Secret Chinese J-10 fighter jet in televised drama

[KiloDeltaYankee]

Apologies if this has already been posted:

Secret Chinese J-10 fighter jet in televised drama - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5961023.ece)

Why would the chinese release this kind of infomation?...They´re usually very secretive....unless it´s dissinformation.

[TEEEJ]

The PRC have been open on reporting mil aircraft accidents. The J-10 has been officially revealed back in 2006.

Even when one of their AWACS Balance Beam aircraft crashed it was reported and images released on the web.

See Don Chan's reporting on PRC accidents. He regularly post on PRC and other Far East accidents.

[Accident Report] PLAAF accident in March 2005 in PRC - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41587)

The video footage on The Times link is years old stock from the 2006 revealing.

J-10 revealed on PRC TV.

YouTube - J10 flying video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhnZIx-hwc)

Some quality images of J-10 from Zuhai Airshow last year

Photos: Chengdu J-10A Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/China---Air/Chengdu-J-10A/1457854/L/)

Photos: Chengdu J-10A Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/China---Air/Chengdu-J-10A/1419846/L/)

Photos: Chengdu J-10A Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/China---Air/Chengdu-J-10A/1423762/L/)

Photos: Chengdu J-10A Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/China---Air/Chengdu-J-10A/1424095/L/)

TJ

[mr fish]

the old saying, "if it looks right, it is right".
well to my eyes that aircraft looks WRONG!!!

[GPMG]

Front and rear of an F-16 jammed onto the body of a Typhoon?

Doesn't look that bad Mr Fish. And it's the best fighter in BF2 so it must be good. :)

[Magic Mushroom]

The J-10 is developed directly from the IAI Lavi with Israeli assistance. It will therefore most likely have a significant US derived avionics capability, albeit probably only at the F-16 Block 30/40 ish level.

Given that it's soon to be available for export (Pakistan are to recieve some and the Iranians are also interested), we should treat the aircraft with respect.

Regards,
MM

[AR1]

Looks cool, but if its anything like my Chinese Scooter, it'll fall apart after 10 months, and you wont be able to get the spares for it.

Now what does interest me, is the concept of the crew marching to their Aircraft. Definitely worth looking at from a station morale point of view.

[wild goose]

The claim that the J-10 was developed from the Lavi are pure speculation, based on the rough external similarity, incl the fwd canards.
Israel has ensured that relatively old technology (Such as the Python 3 SRAAM) was sold to the Chinese, as Chinese hardware and knowhow usualy find their way into Arab and Pakistani air forces.

[Magic Mushroom]

WG,

I really don’t think Israel’s involvement with the J-10 could be described as speculation old chap!

Russian engineers recently confirmed it at the same time that they highlighted Chinese reliance upon Russian expertise in AAM and engine development. Indeed, Israeli personnel have privately admitted involvement with the J-10, quite aside from their long running support for Chinese AEW (blocked by the US), AAMs and avionics.

Regards,
MM

[wild goose]

Whilst there was significant trade in weapons systems between China and Israel, the connection to the Lavi is rather tenuous. Indeed - if one makes this assertion based on external appearance - the J-10 is also very simialr to the Eurofighter Typhoon.
It's just so much more "sexy" to claim Israeli involvement. (Mushroom perhaps you can point us toward some proof, or at least to some credible matter on the web regarding this allegation).
It must also be remembered that Pakistan is buying this aircraft (36 so far) and had Israel been involved in the J-10 development, they would be able to influence the foreign sales of the aircraft, and would certainly not agree to Pakistan buying the J-10. (Pakistani pilots have at times served with the Syrian AF against Israel.)
There has also been speculation of the MiG 1.44 influencing the design as well.
Israel's main trade with the PLAAF was the IL-76 AWACS deal which was cancelled due to US pressure pre-delivery, and the Python 3 AAMs and Harpy SEAD UCAV's. It was the latter deal (actualy an upgrade of existing drones in the PLAAF inventory) which lead the US to say "enough is enough". A crisis was precipitated by the US and a senior Israeli armaments official was forced to resign his post. As a result, a settlement agreement between the US and Israel included an immediate cessation of all Israeli weapons trade with China, at all levels, including R&D.
India has since replaced China as Israel's leading weapons system export market.

[Magic Mushroom]

WG,

I'm not making the assertion based upon appearance. I'm making it based upon numerous reports from military and aerospace personnel from the US and Russia.

It's just so much more "sexy" to claim Israeli involvement. (Mushroom perhaps you can point us toward some proof, or at least to some credible matter on the web regarding this allegation).

Even the Israeli Director General of Israel's Ministry of Defense David Lari has tacitly admitted it in this (http://atimes.com/atimes/China/DL04Ad01.html) interview.

