and so does your job.

I love the mining comparisons. Slight problem though - the mine doesn't magically fly to destinations where no other employees are avalable to take over and a mine doesn't have 400 people waiting to depart with some having connecting flights.

[Time Bomb Ted]

Fair point about the mining Mr Hat. Still I'm sure there is a similar programme in place for maritime operations isn't there? I could be wrong, but can't they test the ferry captains on Sydney Harbour? Same outcome.

The legal headache drugs are a toughy indeed. Should be interesting how it all pans out.

Good luck everyone. We may need it.

TBT

[Mr. Hat]

I'm all for the illicit and alcohol related stuff. Fine, by me no problem at all but I can tell you I will be calling in sick rather than running the risk of having a test done at an outport and getting done over a cold tablet. Casa win, the company and my sick leave lose. (GP wins to- medical cerificate required so thats another 50 bucks gone).

[ampclamp]

My response was to another post.Dont see anything in my post suggesting casa were or were not exempt.Anyway...
The incompetence of casa was the point of my post where there have been half or non qualified people signing as LAME's for quite some time. With virtually zero (that I'm aware of ) active casa surveillance and Qantas' incompetence also as the "outsourced" regulator I dont have a huge amount of confidence in the testing regime.How could we?

The useless calendar is only half serious but real example of resources wasted on spin not spent on substance.Qantas will also have their own testing.Bewdy cant wait for that scheme.:oh:

Dont get me wrong I dont want p!ssed or stoned people around or on aircaft.But I do want a fair, reasonable, open, reliable system where positves wont be given by non proscribed drugs. Recourse is quick, no loss of income for false positives, private & non judgemental & non stigmatising help if you do have a problem..

I know someone who goes loopy with paracetamol,legal but dangerous.
If tested he'd pass if he wasnt running down an aisle flapping his arms like wings.
Some folks are not affected by pseudo eph. I am sensitive to it and hate the stuff. Get really twitchy cant sleep or keep still.

I do hope all turns out well and our concerns are unfounded but I can well understand where these people concerns lie.

[HarleyD]

Time Bomb Ted, good on ya, so now CASA and YOU are telling me what I can and can't take for a headache, for fcuks sake grow up!

I don't rush off for a panadeine every time I have a headache, mostly a good drink of water is a big help, but not everybody's system works the same, only you and CASA could come up with such simplistic drivel. I should be able to take the most efficacious LEGAL, over the counter medications for flu, cold, headache, toothache, in LEGAL dosages without doo-gooders like the Air Nazis and yourself saying pious little snippets like "if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" and "just take an aspirin, or better yet just think of a happy place" next time I have migraine, usually caused by having to deal with some simple minded jobsworth like yourself.

Toughen up your self and take a good hard look at this can of worms we have been handed.

We will have to deal with it an a regular basis, and it's already costing my company time, effort and money to address an issue that has never been in "issue" so far. All when we are trying to stretch every dollar for REAL safety issues.

Me and so many others are NOT supporting the notion that it's rafferty's rules regarding AOD, or that a few beers at lunchtime is OK. BUT, if we are going to have a DAMPS program (is that like a PIN number?) that works it will have to be a lot better than this, and if you place your faith CASA to do the right thing, god help the industry.

HD

[Time Bomb Ted]

Harley, I'll grow up. But only because you told me I had to....

TBT

[compressor stall]

The solution is that you can register with your damp - or another approved third party (not CASA) - the fact that you are on a prescription or other medication.

If you are then ramp checked and if you show positive, then the tester calls the organisation at your request to cross check and you can go back to work.

The sample is still further tested in the lab and if it is found to be not, say whooping cough prophylactic antibiotics (clarithcamyacin) and it's really cocaine then the full weight of the law comes down on you.

Let's stop the name calling to each other and demand a solution.

[runway16]

CASA is reported to have commenced D & A testing at Moorabbin this week.

R16

[Pappa Smurf]

Having failed a drug test once i dont know what all the fuss is about.
A group of us were given the test and 5 failed.
3 of us for smoking the happy weed and the other 2 for opiates.
I laughed like hell cause i dont smoke the stuff ,so we were all sent home on full pay until lab results came back from Perth.If the results were positive then you didnt get paid and couldnt go back to work until tested clear.

Myself and another had clear results--the machine had thrown a wobbly.
One proved positive and was given the door as it was his 3rd offence.

Of the opiate crew ,one was on medication and the other had had a poppy seed roll.It was then the discretion of the company if they could go back to work before the lab results came back.

In those days we had a 3 strike clause but now its 2.If they have cause to think you look a bit odd--booze or drugs ,or have an accident and test positive it 2 clauses at once and your out.

They ask before what medication your on.

Same with coming to work pissed.Its zero tollerance but as certain things contain alcohol they allow that up to .02 ,and if on .03 get tested an hour later,or less.


I dont know how the swab tests work,but ive heard if ya been on the hooch in the last 14 hours it shows up.The piss test shows up from days to weeks later.

[Capt Claret]

One can easily envisage the news paper headlines on the next day, say the NT News for example.



Drugie Pilot Causes Chaos!

Capt Bloggs yesterday caused chaos as he upset the travel plans of thousands of passengers when he tested positive for a banned substance, in a random test conducted on behalf of the CASA.

CASA spokesman Ima Wanka, said that CASA was determined to ensure the safety of the travelling public by weeding out aviators who took drugs.

An Airline spokesman said they were doing their best to clear the backlog and regretted any inconvenience to passengers travel plans.




Now the questions that arise are:

Once vilified for being a drug addict, will Capt Bloggs' apology be given the same notoriety? Will the travelling public even find the ensuing apology?

Mud sticks, and this system will I fear, tar one as guilty before being proven innocent, regardless of whether one has "anything to worry about, or not", perhaps and hopefully not in the eyes of our employers but almost certainly with the travelling public.

[Mr. Hat]

Capt Claret, a good lawyer/barrister will rub his /her hands together on this stuff. CASA/Company/screeners would have to be oh so careful. I'd start the test by taking a few notes (time, date, id badge number and name) and then i'd pop straight down to the doctor to get a blood test.

Its actually got me thinking that I should find out where is the quickest place to get a blood test in each port. I know there is a doctor n site in MEL but it could get difficult at some outports. Call me paranoid but let me tell you if one does come back positive and you can't fly you might find your heart rate increase a little.

What i can't work out is how they reckon this is not going to cause a delay.

[Capt Claret]

Agreed Mr Hat.

A few years ago, when Victoria first introduced random drug testing for road drivers, the first guy pinged had his mug shown on National TV news around the country. There was nowhere near as much publicity when the test proved to be a false positive. :zzz:

[tmpffisch]

Capt Claret, if my memory serves me correctly, he sued for compensation ($250,000, the maximum available).

I can't find any stories online stating if the police settled out of court, but all the articles suggested they would.

[Lasiorhinus]

It seems that the biggest headache with all of this, is that codeine is on the banned substances list.

Why?

Yes, I am aware that codeine can be extracted from opium - but it is not opium, it is codeine.

What are the adverse reactions people experience when taking codeine? Hrmm, reduced headaches, (which is good for flying), reduced diarrohea (also good in an aircraft), reduced sexual drive (good while actually flying), and a few other poor options such as potentially vomiting, or getting a skin rash.

How is this drug negatively affecting the safety of air navigation??

Get codeine off the list, and you'll remove almost every concern people have about legitimate medication on this abomination of an initiative.



As an employee, I highly recommend contacting your employer each and every time you need to take a codeine tablet, and getting them to state, in writing, that they agree to you taking codeine, and that you will in no way be at risk of losing your job, or being stood down with no pay, if you are tested and found to be taking codeine - or that they agree that you shall have the next 48 hours off work, also with no risk of losing your job or suffering financial penalty.

[Mr. Hat]

I'd go for the 48 hr option. The employer might be happy for you to fly but at the end of the day its a federal government body that isn't and in that case i wouldn't be taking any chances at all. Its like messing with a bigger version of the Tax department. No thanks.

