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vonbag
21st Mar 2009, 23:33
Guests in the cockpit _after 11 September 2001_ Survey


Here, with guests I mean people not wearing a uniform, that just stand up from their passenger seats, upon invitation, and disappear behind that cockpit door for an unspecified period of time.

I for one have witnessed it in two occasions:
Once during cruise, and one time with cockpit door opening and closing during approach (very likely already on localizer intercept).
I missed to document it but the thing kind of disturbed us (me and my wife).

Recommendations of the survey:
Unless you have substantial evidence, and have already reported (or tried to report) the event, please keep it correct by NOT mentioning the Airline name publicly!

Thank you in advance,
Paolo

mcgrath50
22nd Mar 2009, 01:25
Chances are they are airline employees PAXing. I don't know if that effects the rules but keep that in mind.

Avman
22nd Mar 2009, 07:57
Please bear in mind that the so-called and pathetic post 911 FD security regulations were, on the main, introduced by the paranoid UK and US administrations. The rules apply to carriers of those countries and foreign carriers when overflying those countries. A great many countries have no such regulation and continue to allow FD visits at the Captain's discretion. PPRuNe is populated by a majority of Americans and Brits who seem to think that UK and US security regulations apply to the entire world. They don't - unless, as I already mentioned, operating to/from/overflying those countries.

UniFoxOs
22nd Mar 2009, 08:28
Avman,
I don't suppose there is a list anywhere of which countries/airlines DON'T prohibit flight deck visits? It'd be nice to be able to ask if I knew it was up to the FD.

UFO

vonbag
22nd Mar 2009, 09:50
Thank you for your explanations,
Mcgrath50 and Avman
and for the interesting question UniFoxOs.

Your answers make this survey useless, as it is too generic.
Anyhow,
it would be interesting to know if there is any of such list.
TIA

Avman
22nd Mar 2009, 10:00
No, there's no such list. Too many variables. These companies may still want proof of aviation related function and I/D or, failing that, that the visitor is aged between 20-30, female, and with a body that meets the FD crew's minimum requirements list. ;)

All I can suggest is that you simply ask.

vonbag
22nd Mar 2009, 10:15
Well, in my case I did ask.
It appeared that "guests in the cockpit" were not in the SOPs for those two Airlines.
However, now I understand the complexity of the situation, and that there could be many exceptions (including the last one you just mentioned ;)).

The survey is closed. :ok:

Mr Quite Happy
23rd Mar 2009, 12:26
Well if the survey is closed I'll just post:

"Well done Avman, two good posts".

and I won't mention:
"Never seen it happen in hundreds of flights all over the world post 9/11"

Lastly, FWIW, I hope they do start letting folk in to the deck, its nice to see the computer that's flying the plane and meet the three people that look after the computer. We're supposed to be safe on the plane because of all the pre-flight security. The in-flight stuff is fine for the USofA if it makes you feel better, but really, the backstepping from the 'armoured' doors to ("10/11") to a sticker that says "only authorised personel" rather means that in-flight security is a lie anyway.

vonbag
24th Mar 2009, 04:57
Guests in the cockpit:

Not anymore in the form of a "Survey" which has been proved to be useless
(why did I have to put it that way).

I was moved to open this thread obviously because to me this practice didn't look alright.

There is a number of reasons for which an un-trained guest in the cockpit
could cause distraction for the cockpit crew.
For instance, should an incident occur (such as a "rapid decompression", even though very rare event), not to speak about the "sterile cockpit" rule on approach, and climb out (below FL10?).

I have already asked instructions privately on how to report any of such events I described in my initial post, in the eventuality it should be repeated, and I do have my ways for doing it.

Keep your opinions and personal experiences coming,
and thank you Mr Quite Happy for having expressed yours.

James 1077
24th Mar 2009, 05:24
There is no reason not to allow cockpit visits other than as part of the "theatre of security' (theatre as it is there to show that you are doing something - even if it is pointless.

When I was a kid I used to spend a lot of time on planes and the cockpit visit was always a highlight of the flight (from plucking up the courage to ask the pretty hostess if it would be possible, to the time waiting for a response, to the time waiting until the captain sent someone to bring you up and the time spent in the cockpit being told how they fly the plane - this took up large amounts of otherwise dull flying time!).

I even got to stay in the cockpit once for a landing - which was, and still is, the highlight of my time in the air.

What I can say is that pilot recruitment is going to be hard in the coming years as kids no longer get the thrill of the cockpit visit pushing them into aviation (unless they live in the more civilised parts of the world where such things are still allowed).

kingoftheslipstream
24th Mar 2009, 05:46
mr vonbag

At th' end a the day, each country has it's own national rules; each airline haz ta obey the rules of the country over which they are flyin'. Within each airline there are rules too. There are rare instances whereby flight crew on vacation are asked ta operate a flight and do so without uniform but with permission from within the management a the company... :)

vonbag
24th Mar 2009, 09:26
Mr. James 1077 and Mr. Kingoftheslipstream,

Thank you kindly for sharing your views on the subject matter!

Surely, as I child I would have adored to enter the flight deck of an actually flying machine; I guess it's almost everybody's dream, but I may be over generalising. Alas, I never had a chance in a real Jet airliner... but perhaps, and this just to invite others to kindly participate, was this also for my own and that of other passenger's safety?

I couldn't forget to mention the Aeroflot Flight 593 air accident, "kids in the cockpit", that so unnecessarily contributed to the death of all the passengers aboard.

ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A310-304 F-OGQS Mezhduretshensk (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940323-0)

(I couldn't find the Final Report for this air crash, does somebody have a link?)

