TAA and the 727 200

[QF A330]

My wife and I were chatting and she can't remember the config on the 727 200, on the PER flights it was 28 F/C and who can remember the Y/C seat numbers.
Hard for an old girl to remember.
Thanks

[SOPS]

now THIS is going to be a cool thread!!!!:ok:

[Mr.Buzzy]

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/alfiephotobucket/TAAB727VH-TBOG01-1979.jpg

[zube]

A beautiful machine to land. Greasers every time.

Pity it had to have flight engineers.

[john_tullamarine]

A beautiful machine to land

You refer to the -100, I presume ?

I can't recall a dreadful landing on the -100 .. but can only recall one really good one on the -200 ..

What I could never work out was how Stan B (AN), with whom I flew my consolidation block, managed to land the -200 .. each, and every, approach was drilled down to the aiming point and then, just as my eyeballs were popping out of their sockets .. he would do something (?) and the aircraft just ran along the runway.

.. if only I could have worked out what it was that he did .. but it eluded me totally.

[18-Wheeler]

JT - The 'Boeing push' perhaps? ;)

[stable approach]

john tullamarine,
I'm with you. During my five years on the 72, I met many guys who stated over a beer that they did greasers every landing, but failed miserably to demonstrate that in practice. I saw very few actual greasers during that 5 years. But what a lovely, lovely aeroplane!
And they had 5 hostesses!! (yes, hostesses in those days before PC)

zube,
I don't understand the crack about the F/E's. Generally speaking they were a great bunch of blokes, and many a good time was had in their company. Okay, they had a habit of blocking any good looking female visitor to the cockpit from getting past their desk. And they also had a habit of leading innocent young f/o's into too many watering holes, but generally they were a great asset to the operation.

[3 Holer]

And they also had a habit of leading innocent young f/o's into too many watering holes.......

Yep, they were the days AND they were girls!!! ;)

As for the Flight Engineers you wouldn't leave home without them. Great blokes all of them and a very valuable asset on the Flight Deck. :ok:

[QF A330]

The wife was a girl in those days she graduated as a air hostess in the mid 70's....................still flying for a few more years, need to keep her working to maintain our Staff Travel seniority, last trip we were 1st on the J upgrade out of 12 staff.

[Fantome]

to maintain our Staff Travel seniority, last trip we were 1st on the J upgrade out of 12 staff.

Makes me want to pewk . . .. . . now let's have real three-holer flashbacks.

[john_tullamarine]

JT - The 'Boeing push' perhaps?

No, that technique on the 722 is very obvious .. AN pushed the Boeing push line fairly strongly for new chums. After a period characterised by a singular lack of success with that technique, I tried landing the thing like a C172 and that worked far better ...

The one landing which did work well was a greaser's greaser (ie a fluke) .. but very disconcerting .. no sound or vibration of touchdown and we ALL knew that if it wasn't on the ground then we were all about to find out in a very definite manner. As it turned out the ASI just slowed down and eventually I was game enough to pull the PECL.

Mind you, when the head hostie stuck her head in to enquire as to the author of the landing, I had no trouble accepting credit .. albeit that it had naught to do with my then beginner's skill level on the beast ..

Stan's technique was tied up with the aircraft's being a simple extension of his thought processes .. or so it seemed to me. He was the only chap I can recall flying with who was so reliably consistent with his landings. When I discussed it with him, he dismissed his skill as being largely good luck (which I am sure is the same way that Goren used to characterise his luck at the table ...). I don't think that he ever had worked out just how he landed the aircraft .. he just did it.

Yet the -100 was one of nature's pussycats to land ...

[maui]

JT
The so called "Boeing Push" led more than a few to horrendous results, because they did it too early. A few feet above the deck and with a body angle of zero, and no where to go. Pull back and drive the whees down, or hold your attitude and eventually drop out of the sky.

The more successful, used a mere relaxation of backpressure. Approaching with about 3 degrees ANU, ON SPEED, continue down until you feel the ground effect. (It is quite noticeable). The ground effect tends to roll the aircraft nose down. Just check the nose down tendency then relax the backpressure. DO NOT PUSH. Generally touchdown is smooth with about 2-3 degrees ANU. The beauty and consistency of this method is that it requires little judgement as the ground effect will tell you when to do it.

Worked well on DC9 and MD 80 also.

Maui

[Fantome]

Mind you, when the head hostie stuck her head in to enquire as to the author of the landing, I had no trouble accepting credit .. albeit that it had naught to do with my then beginner's skill level on the beast ... . . .. or a very dry, laconic, "Are we down yet?"

(Great story in Harry Purvis's 'Outback Airman' 'bout the time his hopeless co-pilot was sent back to apologise to the army brass on board for his horrific landing. Some time later one of those men down the back bumped into Harry and asked him were his landings any better? What? says Harry. Well that time at Mascot when you sent your offsider back to tell us the wingco says sorry about the landing. He's been flying a desk lately and hasn't got his eye back in.)

[By George]

Mr Maui, you have it in a nutshell. The only thing I would add, the 200 never seemed to like Vre+5, worked best Vref+10 as a basic minimum. Also flap 30 was always easier than flap 40, not smart enough to know why. I must admit every now and then you would get a 'back breaker', more often than not in calm winds. She was all female, beautiful, but a little difficult to work out at times. Oddly enough very easy in crosswinds.

[maui]

By George.
It's just that crosswinds made you a little more focussed.

M

[ozaggie]

Cant remember flying in a nicer aeroplane as SLF. With over 11000 hrs. ginning around in mostly Ag gear, I had the pleasure years ago as a freight dude with AN to fly cheap, and loved every minute of the time in a 72. Bring back the good old days, I say! Keep the thread going, this is good ****!

[Bullethead]

My first flight in a jet was in 1975 on the B727 Redeye out of Perth for Melbourne when I joined the RAAF. I'll never forget the smooth, powerful acceleration.

As it happens my next flight in a jet was with me driving it.

Regards,
BH.

[john_tullamarine]

more than a few to horrendous results, because they did it too early.

Being a bear of very little brain, it took me a while to figure out that it all came down to making sure that, at the end of the flare, the mains were only an inch or so off the seal .. then it didn't matter too much what you did. If, however, the mains were 6 inches off the seal ... it was a very different story .. the stuff of prayer meetings .. the closest I guess that we ever came to understanding the feelings of the Martyrs at the time of death ...

it requires little judgement as the ground effect will tell you when to do it.

Concur .. I called my version of that technique the closing-eyes-and-hoping-for-the-best approach and landing technique. All jokes aside, once folk got their eye in with the old lady, it was a delightful aeroplane. However, anytime one got a bit uppity and considered that one was now on top of things .. she would deliver a small (or large) slap just to remind one that she was OIC.

the 200 never seemed to like Vre+5, worked best Vref+10

The -100 was a conventional 1g stall certification, the -200 min speed. The notional difference was around 5-10 knots .. if you carried the extra speed on the -200, it behaved a lot more like the -100.

[boocs]

When did the -100's arrive for both TN and AN?

Same for the -200's

Did TN have LR's or just AN? What made it an LR?

Is it true that AN had some of the last 727's off the production line?
b.

[john_tullamarine]

Did TN have LR's or just AN? What made it an LR?

AN had LRs (ANA, etc., as I recall). The specific numbers are lost in the memory defects but the LR had an extra 45 minutes or so fuel and a few systems differences.

[Sand dune Sam]

What a jet....early 80's in Canberra, right base runway 17, turning base between Mount Ainslie and Mount Majura..........the good old days:ok:

[beaver_rotate]

Please keep this thread going and some sharing of pics would be great.

The DC9 thread is brilliant, look forward to more war stories on here. I'm only youngish (25), and my boss is 89er ex TAA 727 (he drives titans now with me) and he talks about the old girl like it was his first lover.

First plane I ever went on (@ AN), and there's no doubt it got me 'hooked' to where I am today. Thanks again.

BR

[3 Holer]

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss215/b727200/VLITESTFLTAUG0819.jpg

VH-VLI just out of a C check.

and 0300 hrs MEL - PER.

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss215/b727200/JUSTCRUISIN2.jpg

[Peter Fanelli]

When did the -100's arrive for both TN and AN?

Same for the -200's


Back in those days generally one right after the other. :hmm:

[Mr.Buzzy]

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/alfiephotobucket/TAA-1MelbMtce-1.jpg

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/alfiephotobucket/TAAB727VH-TBOL01-1979.jpg

TBO..... No Telly screens in this machine when this was taken! She's a brand spanker here. Washington state. Pre-delivery,

bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzz

[Pole Vaulter]

AN had 4 LR I believe. ANA, ANB, ANE, ANF, They certainly were very late in the 727 production. ANA was the one that blew no 2 engine on take of at BNE on 4th July but not sure of the year. Still have the image of it in my brain going down wind with a flame coming out of the no2 and all the cowls missing.

[SIUYA]

Pole Vaulter.........

4th July 1992. See http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1992/AAIR/pdf/aair199202582_001.pdf

JT......one of the big differences with the LR was the PDCS (Performance Data Computer System), which if memory serves me correctly, allowed for M0.84 and a slightly higher cruise altitude than was possible from a manual plot off the cruise charts. I stand to be corrected though!

[john_tullamarine]

one of the big differences with the LR was the PDCS

It was generally held that

(a) AN got taken for a marketing ride by Boeing with that one

(b) most of us would just as soon rely on the F/E

other than that, it worked OK most of the time.

As I suggested .. a few systems differences .. even autothrottle, if memory serves me correctly ?

[By George]

Don't forget, 'LR' stood for 'long range' the aircraft had an extra forward fuselage tank holding 6,500 lbs. To take the higher operating weights it was beefed up slightly around the wing and gear. The straight 200 was easier to land than an LR, being generally lighter with the same engines. The LR, needed the dash 17's in my opinion.

[By George]

Sorry 'JT', must read thread before answering, you have mentioned the extra fuel tank. It was designed to be able to fly from SYD to PER and carry an alternate. However, when the wind was strong and PER had a fog prob it was still very tight. I remember one crew ending up at Alice after missing out at Kalgoolie. It still raises the hair on my neck thinking of the fuel figure they landed with.

[john_tullamarine]

able to fly from SYD to PER

Lots of practice with the prayer wheel doing PNRs on the way to PER ... the Goose was much better ... east coast to west coast with Auckland as the alternate as I recall ?

The DC9 guys get my vote for fuel shuffling.

[SOPS]

I knew this would be a cool thread.....keep it coming boys and girls:ok:

[tinpis]

Wonder when someone will start an Ansett and the BA 146 thread? :sad:

[SIUYA]

Teepee.......

I don't think anyone's silly enough (or brave enough?) to do that here! :}

[mingalababya]

Just out of curiosity, was AN and TN's company fuel policy similar to that used in the ATPL flight planning exam? I've often wondered how similar the theory is to practical real life situations.

[tinpis]

mingalababya, no

[Capt Claret]

Just out of curiosity, was AN and TN's company fuel policy similar to that used in the ATPL flight planning exam? I've often wondered how similar the theory is to practical real life situations.

I studied SCPL NAV & FPLNG theory under the late Noel Lamont, whom I found to be a top bloke, an excellent teacher, and the repository of more than a few good "stories".

To digress, he would work out a rough multi stage PNR or CP in 5 to 10 mins, then would take another half hour to refine the answer to satisfy the examiners. The accurate answer rarely varied by more than a few minutes, or a hand full of miles, but took ages to acquire.

Anyhow, Noel was heard to say that "any similarity to what you learn here and real flying is pure coincidence".

I still believe the 727-200 is the most perfectly aesthetically beautiful aeroplane ever built. :ok:

[john_tullamarine]

Anyhow, Noel was heard to say

Certainly a chap of many stories, if not without his foibles (as applies to all of us, I guess).

Many fond memories of the old wooden hut during the late 70s and early 80s... the odd party ... and more than the occasional spirited technical discussion with Noel and the Nimbus boys.

[tinpis]

The NERUS MKII bore as much similarity to an airplane operation as a pie-cart does

[FGD135]

My most favourite aircraft of all - the B727-200.

In the flight deck photo above, those EPRs look like they're around 2.00. I assume that aircraft was a 200 ADV, with -17 engines.

Was 2.00 a typical cruise EPR for those engines?

I ask because I am spending a lot of time dabbling with 727s on MS Flight Simulator 2004. I spend hours trying to get realistic sounds and instrument indications. :cool:

[tinpis]

Hissing windows and klat-klat-klat-klat of the trim wheel be about right sounds

[SIUYA]

Seeing as the thread's now completely 'adrift'..........

The NERUS MKII bore as much similarity to an airplane operation as a pie-cart does

So, if that's the case, do you think -------- ------- are planning to introduce the NERUS MKII into their network soon? :}

[By George]

I believe 'Nerus' was the examiners name spelt backwards. If flying the aeroplane was that complicated you'd have to sign on a day early.

[3 Holer]

Getting back onto the subject.

FGD 135 as a rule of thumb when your EPR was 2.00, you were cruising at the aircraft's optimum flight level. As you burnt fuel you would reduce EPR to maintain cruising speed. The EPR in the photo below is 1.95 so FL 310 was below optimum. As the next way point is ESP, I can only assume the headwind component at the higher optimum level restricted climb to that level.

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss215/b727200/CRZFL310.jpg

This low level shot of Varig's 727 was emailed to me from a mate of mine at Air Atlanta.
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss215/b727200/Picture1.jpg

[FGD135]

3 Holer,

Thanks for the answer. And thanks for the photo - it answers a few other questions I had (relating to N1, N2 & EGT).

A Youtube video of the Varig Log low pass can be found here. Unfortunately, the tosser editing the video chose to add extra engine noise:

YouTube - Boeing 727 VARIG low pass - hot dog... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzidphcp6N8)

[beaver_rotate]

3 Holer:

Would you mind telling us where your at post B727 @ NJS?

[3 Holer]

Would you mind telling us where your at post B727 @ NJS?

Long Service Leave. ;)

[Old Fella]

My thanks to stable approach and 3 Holer for their kind words for the F/E's. As for zube, I wonder if he ever had the luxury of a F/E and, if he did, how many of his shortcomings might have been pointed out by a F/E in the interest of self preservation.

[18-Wheeler]

Add me to those who think (Know!!) that an FE in an aeroplane is a damn good thing. Whilst it's no doubt more cost efficient most of the time to have a two-crew aeroplane, there are certainly times where having an FE saves your arse big-time.

[john_tullamarine]

I believe 'Nerus' was the examiners name spelt backwards.

Ian had his moments on occasion ... this is all getting way back into ancient history, now ..

Add me to those who think (Know!!) that an FE in an aeroplane is a damn good thing.

Concur .. however, they also tended to get pilots into dreadfully compromised situations on overnights .... I can still recall Ron H (although the failing memory may have the players and places misplaced .. ) and his handing out the hair shampoo sachets to the girls on arrival at Alice ... a funny man, that chap ..

[tipsy2]

72 FE mate of mine reckoned his job was the same as a stagecoach driver.........................:=

[3 Holer]

Ah, yes, the "Hare" and Black Jack, what a team! Had a layover in DRW with that pair early '80s - I am so glad our departure was a late one the next day.:ouch:

Big Al C and JJ were another couple of top F/Es. They were the days and I am sad to say, they ain't coming back.:{

Most of the crew those days had the following sticker on their navbags as I recall.

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss215/b727200/Cartoon20727.jpg

[john_tullamarine]

Black Jack

Did my ground school with John .. and then got into various instances of strife with him. Wonderful years which the new chums will never know, I guess. Ron and Black Jack .. and Darwin ... the headaches come back ..

I think we all had the decals ...

[By George]

F/E RH had a minimum fuel figure of 21,000lbs, he hated flying with less. Once with 160kt tailwinds I asked him for 19,000lbs. (ADL-MEL) During the checklist he said, "three sevens are nineteen" ( the fuel was evenly distributed between wing and centre tanks) and yes we had his 21,000lbs. You couldn't get angry with him, just made me laugh. Top bloke. Another character would sit at his panel wearing a hat with a propeller spinning on the top of it. Always got a few stares from the pax with the door open. I still miss not having an F/E.

[fl610]

Let's not forget "Reiley Ace of Pisspots!" :ouch: :ok:

[Old Fella]

If you are referring to a recently retired F/E (KJR) I am sure he would be impressed NOT.

[3 Holer]

Old fella.

Different F/E. Surnames spelt differently - Reilly was the recently retired and Jack, whilst he liked a cold beer on a hot day, was not a piss pot!

[tinpis]

There were pisspot F/Es though? :rolleyes:

[Old Fella]

3 Holer

I am pleased that we both know and understand that the recently retired F/E is not a piss pot. He and I have been mates for forty years (well, 39 anyhow) and were on the same F/E course all those years ago. Jack is a monument to the F/E world, none better in my opinion. We did share just a couple of beers just a few weeks ago when he stayed at my place overnight.

[puff]

Big of youtube footage of the last 727 flights here I found. Had some awesome trips on the old 727s.

YouTube - Ansett 727 Final Flights Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uieUJpfsLPU)

YouTube - Ansett 727 Final Flights Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHboj7boWaI)

[18-Wheeler]

Apologies if it's been asked before, but has anyone got a link to those wonderful TAA adverts on the telly in 80's, where they had the camera in the tail? I haven't seen them in sooo long, but I thought they were great stuff.