Is the work really that hard to come by?

[fiveoh]

For those who are training to be pilots, whether it be to fly for fun, be an instructor,fly private jets, fly bush or, crack the big airline gig. I think I speak for many others in my shoes. Is the work really that hard to come by once licensed to do so?

To quote a fellow ppruner (can't remember who). That if one is willing to strap on their backpack and set sail to where ever the work takes you, you will have no problem finding work regardless of whats happening in the world. Is there truth behind that?

My concern as a Canadian is that apart from instructing there are not to many other options to start building hours. I recently looked at what credentials are needed to start flying with Canadas one major regional carrier, and was shocked to see that I would need 4000 hrs PIC or 2000 hrs and a university degree!! This was to start flying dash 8's and rj's. Oh and wait all this experiance to start making 37k /yr!!:ugh:. Surely there has to be a better option!

Not that I am saying that a greenhorn pilot should be making 6 figures right off the bat, but is it naive of me to think that a 300 hr pilot could get a job somewhere flying for a low fare airline flying Dash 8's, instead of having to spend five years of my youth instructing circuit entry, landings, takeoffs, stalls, and to get the blood really flowing.... an insipient spin:ugh:. its not that I wouldn't be good at instructing, and its not that I don't respect instructors, their job is integral in this whole picture. It's just that I think I would find it very boring doing the same routine over and over again.

On a 5 hr layover in Gatwick last august I was shocked to see how young many of the pilots for the low fare airlines were. And for that matter the f/o of my flight to Amsterdam (a-319) was no more than 2-5 years older than me. Come on a 22-25 yr old as the f/o for a 319. In Canada I swear some of the f/o's for a-319's would literally have to check their walker at the gate!!:)

All jokes aside is the job market that much better over the pond? because lets face it, there are two major carriers in Canada and both of which require more or less 2000 hrs PIC to be considered, in Europe there are many many more carriers for pilots to get jobs with am I correct?

It seems that there is simply more oppurtunity in Europe, simply because there are more airlines there.

Do airlines frequently hire the young low hr pilots because we have open, moldable minds to adhere to S.O.P and have no prior experiance to have opionions on how things should be conducted? and lets not forget we can also can be paid much less.

Thanks for the time and answers,

Cheers,

G.H

[benish]

Im not really in a positon to reply to your question, as I begin training myself in a month!

But onto the routine thing, again not fully accurate, but rolling into work everyday to fly to Paris, Barcelona, London, Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt everyday to simply hit a auto pilot button, well thats a routine aint it. Same old same old! Better and more enjoyable and more fun than instructing I suppose, and what we'd kill for to do!

Also, whjy Europe. You live within driving distance of the states. There hundres of airlines there! What about Sothwest? Low cost affiliates of AA and the other big ones?!

[EpsilonVaz]

At the moment, it is VERY tough out there, no matter where on the planet you are. Trust me, you aren't the only one with the "I'll go anywhere" mindset. I have so many friends who have finished training in the past 18 months who are just sitting around unemployed, there is so little out there.

In the UK alone, there are many, many 200hr CPL holders churned out every month with no sniff of a job anywhere in the world, and that includes instructing.

I think the debate on age already has it's own thread here, but just to add, I'm a 21 year old F/O for a UK loco on the A319, my sim partner was 40 (also a new F/O).

benish: As far as I know the US aviation inustry is in a far, far worse state than in Europe (Pilot job-wise), that combined with the fact it's very unusual to find a 200hr FAA CPL holder in the RHS of a Jet/Turboprop Airline pretty much gives him no chance in hell.

To all those who've just finished training, I really wish you the best, I don't envy your situation.

[heli_port]

Just pay for your TR as the previous poster did and walllaaahh :=

[fiveoh]

Are you being sarcastic when you say pay for a TR or is this actually a ledgitimate suggestion to heavy down my cv, and get on with an airline?

[happyjack]

There are a few jobs out there but you have to be prepared to go anywhere. The problem however is you will have to have the relevent type rating AND solid experience on that type. The rating itself is useless.
No-one will type pilots these days and even with many thousands of hours without the right type and exp it is hopeless.
Sorry to say but for the forseeable future it looks even worse for newbees.