[...]
There are rare instances whereby flight crew on vacation are asked ta operate a flight and do so without uniform but with permission from within the management a the company... :-)

Should this be the case in my future eventual report to the DFO, there would certainly not be a problem for anybody (unless being banned as passenger from that certain Airline, which I couldn't care less, or a crew member that gets angry and pays me a visit at home, knowing I do not like guests ;-) )

(P.S.: erroneously I omitted a "0" in my previous, should have written "FL100", of course).

Thank you again & Good continuation!

wiggy
24th Mar 2009, 13:05
So lets get this right, you are actively looking for such incidents for an "eventual report to the DFO"............

You're not related to Jacqui Smith are you?

Juud
26th Mar 2009, 20:21
I was moved to open this thread obviously because to me this practice didn't look alright.

Mr Von, would you please explain which qualifications you hold that enable you to judge the 'alrightness' of cockpit visits?

Would you also, just to indulge my curiosity, explain why you feel the need to take it upon yourself to 'report to the DFO' (whatever that may be) the actions of a crew you trust enough to get you safely from A to B while not having the confidence that they will be able to execute that same flight in a safe manner?

As correctly pointed out by Avman, despite the utterly rigid, patently ridiculous, unproven to enhance safety rules thought up and enforced by among others the USA and the UK regulatory bodies, there are still a great many companies and countries where a Captain is considered to be not only able to command a civil airliner, but also eminently able to decide who can and can not gain access to the flight deck.

And yes, I know the Russian story; one swallow doesn't summer make, and one stupid captain doesn't mean they're all incompetent fools who need to have their work-lives regulated down to the last comma by desk-bound pen pushers whose highest ambition in life is to regulate those who soar.

Thankfully the desk-ants haven't won everywhere yet.

Answers to my questions would be much appreciated. :)

James 1077
27th Mar 2009, 05:12
Surely, as I child I would have adored to enter the flight deck of an actually flying machine; I guess it's almost everybody's dream, but I may be over generalising. Alas, I never had a chance in a real Jet airliner... but perhaps, and this just to invite others to kindly participate, was this also for my own and that of other passenger's safety?

I couldn't forget to mention the Aeroflot Flight 593 air accident, "kids in the cockpit", that so unnecessarily contributed to the death of all the passengers aboard.

From the age of 9 to about 15 I would fly at least 10 times a year (often more). From 4 to 9 it was probably only 4 times. On almost all of those flights I would spend at least 10 minutes, and sometimes more, in the cockpit. Sometimes I was even allowed to sit in one of the pilot's seats and touch the controls when one of the pilots wanted to stretch their legs.

Moreover there was always a steady stream of kids going for a visit on some of the busier school holiday flights!

At no time was the plane in any danger - in fact it may have been safer due to the eagerness of the kids and the "break from monotony" ensuring the pilots were possibly more alert.

Incidentally my favourite cockpit was the Tristar's.

Final 3 Greens
27th Mar 2009, 05:52
I see it regularly, as it is allowed by the laws of the country and the SOPS of the airline wihtin that country.

And it is really nice to see kids and others come back with the 1,000 metre stare and a wide smile :ok:

Q300
27th Mar 2009, 09:49
I don't see it as an issue at all.
But I'm a New Zealander and it's not an issue here at all - just ask. Ask and you shall receive.

Having said that, it is a cool experience if you haven't done it before. At the captain's discretion of course.

vonbag
4th Apr 2009, 17:56
Dear Mrs. Juud,
Some errands kept me busy away from here.
I am Paolo B., a physical person (not just a pseudonym, nor a troll, nor an ant ) who has read Mr. Pablo Mason related threads both in Rumours & News and in Military Aircrew sections of this Forum, to begin with.
Besides, I proudly hold Italian Citizenship, and most of my qualifications are classified.
I will hereby reply in detail:

Mr Von, would you please explain which qualifications you hold that enable you to judge the 'alrightness' of cockpit visits?

In my opinion, as I have already tried to explain with examples, I am pointing my finger at the moon, but then you are looking at me. That is one of the reasons, I think, many potential "whistle blowers", thereby transformed into indulgent cooperators, were prevented to say anything about anything.
I honestly find that question of yours impertinent and out of place in a mostly anonymous Forum.

Would you also, just to indulge my curiosity, explain why you feel the need to take it upon yourself to 'report to the DFO' (whatever that may be) the actions of a crew you trust enough to get you safely from A to B while not having the confidence that they will be able to execute that same flight in a safe manner?

For my personal safety.

As correctly pointed out by Avman, despite the utterly rigid, patently ridiculous, unproven to enhance safety rules thought up and enforced by among others the USA and the UK regulatory bodies, there are still a great many companies and countries where a Captain is considered to be not only able to command a civil airliner, but also eminently able to decide who can and can not gain access to the flight deck.

On some points I beg to differ there.

And yes, I know the Russian story; one swallow doesn't summer make, and one stupid captain doesn't mean they're all incompetent fools who need to have their work-lives regulated down to the last comma by desk-bound pen pushers whose highest ambition in life is to regulate those who soar.

There are other episodes that I did not allege. One, just by chance, is Pablo Mason's problem.

Thankfully the desk-ants haven't won everywhere yet.

I find that comment not necessary in this context. An apology would be in order, but I do not count on it.

All are happy, all agree with you, and let it be so.

--,
Paolo B.

mutt
5th Apr 2009, 05:00
Some of our aircraft operate with double crew, the aircraft has a bedroom and toilet behind the cockpit door. Crews regurally change out of their uniforms during their rest period, they are also assigned passenger seats, so it would be very common to see someone dressed like a passenger enter the cockpit once descent had begun and they had woken up. Likewise for other aircraft types, it can be crew returning from the crew bunk. On smaller aircraft it could be the observer pilot, or even a crew member just getting back to base, or even the pilots wife!

So dont stress it!

Mutt