[Lasiorhinus]

I didnt say to keep flying... I said that if you tested positive and had to be removed from all SSAAs, that you wouldnt lose your job, or be stood down without pay.

Being stood down with pay, on the other hand, is fine, and has the same result for the employer as letting you take 48 hours CodralLeave with pay - except there is no actual guarantee that you WILL be tested and required to go home for a couple of days while they find out you were OK after all.

[Mr. Hat]

Yep understood. Currenlty in most companies there are too many pilots so its not a good idea to give anyone a reason against you.

My personal approach will be a total ban on all OTC medications within 48 hrs. Harsh yes but I'm comfortable with it.

[Lasiorhinus]

I see your point, but what will you do if, on a day off, you have a splitting headache and runny nose, aches in your muscles, and you're pretty sure its the early stages of the flu?

[inandout]

Yes CODEINE should be OFF the LIST, it's the usual idiots at casa :mad: flying up even more.For christ sake STOP trying to change things so you can justify your :mad: job casa.

[ampclamp]

If drugs such as codeine are now on the hit list there is imho a good case for hitting companies up for more sick leave. Ailments that would could normally be treated with such drugs now cannot be treated so your recovery time maybe extended in the name of safety.:cool:

Maybe the industry can hit CASA with the bill?:hmm:
If they are as concerned as they make out and drugs are a big problem they should take it up and compensate the industry for any such problems.

[beaver_rotate]

Is it true that we are going through all of this crap now because of the Hamilton Island Cherokee 6 crash? Or do you think its industry 'worldwide'. Apparently Nurofen Plus tests positive for cocaine. I ain't giving that up, so jam it I say!

[Mr. Hat]

Lasiorhinus, unfortunately I'm just going to have to go back to the old lemon and honey hot drink method. Its bloody painful i know but I'm not going to risk it unless there is a significant change in policy re OTC stuff. So basically I'll have to call in sick.

The thing is, it means not only panedeine but also other medications, the nurofens the codrals or even better the ones for allergy season. I can't imagine how some of the long haul guys will go with no sleeping tablets.

Along with high viz vests, asic cards, security sceening, no flight service, TIBA, all introduced in the last few years it goes along way to keep some people in jobs, others not and our lives harder without one inch of difference to safety.

Each and every minute that passes is another minute where soemone somewhere has the opportunity to make things harder and less practical. And its also another minute for a bea counter to work out how to decrease another condition and save a penny.

My way of dealing with it is to do what they want, nod and smile and know they work in a job they hate and i don't.:)

[andrewr]

A link to a story about the Victorian driver false positive:
John De Jong paid out for drug-drive fiasco | News.com.au Top stories | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23444508-2,00.html)

False positives are the real problem. Searches for information about drug test false positives suggest that they may be caused by many different things, most of which you would have no idea about beforehand. As far as actual over the counter drugs go, it seems like almost all nasal decongestants (including inhalers) might cause false positives for amphetamines. As people have noted, codeine and poppy seeds can cause false positives for opiates. It is also likely that false positives can occur without any obvious cause at all.

I would be very interested to see the actual false positive rates for the test - presumably the manufacturer documents it. From what I can find, 5% may be conservative - so if they are aiming to conduct 6000 tests, 300 pilots may be unnecessarily stood down. I would certainly expect the false positive count to be much higher then the true positive count.

[Lasiorhinus]

False positives are one issue, and actual, correct positives for codeine is a seperate and equally dangerous problem.

If you take codeine, you will test positive to codeine, and this will eventually be confirmed as accurate. But why is codeine being tested?? Sure, test for dangerous drugs, mind-altering substances etc, but codeine??

[xxgoldxx]

yep its b*llsh*t..

same as testing in any aviation area.. Im .03/.04 can still drive a car etc but after doing 12 hours duty so cant fly anyway.. and with no keys.. or after last light, I am still banned from checking the tie downs on my day VFR private aircraft .... WTF..!!!

I'm sitting at home having a beer and thinking about doing my jepp ammendments but the thought of CASA knocking on my door is too scary.. will have to secure myself in the local library tomorrow for such a safety sensitive activity...

on second thoughts.. ammendments might have to wait.. if I have a hangover on my day off and need a panadol.. cant risk it really...