[fiveoh]

I hear what you guys are saying but I still come from the opinion that if you fire out a bulk amount of cv's to companies around the world you will get a response. It boils down to a numbers game. If you send out 60 cv's the odds of getting at least 3 or 4 positive responses back are very good. At the end of the day I'd rather be flying rubber dog s&!/ outta hong kong (to quote a film) than to be working at a lube station living at my parents until the market turns. I guess I come from an opinion that the industry as long as I have known it has never really "boomed" and I believe that although there are less jobs out there for sure. I think the only difference now is that one must dig a little deeper, and harder to get something that before came easier. However for the time being I will continue my training and come October embark on what sounds like one h:)) of a trip!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Your opinion is wrong. The CV of a 20yr old from the other side of the world with a piddling 250 hours and no commercial experience isn't even going to get used to wipe the chief pilots bum. There will be locally based unemployed type rated pilots handing him theirs through the window and being grateful for the opportunity.

You've not done your research and as such you're being ridiculously reckless.


WWW

[happyjack]

I used to wear those same rose coloured spectacles but that is just what they are.
I have 26 years flying experience and despite hundreds of CV postings, emails, telephone calls, sms's, friends in high places etc etc etc for the last year I still can't get a sniff at anything! I am one of thousands.
Please don't get me wrong, I hope you do well, but do not underestimate the situation. It is a total bloodbath out there and I have never known it quite so bad.
This is industry genocide!
Face the reality. Make sure you have a means to support yourself. ie. a real job/career. If you can live while you pass the years trying to find a flying job then all is well. If you NEED that flying job to survive you will starve! Reality, that's all!

[INNflight]

Fiveoh,

Apart from what has been said re. the market (bloodbath popped up :bored:), the other problem you'd face IF there WOULD be jobs is work permits.

There's NO WAY you - as a 250hrs pilot - would get a work permit for either the US or Europe! The issue is both countries have a sh*tload of unemployed pilots, often with hundreds or thousands more hours, so they are not gonna let another one attend the party.

Re. instructing:

It's just that I think I would find it very boring doing the same routine over and over again.

I think once you're licensed you'll see that opinion fades very fast. Every day is a bit different, even in the GA world, new challenges come up, and you'll just be grateful to have the chance to fly over and over again, sharpen your skills, make friends and fly for no cost. Trust me, you will!

[irishone]

Your wrong on your odds lad. I have over 200 cv's gone out all over the place. And nothing.
I am still resending them once a month every month and still nothing. You need a tr/hours/god on your side to get a job now. Thats about it.

BUT it will change...so hold the faith keep yourself current and build a few hours.

[fiveoh]

All very good points I suppose GA wouldn't be a bad route to go after all, by the sounds of it. LOL . But is 500-600 hrs pic on a 172 even worth anything when trying to get on with an airline? I suppose I' m a bit confused with having to get a TR and then also have hours on type aswell. Let's say I get 737 ng TR k now I've been rated so what's the point how do I build these so called " hrs"? If an airline what's jet time but I have to be type rated to get jet time but they won't take a pilot who strictly has a tr with no time on type :s so how does one get the time on type?

[Greensman]

Hi guys. My mentor who retired from flying a few months ago told me before getting into the flying business, " you got to make your mind up to do what ever and go where ever it takes to find that job and make that career". Sitting at home waiting on that lucky beak might take you a lot longer than you expect, especially in the industry now. As a low time pilot, i had to pack my bags and move 7 time zones and weather the storm. Its not the best or preferred kind of flying i'd like to do but i'm still building time, staying current and making pretty good money now. In time once things settle down then i can get back into the swing of things.

For now guys, An airplane is an airplane, is an airplane, no matter what or where you fly it.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is nowhere. In the world. That wants you.


It really is as simple and as bleak as that.

WWW

[Stan Woolley]

Mr Aviation has spoken! :yuk:

There will always be jobs somewhere if you are determined enough to get one.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Will there? Really? Enlighten me.


WWW

[Stan Woolley]

I just. Cant. Be bothered. I'm too busy. Being melodramatic. :ok:

[irishone]

I would also like to be enlightened!
Cos there really isnt many... bush flying is the only option and with that theres no sure thing of a job. Its pot luck.

[fiveoh]

Ha ha ha well I'm glad others don't share your drawl attitude towards this topic other wise the future of aviation might have some chinks in the chain don't you think? Without fresh faced pilots to fill in the gaps where will the industry be in 10 to 20 years? I don't share your knock the wind out of the sail attitude. There has, and always will be demand for pilots granted we are in a lull but it will pick up. Everything is having the same problem look at the oil and gas industry, look at gm (some of these assembly line guys made 75 an hour, now all on their a**es), look at Chrysler,look at the banks! All are suffering.

When my dad was choosing his major he was told he was crazy to major in geology, that there was no demand for geo- technical engineers that he would never get a job as geo-technical engineer but being his one true calling he stuck with it and now has for the last 30 yrs made an amazing career out of it.

My point being is that for me and I'm sure for many thousands like me there isn't anything else I could imagine doing. So for me I have no option but to roll with the punches I guess. On that note you are entitled to your opinion as am I and were all in this for the long run anyways good or bad!

Cheers:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Good luck with it then. With luck and perseverence and the right finance I'm sure you'll make it. As a parting shot I'll leave you with:

"Time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted."

Sir MacPherson (Mac) Robertson 1860 - 1945



WWW

[fiveoh]

Thats a good quote i'll definetley keep that in mind.

cheers :ok:

[Stan Woolley]

Well maybe it depends on the modern definition of a flying job?

I was happy to get a first job flying C210's in Namibia as would any of my pals. A King Air? Forget it!

It appears that recently the B737 has become the norm as a nice little entry level jet? Lower your sights guys this is aviation reality!

Not good to see capable experienced guys struggling though.

[happyjack]

You are being very naive Fiveoh. WWW is dead right.
But if you want to ignore the advise of those who have gone before you and know so much more than you then that is your perogative.
You simply cannot compare aviation with any other industry. There is none like it.
The catch 22 of "you need experience to get a job but you cant get experience without a job" has always been the case. It is even more so now.
If you think you can get a CPL, a 737 type and Bob's your uncle you are gonna have a big surprise!

[v6g]

fiveoh - there are still jobs around in Canada from entry-level (bush / instrucing) through to air-taxi, the regionals and the majors. Things are ticking over slowly, just not the boom-boom of recent years.

Most people on here are UK-centric and are experiencing a localised depression but things aren't so bad in your home country.

Recession yes but not a total depression.

As Stan Woolley points out, if you can accept starting on career on something other than a 737 then the work is out there.

[john.o.pilot]

fiveoh is clearly a salesman with no clue about the real life for new pilots and the amount of sh:mad: they need to go through to get a job.

Live in your delusion lad.

I'd avise all the young people to study and have a second job. not any job but a good job.

Ratings renewal alone (after you spent loads of cash to qualify) would cost you 1000s of $ or £, so you need a good/highly paid job to pay for all that. Sorry guys, i could tell you it will pick up and you will fly etc etc. but i am not a bull:mad:ter, prefer reality.

[OneIn60rule]

IT doesn't seem to matter what year it was.
Some 2 years ago a good prognosis was forecast because of the "baby boom".

Today you have the recession.

During the days of the forecast boom, finding a job was easier at least at that time even I was getting replies from companies and in many cases required more hours and do keep in touch etc.

Recently I have managed a positive response and selection only by sending a CV. Received a phone call roughly 2 weeks later asking to go in for an interview.

At the same time I was asked by another party how many multi hours I had. Sadly I only had 50 which isn't enough as the limit is 100, however this gig would've been in Africa for a few weeks. (I'm not exactly that desperate yet)


The situation people have to comprehend. It could be that you'll get lucky with a CV fired off to 100 companies but it's far better if you manage a contact in a few companies and bide your time.

Again the one who manages to snag the job isn't always the one with most hours, it's the one who's most likeable and is there at the right time and place.
Being willing to relocate is an absolute must if you want to start at all.
There are places though that I would not bother with!

1/60

[fiveoh]

I'm not going to get in a bun fight here. Clearly there are some strong opinions here, and the last thing I want is to undermine experianced professionals that have been doing this when I was still in diapers! on one side there are people saying I'm a naive student who doesn't understand how the industry really is and on the other I have people saying if I am willing to relocate and fly smaller equipment I will find work in Canada ( should be noted that I never said I would only fly 737's that is an outlandish expectation in todays climate).

clearly two sides to this question's answer. I suppose we'll see 6 months from now who was right, after all the proof is in the pudding:) theres no point speculating where i'll be in 6 months,

thanks for the responses. Cheers and happy flying:ok:

G.H