Janes (http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw080519_2_n.shtml) appears pretty convinced after speaking with Russian personnel close to the project who even stated that one of the Lavi prototypes had been delivered to China.

The Russians discussed (http://www.ainonline.com/airshow-convention-news/farnborough-air-show/single-publication-story/browse/0/article/sibnia-remains-center-of-russian-innovation/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Bstory_pointer%5D=2&tx_ttnews%5Bmode%5D=1) it further at the Farnborough show.

I rest my case.

In reality, I suspect theJ-10 is, as you intimate, a combination of Russian, Israeli, French and Chinese technology developed nationally or via industrial espionage. However, I think that there is more than sufficient strong evidence to suggest the Israelis were heavily involved.

As you mention, it is perhaps ironic that the aircraft is to be sold to Pakistan and, allegedly, Iran. The Israelis also had a significant hand in the South African Cheetah C and associated AAMs until the US reigned them in.

Regards,
MM

[Double Zero]

If the thing's got any Lavi experience mixed in, I should think people ought to read John Farley's test of that aircraft before writing this off as ' F-16 Block 30-40 standard '...Speaking more about cockpit & systems design rather than purely airframe.

[wild goose]

MM thanks for that - it is an interesting read.
David Lari mentioned the transfer of "technology on aircraft" which is a rather general statement. The general message of the article has a jist of accusation against Israel's
arms trade, as if that is illegitemate whilst everyone else's is OK. I usualy give these authors and their motives a wide berth.
In addition - the US pressure for the cancellation of the Lavi project was mainly a commercial motive, as the Lavi threatened the market for the F-16 and indeed was considered a more capable aircraft at the time. (Such a competitor being created with US financial assistance does indeed not make a lot of sense!) There was not an issue of technology transfer - rather the opposite - the Lavi was more technologically innovative than US aircraft of the time,
Having said all that - it would not surprise me if there was some Israeli content at some level or another in the J-10. I would assume that this would be in the avionics field. It is doubtful that this content would be especially sensitive, as Israel is no doubt aware of China's allies and customers, who include enemies of Israel.
Regarding the South African Cheetah - I believe this is a mere clone of the Kfir C10 that does indeed include Lavi avionics. That project was discontinued due to the change (deterioration) in relations between South Africa and Israel that put an end to all military cooperation. (The Kfir project was also discontinued, the C10 being the final mark). US pressure here was not a factor.

[wild goose]

Double Zero
Could you point me to that article by John Farley? I'd like to read it.

[Double Zero]

Wild Goose,

It's in John's book ' A View From The Hover ' - where John particularly relates testing the Lavi, MiG-29, T-45A & T-67M in Chapter 7, ' Evaluating Other People's Aeroplanes '.

I'm sure John would call these 'taster ' evaluations, obviously not being fully involved in the full development programmes, but of course his conclusions are authorative and interesting, to say the least.

DZ

[TEEEJ]

'New J-10 variant sighted'

New J-10 variant sighted (http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw090323_1_n.shtml)

Some through the trees shots at the following link.

PLAAF News, Photos and Speculation #12 - Page 14 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83594&page=14)

It appears to have a DSI (Diverterless Supersonic Inlet) type inlet as tested on the F-16.

Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet — July 2000 (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2000/articles/july_00/divertless_1.html)

TJ

[Double Zero]

Let's face it,

We are in a near Duncan Sandys phropecy situation, even though the guy was a berk in his time; I suppose if history is very kind it might call him far-sighted, though if a raffle was held to etch something else on his headstone I think it would be shorter & more succinct.

Instead of ground launched rocket / missiles as he apparently dreamt up on the way into work one day, what we are actually faced with is UCAV's which will soon if not already out-dogfight manned aircraft, and more to the point, with manned aircraft the fighting ability is pretty much down to the sensors ( attack & defence ) and weapon / defensive suite envelopes...

As I see it from my comfy chair, ( which is not by Martin Baker, and though I've flown in one but not used it, I think I'll go for the Russian job, ta very much ! ) the platform capabilities are more concerned with stealth, endurance, and aforesaid sensors.

It used to be said by real Harrier pilots that ' Viffing is a manouvre largely invented by the Sun 'newspaper' in 1982 ( apologies to Harry Blot ) and that if your enemy was behind you, you were probably dead already so it might be a last resort.

Strikes me that getting into any sort of 'dogfight', especially now with helmet cued weapons, is going the same way.

I do believe there is an extremely strong case for something like a Super A-10 / gun on GR7/9 in the short term, to state the bleeding obvious.

Then if you believe the snippets which surprisingly often prove correct, such things will have a very sci-fi replacement.

Sometime.