[Kelly Slater]

I doubt very much that these tests are testing for Codeine. They are simply not capable of distinguishing Codeine from other Opium derivatives. If they were capable of that, they would be capable of not returning false positives for any drug. Accurate test equipment is expensive and requires more knowledge and skill on the part of the tester. The more accurate the test, the higher the cost. It is far more desirable to ruin the life of a pilot or two than to provide accurate testing carried out by appropriately trained and qualified people. I don't expect to see an Australian professional pilot return a true positive test this year or the next. Perhaps when they water down CAO 48 enough, we will all need something to stay awake but until then we are what we say we are, professionals.

[compressor stall]

I doubt very much that these tests are testing for Codeine.

A quick check of part 99 in the CASRs reveals that they do indeed test for codeine.

25 ng/mL is the permitted limit.

[Kelly Slater]

I stand corrected. However, if there is an allowable level of a substance, then the test must be able to determine that level to be a useful test and pilots must be given guidance as to what will lead to exceeding that level. Blood alcohol tests give a reading that can be translated into a reasonable assumption of impairment. We all know roughly how many drinks will put us at what level and how many hours are required for the alcohol to leave the system. If you tie one on, eight hours won't cover it so we don't get smashed the night before a flight. The screening allows for a BAC of 0.02. How many Panadene Forte can you take in a given time? If the answer can't be given then the answer is none and any over the counter medication becomes unusable because it might contain codeine, pseudo ephedrine or some other formally legal substance. We pilots obviously need unlimited sick leave as enjoyed by ATC. As a sample returning a positive is retested with more sophisticated equipment, the test should be made with the appropriate equipment in the first instance. Once you have tested positive, regardless of the fact that it was a false positive, you have a stigma that will follow you for the rest or your career. The appropriate equipment is available but not the money to use it so we are subject to second rate testing.

[CAR256]

Could this question start appearing on jop applications???

++Have you ever returned a positive result in a drug test? YES/NO.

Happy days :ugh:

[Pinky the pilot]

A most interesting question CAR256. Somehow I think that it may be a good idea to have proper legal advice on these issues.

Any Lawyers on Pprune? And I don't mean of the Bush variety!

[Mr. Hat]

We pilots obviously need unlimited sick leave as enjoyed by ATC

Now we do yes. Will never happen in one million years. Conditions will only continue to go backwards unless a massive boom follows a massive recession. That is the only scenario that I can see the power shifting.

Its very simple, within 48 hours prior to sign on do not take any OTC medication. Approaching sign on (reasonable time of course) if you are still feeling unfit call it off.

This is not a matter to be trifled with. This is your licence and livelihood on the line. One may be seeking reassurances that its "all going to be fine" or that "bloggs got off". But given the right/wrong circumstances I think this has the potential to land people in the line at Centrelink.

Don't expect uniformity either. It'll be another screening point style outfit where in one place you have to get naked and the next you can walk thru with watch asic keys phone.

Could this question start appearing on jop applications???

More to the point will it show up on your CASA medical records?

[beaver_rotate]

Okay this weekend I go out on the town right. Then, like some, I get my drink spiked with oh I dunno, liquid ecstasy.

Monday comes, i'm off to work, I let my DAMP supervisor know what happened, I get punished yeah?

[rodmiller]

Wont be long until we are bent right over.

[NAS1801]

For a loose example, lets say during a functional check, a flight control was damaged through circumstances beyond the contol of those involved. A member of management will make the call that may require you to undertake a drug & alcohol test. Strange. Because I can recall occasions where individuals were subjected to tests and occasions when other individuals were not for similar incidents. Targeting individuals now?

We asume that the person carrying out the test has been trained to use the equipment and that they understand how to inerpret the results? What if they make a mistake? Will they be tested?

Why do I ask this? Because it is highly likely that it will happen. In fact, it already has.

So what about if management make a mistake? Can we require them to take a drug and alcohol test? Who makes the call when they mess up? :ugh: