Joining Downwind?

[Kickatinalong]

Whilst flying into Wollongong today the Super Connie joined downwind for 34, whilst the two A/C in front of him joined mid field X/W for 08, I thought downwind joining was a thing of the past "Like the Connie" Am I being too harsh to expect we should all join ccts the same way eg;
(1)Midfield X/Wind.
(2) Midfield D/W at 45°.
(3) Straight in.
Is D/W still O.K.?
Kickatinalong.:confused::confused::confused:

[Grogmonster]

Why not? Three legs of the circuit should do it.

[av8trflying]

At an aerodrome i fly into to land runway 36 and coming from the north you have join downwind because there is a stinking great hill where you would join DW from the 45 deg and another on the other side if you wanted the mid x wind.

To me i think it would be a bit much to have to overfly 5 miles then turn back for a straight in.

For me if you broadcast your intentions and give appropriate spacing, why not join downwind?

Cheers

[bentleg]

Mid field crosswind or mid field oblique downwind is preferred as I understand it.

However with something as big as Connie I think some tolerance is appropriate. It can't make sharp turns, its downwind leg would be well out from the field, much further from the field than most lighties or twins. The most important thing is making broadcasts, keeping a good lookout and being aware of the location of other traffic.

[bentleg]

For me if you broadcast your intentions and give appropriate spacing, why not join downwind?

Why not? Three legs of the circuit should do it.

You could run into traffic making a 45 deg left turn at circuit height on departure. I agree that broadcasts and spacing helps, but there is a reason.

[Peter Fanelli]

Joining downwind and flying three legs worked quite well for an awfully long time in Australia, who's stupid idea was it to change?

Oh that's right, change for the sake of change is the way of the future isn't it.

[Kickatinalong]

So reading from some posts It's OK for me to teach my students to join Downwind?
P.F. you admit it has changed , Good or Bad it HAS changed, lets all get our stuff in one pile.
I understand about larger aircraft finding it harder to turn than lighties but I was using 08 (Duty Runway cause of wind) and he was "joining D/W for 34"
I had to turn early so we didn't come head to head I wouldn't have been happy Jan if my student was on a solo nav and this happened.
Kicka.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[muddergoose]

You can't buy experience...so I have been told.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

You can't buy experience...

Oh crap, I'd better get my money back.

~FRQ CB

[sms777]

I have not flown regularly for a few years but when did the rules changed about joining downwind? I have learnt in my flying training that you always fly three legs of the circuit over an uncontrolled aerodrome. A large aircraft like the Connie would operationally require the longest runway available provided the crosswind component is within limits. If i was in a bugsmasher using the cross runway i would simply get out of the way.
The golden rule of aviation is "Aviate,Navigate,Communicate"
In a CTAF for me it is "Communicate, Aviate, Navigate"

:ok:

[Hasselhof]

On a related note, just a quick message to all those people making the following and many similar calls

"ABC joining non-standard base runway XX"
"ABC joining right downwind runway XX" (when the circuit not specified as being a right hand circuit)

Just because you tell us you're joining non-standard, or that you're joining on the wrong side of the circuit doesn't make it legal. For the sake of a couple of seconds, do the right thing and join the circuit correctly. Its where all the people doing the right thing expect you to be.

[Sunfish]

AFAIK, three legs of the circuit minimum unless set up for a straight in approach.

Upwind (dead side), crosswind and downwind joins perfectly permissible. I've never done a "mid field" join, I was taught crosswind joins are made at the end of the runway.

At a GAAP field like YMMB, you can and do receive instructions that include straight in, base and oblique downwind joins.

[Brake Boy]

Gotta say, love this "mid field" crosswind thing.

The CASA recommendation (if you watch their DVD) is when joining crosswind to join "mid field' crosswind. And it seems that we instructors teach this as gospil.

Ever seen a first solo nav student join "mid field" crosswind on an 800 metre strip. By the time the downwind leg is established their almost at their 45 degrees and ready commence the base turn. Rush Rush Rush! Different circumstances require a different approach. A "mid field" crosswind joining of the circuit at Tindal is completely appropriate (given the length ofthe runway).

Joining downwind, flying 3 legs of the circuit (as stipulated in the AIP), I dont see the problem. In saying this, there is also guidance in the AIP in selecting the most appropriate runway (consideration given to into wind).

[flysaucer1200]

What about the Overhead Rejoin?

Fly over the runway 500 ft above circuit height, make a call once overhead- ABC OVERHEAD DECENDING NON TRAFFIC SIDE 36- then descend non traffic side to circuit height to fly over up wind threshold and slotting into the mid down wind- ABC JOINS DOWNWIND FROM THE OVER HEAD 36-

this is one way ( commonly used ) in NZ of entering. Because, if no other traffic is around, how can you tell the wind direction, ok from smoke, etc. But, how can you tell what the most appropriate runway is to use. The WIND SOCK. That’s what we are all taught in NZ. If we joined the Runway at 45 degrees. Higher powers, would be upset!

How can the AIP state one thing ( join 3 legs ) and CASA state another in some video ( 45 degrees onto downwind etc )

If your ERSA does not state right hand circuit, then is the runway always a left hand circuit? Because in NZ, if it is only left hand, there will be nothing. And, you should not join right hand. Simple. But, if its right hand there will be an Arrow pointing out to the right. That’s what they usually only mean- Right Hand circuit-the arrows.

Thanks
fS12o0

[Dixondik]

What about the Overhead Rejoin?

Fly over the runway 500 ft above circuit height, make a call once overhead- ABC OVERHEAD DECENDING NON TRAFFIC SIDE 36- then descend non traffic side to circuit height to fly over up wind threshold and slotting into the mid down wind- ABC JOINS DOWNWIND FROM THE OVER HEAD 36-

this is one way ( commonly used ) in NZ of entering. Because, if no other traffic is around, how can you tell the wind direction, ok from smoke, etc. But, how can you tell what the most appropriate runway is to use. The WIND SOCK. That’s what we are all taught in NZ. If we joined the Runway at 45 degrees. Higher powers, would be upset!

From a commercial training point of view they try not to get you to fly the overhead join because time is money. From my experience, reliable resources include smoke, traffic, AWIS, forecast (bit iffy about that one). If you know where to look for the wind sock you can see it prior to join the circuit.

[av8trflying]

Bentleg

You say that the departing aircraft could turn left 45 deg on departure.

I can see your point, but at my particular aerodrome you couldnt do that because of that hill.

I think it is one of those areas where CASA would like you to do something and the AIP says something different.:ugh:

[Sue Ridgepipe]

I understand about larger aircraft finding it harder to turn than lighties but I was using 08 (Duty Runway cause of wind)
It might have been the "duty runway" for you but other considerations might mean other pilots select a different "duty runway".

[Kelly Slater]

Am I reading this correctly? Are instructors teaching that it is not allowable to join downwind? CASA's pretty picture shows the downwind joining position as being by mid field and the crosswind technique as being mid field at the completion of the turn onto downwind, that is to say, you turn somewhere near the upwind threshold so that you are established on downwind by half way down the runway. The radio call comes at the mid field position and that is where other traffic should then expect to see you.

[Lasiorhinus]

Believe it or not, no one is contradicting anyone.
AIP ENR 1.1 para 64.5 Circuit Entry
64.5.1 Entry to the circuit depends upon the direction of arrival and traffic
conditions. The recommended methods for entering the circuit
are as follows:
a. From the live side, arrive at the appropriate circuit altitude before
entering the circuit. Approach the circuit on a course 45° to
the downwind leg and join the circuit abeam the middle of the
runway; or
b. From the dead side, arrive at the appropriate circuit altitude before
entering the circuit. Turn crosswind between the departure
end of the runway and the middle of the runway. Give way to
aircraft established in the circuit and on the 45° entry to downwind.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

How can the AIP state one thing ( join 3 legs )
Don't think the AIP says that at all.
ENR 1.1 Para 64- Landing Manoeuvres
Can anyone come up with the "3 leg" reference??
(Thought this died in 2004)

Turn crosswind between the departure
end of the runway and the middle of the runway.
From my understanding, the idea of this is to keep the people joining with this method well inside of the traffic turning x-wind.

[FourBalls]

CAR 1988 166


(d) unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the
aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in
which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or
downwind leg; and
Note A circuit pattern has upwind, cross-wind, down-wind, base and final legs.


(3) refers to straight-in approaches
(4) refers to CASA approval to join base

C'mon people. It's not complicated despite the attempts by some to complicate it.:ugh:

[Towering Q]

FourBalls, you're right....it only becomes complicated when those Rotary types arrive on the scene.:eek:

[Atlas Shrugged]

In a CTAF for me it is "Communicate, Aviate, Navigate"


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Aviate is ALWAYS first!

[sms777]

Of course it is.....
I tried to emphasize the importance of communication in CTAF's

:ok:

[lk978]

A little off topic but I had a complaint from a resident about low flying aircraft at Wollongong.

this is the location just over the fence.

Laurel Ave, Albion Park Rail NSW 2527 - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Laurel+Ave,+Albion+Park+Rail+NSW+2527&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=35.608894,56.25&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FcB-8P0dsu78CA&split=0&ll=-34.573935,150.795937&spn=0.016043,0.027466&z=15&iwloc=addr)

[flysaucer1200]

So, what about over head rejoins???

[kabammmd]

i think that the problem in that occasion was that the connie never use 08 or 26 for size problem.....did you see how big is that thing?
how can you expect the pilot to join 08 only because 2 light aircraft has joined a different runway? i know ywol and i know that the connie fly downwind legs at 3 nm if not more from the aerodrome, so there is not conflict in that, just watch out for touch down.

[Jabawocky]

The connie was most likely at a 1500' circuit height. If so, you would have been joining at 1000' AGL, unless you were in something fast.

Does that stir up the pot a little?

J

[flog]

Anyone here learn to fly at YLIL recently? How were you taught to join the circuit?

I imagine it wasn't by overflying Sugarloaf at 500'agl and then dive bombing the pattern mid-downwind.

[QSK?]

I suspect Kickatinalong is referring specifically to an "extended" downwind join at non-controlled airports i.e joining downwind from outside the circuit area. For example, this happens quite regularly at Ayers Rock Airport (flights from the South East joining downwind for R13) and Bundaberg (flights joining downwind R14 from the South); just 2 examples I can think of.

Looking at all the Australian (and US) regulatory documents, as well as the NAS2C guidance material, it would appear that an "extended" downwind join is no longer an accepted procedure because, as Lasiorhinus has previously indicated, AIP refers only to a 45 deg downwind join or a mid-downwind join, both of which still facilitate regulatory compliance with the "3 legs of a circuit" requirement. The "extended downwind" join is also not depicted on any of the supporting circuit procedure diagrams for Australlia's non-controlled airports possibly because it is not considered by CASA to be an appropriate circuit joining point.

It is also interesting to note that Canadian AIP documentation specifically references extended downwind joins at non-controlled airports and permits them but only "...if no conflict exists". This would appear to support benleg's comment that:You could run into traffic making a 45 deg left turn at circuit height on departure.

Now the sad part is, despite my best efforts, no one inside CASA or the flight training industry is able to confirm whether extended downwind joins are permissable or not. If they are not permitted, then a massive industry re-education program may be required to stop this practice occurring because many pilots continue to engage in extended downwind joins at non-controlled airports.

What's everyone else's view?

[PlankBlender]

Note the AIP ENR 1.1.64 makes recommendations, so apart from the requirement in CAR 166 a pilot is pretty free to do whatever makes sense to him or her, and of course for everybody's safety use the push to talk button! :ok: