What are brokers charging these days to sell aircraft? Is their service worth the extra fee (compared to, say, sticking an ad in the classifieds myself) I can understand the extra layer of assurance as a buyer but as a seller, is there any benefit ? (apart from not having to field all comers!)
Would be interested to hear others views, esp. those that have been there done that!
Many thanks!
Have bought two aircraft through brokers and quite a few others privately.
Only sold a couple but never actually through a broker. It is all pretty simple and straight fwd. Just make sure the purchaser gives you a bank cheque or cash or you wait until funds are deposited to your account before handing over the keys.
Fielding customers and putting up with tyre kickers can be the biggest headache but you can usually sort them out pretty quick.
From memory, all that occurred was a pre-purchase inspection which is arranged and paid for by the purchaser and transfer of C 0f R documents.
PlankBlender
22nd Mar 2009, 07:38
Agents will charge around 10% of the purchase price, which puts them up there with Realos:ugh: -- a big price tag for not much work or value at all. Unless of course you're happy to pay for just being handed the key, learning nothing in the process := and probably being BS's the whole time:yuk:. One notable exception might be buying from overseas, but that's probably not a wise move at the moment with the $ in the basement..
Some agents I know are worse than used car sales people:yuk::yuk:, constantly lying to prospective buyers about anything and everything. One tactic I've been at the receiving end of is the old 'it's under offer' line, which inevitably leads to clued-up prospective buyers walking away:ugh:. I know of one case where a Chieftain had to be ferried to the other side of the country (costing the seller thousands of course) because a well known capital city broker had used the 'under offer' BS and a buyer with his cheque book at the ready went elsewhere and spent the better part of a million bucks..:mad:
If you're selling, do your research and put it in the Aviation Trader with a realistic asking price and be prepared to negotiate, it's been a buyer's market for years -- one guy I wanted to buy an Archer off a while ago is still sticking to his dream price, and guess what, it's been on the market for over a year.. :hmm: BTW, this particular one was advertised as an Archer by an otherwise fairly decent agent, and it turned out to be a PA-28-180, i.e. a Cherokee 180, not and Archer (PA-28-181) at all :eek:, and owner and agent are still selling it as an Archer:ugh: -- i.e. do your homework, in this case different model means different AD's, different maintenance requirements/costs, etc... There's no harm of course talking to the agents to get an idea of the market value, but take any advice with a big pinch of salt, there's often vested interest in anything they'll tell ya.. Put proper photos and a detailed description online or send it to prospects via email, that keeps effort to a minimum.
If you're buying, again do your research where machines you're interested in are kept, talk to other owners/LAME's, make a shortlist of more than one and less than five aeroplanes that come close to your 'dream machine', and then use the CASA register to get in contact with the owners directly.
Price-wise, I think they're two basic approaches:
1. Negotiate a fair price AFTER doing the pre-purchase, factoring in anything found in the pre-purchase, if you're sure it's the machine you want and you and the seller are in the same ball park price wise.
2. If you want the option to walk away without incurring the cost of the pre-purchase (see below) FIX a LOW price BEFORE the pre-purchase and factor in a few thousand of bits and bobs to be fixed, putting in a walk-away/renegotiate clause in the purchase agreement in case major defects are found.
I used the second, less obvious option and got a great price on what turned out to be a fantastic machine! :)
There are various aeroplane contracts out there on the net, no need to pay for one, I put one together from various sources, PM me for details. :ok:
BEFORE you buy, KNOW EXACTLY what the operation is going to cost you and that the machine is the right one for what you want her for. Be realistic estimating for 100 hourlies (ASK other owners), engine/prop replacement, insurance and airport charges. A PA-28 in reasonable nick will leave you with little change out of $150 per hour all in, just as a ballpark (excluding finance/opportunity costs).
You will significantly reduce your risk by doing a pre-purchase equivalent to a 100 hourly with a mechanic of your trusting (never with the people currently maintaining the machine). Talk to the ones located near to where you want to keep the aeroplane, prices vary quite a lot, I had quotes between $65-95/hr from qualitatively similar outlets. I had my pre-purchase/100 hourly done wrapped into one (the examination part of the pre-purchase is the same as for a 100 hourly, then sign the contract and have the LAME do the fixing while the machine is still in pieces), and walked away with a technically near perfect aeroplane at a great price, with a clean new MR to boot.
It turned out that the process of buying my first plane was a great experience, doing copious amounts of research was fun, and I learned heaps about my aeroplane and a lot of other things. I just did a big avionics upgrade in a similar DIY fashion, again heaps of fun (and money too, but ah well, we only live once, right?), and the new dash full of exciting toys is fabulous :} and useful as well.
Anyone interested in buying or selling, feel free to PM me, I'm happy to share more details with any aviator. :ok:
Ovation
22nd Mar 2009, 07:38
Aircraft are easy to buy and hard to sell, with the used market world wide in a difficult position since the oil price skyrocketed. Brokers I've spoken with want 5-6% plus advertising, and a broker I know well said I would be no worse off selling my aircraft privately.
So if you want to try and sell it yourself, there is the Aviation Trader which comes out monthly, sent free to all registered aircraft owners, who (unfortunately) are more likely to be sellers rather than buyers. About 2 weeks after the printed copy is issued, their ads are put on-line here Aviation Trader (http://www.aviationtrader.com.au/), where you can also search back issues.
There is a new kid on the block that is strictly on-line - http://www.aviationadvertiser .com.au where they were offering a "list it till it's sold" for $99.
Good luck! :cool:
Rich-Fine-Green
22nd Mar 2009, 10:46
I found using a broker to sell my aircraft was quite stress free.
I set my price and conditions.
It was up to the broker to then field all the phone calls, sort out who were the time wasters and tyre kickers from the serious punters.
The sale was pretty straight foward and all the paperwork was handled by the broker.
In my case, the 4% I paid was well worth it.
The same as real estate agents, you can discuss and negotiate the commission if it's exclusive to one agent.
Thanks for all the replies, folks.
PB - PM on the way!