Smithy's wreckage found?

[DIVINE WIND]

Sir Charles Kingsford Smith's final resting place found, says film crew | National News | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25218600-421,00.html)

[Grogmonster]

That is really interesting news. I hope it is true as it was one of the great aviation mysteries. It will be great for the extended families to finally get some closure. Now all we need is for someone to find Amelia Erhart's final resting place to close the final chapter of the golden age of aviation.

[sixtiesrelic]

Amelia's resting place...
look at AE PROJECT (http://www.electranewbritain.com/)
David has answered all my doubts when I discussed it in depth.
He just needs a hundred grand to pay for a chopper for a Magnetometer Survey and there's a reasonable amount coming in but at sixty nine he's worried that time might beat him before there coffers are full.
Wouldn't it be nice to see the Aussies show the Yanks that THEY are right.

[Fantome]

to close the final chapter of the golden age of aviation.


No no no not while Rapides fly and clouds mass and youngsters ooh and ahh

http://www.google.com.au/images?q=tbn:Ib1PV3d4Je09fM::www.johnjohn.co.uk/compare-tigermothflights/photos/DH89A_DragonRapide_2.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.johnjohn.co.uk/compare-tigermothflights/photos/DH89A_DragonRapide_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.johnjohn.co.uk/compare-tigermothflights/html/dehavilland_photo_dh89a.html&h=315&w=520&sz=37&tbnid=Ib1PV3d4Je09fM::&tbnh=79&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddragon%2Brapide%2Bphoto&hl=en&usg=__UCKU6P-T21h0hpApSek4oqblw8Y=&ei=OiXESb2_LZmktQPi3oXlBg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1)

[Dick Smith]

Would be great if it really was the remains of the Lady Southern Cross. Unfortunately highly unlikely.

There is a lot of wreckage along that coast.

[bluesky300]

Dick, not sure if you know anything more about it, but is there any substance in the media suggestion that there are 1.5m triangles in the wing structure showing up?

[Dick Smith]

The problem is that lots of things have 1.5 m triangles ie roof trusses!

The film maker says he is 100% confident the faint sonar image is the plane.

It would be more believable if he said he was 1% confident.

See the ABC TV news tonight.

[LambOfGod]

We love you Smithy:ok:

[ZEEBEE]

He just needs a hundred grand to pay for a chopper for a Magnetometer Survey and there's a reasonable amount coming in but at sixty nine he's worried that time might beat him before there coffers are full.

Sorry SixtiesRelic, but it is extremely unlikely that a magnetometer fitted to a helicopter has ANY chance of detecting the small amount of ferrous material that most aircraft contain.

In fact, it's unlikely that such a system could detect an intact 747 in typical water depths let alone an aircraft that is more than likely corroded and fragmented.

SideScan sonar is really the only thing, but it's VERY slow and quite expensive.

Pity though.

[Arnold E]

It would be fantastic if it were true that Smithy's plane had been found. But alas, I think this is just another red herring. How good would it be to have one of the greatest mysteries of aviation solved?:(

[sixtiesrelic]

Er zeebee... read the article... again.
It's not under water, the soldiers crawled over the wreckage in the jungle.
After sixty plus years the wreck is probably under the branches, leaves and volcanic dust that have fallen.
It seems very strange that a twin engine very modern, metal aeroplane could have crashed pre-war and just be sitting in the jungle with no story of a search. As far as I know all the pre-war crashes were found and no all metal aircraft went missing.
I've read another theory of where Amelia landed up ... caught by the Japs. All the clues fit, but they are people's sightings of a thin white woman. It's quite believable...
BUT a corroded, unpainted wreck in the jungle in 1945???
I crawled over enough wrecks in 1970 to 73; Jap and Allied and they all had paint on the outside still. Can't remember if the Mission's Ju 34 at Alexishaven that was being built when it was hit, was painted or just corroded... wasn't interested. More interested in rising suns etc.
David Billings is a LAME and has found and investigated many wrecks in PNG while he worked there for Airniugini so he's very knowledgeable.
We won't know till whatever aircraft it was, is located again.
The crowd that does the magnetometer search said they would be able to locate engines up to sixty feet underground… they’re no where near that.

[VH-XXX]

Why the confusion over the un-painted wreck sixtiesrelic? The aircraft is not painted, it's bare metal. How can all metal crashes be accounted for when this aircraft is clearly still missing? Being captured by the Japanese is they were definitely there in 1939, only a historian could tell you that.

For those that are confused, Smithy's machine is / may be under water, whereas Amelia's aircraft is possibly in the Jungle.

[DIVINE WIND]

When I started this thread, I only had a few minutes to spare at work. Upon further examination, this guy sounds like a bit of a fraud.
I hope I am wrong.
Gotta go, two legs to go.

[sixtiesrelic]

I don't think the bloke's a fraud Devine Wind. He BELIEVES in his evidence... under water makes it pretty slim, but there were some very complete wrecks in the Pacific thirty years ago. A zero was pulled out of the sea near Rabaul given a "clean up" (no idea how thorough that was) and bunged up on a pole as a war memorial. I'm told it was taken down later and made, or is being made to flying condition.
There could be Smithy’s wreckage in the mud. Good luck to 'em
As for Amelia... XXX did you read the electranewbritain.com.au thing? That is where the unpainted metal comes in. For those who haven’t read it, the wartime aircraft were all painted in camouflage colours in PNG. This wreck was bare metal.
Even the newly rebuilt, rag, Avro 10, Faith in Australia was camoflaged in house paint for the evacuation of the women and children just before the Japs arrived.
When I mentioned crashes being accounted for, I was referring to pre-war crashes in PNG.
Naturally there are still plenty of wartime ones to be found,
I haven't heard any other theories about Amelia crashing in PNG.
I haven't delved deep into the theories of her demise either.
David Billings definitely has a believable theory with heaps of interesting assumptions that others haven’t come up with like, Lindy taught her how to get a very low fuel flow, running lean of peak. Much lower than the book figures the theorists use. Many pilots could do better than the book figures.
Amelia wrote about her low fuel consumption in a book about some of her trans USA flights.
I new an old WW2 bomber pilot who used lean of peak and descended at less than fifty feet a minute and got home with more fuel than the others often… yes! much later I wondered about formations etc, but he’s dead now so I can’t ask him.
Sorry for the confusion

[ZEEBEE]

The crowd that does the magnetometer search said they would be able to locate engines up to sixty feet underground… they’re no where near that.

Sorry Sixtiesrelic

I didn't read the article, I was going on the earlier reports of her aircraft going into the briny.

Nevertheless, I stand by my comments regarding the detection threshold of aircraft parts etc.

Sixty feet MAY, MAY be possible from the ground if there's not much residual magnetic material close by, but there is NO way that a helicopter borne system flying over jungle would detect the steel contained in the engines unless the mag detector could be flown VERY near the surface. (not possible due to the height of the jungle)
I wish it were otherwise.
I worked with the "worldwide geophysical company" mentioned in the article and I know that they do NOT have the technology required.
They certainly aren't rushing in to subsidise the operation for that very reason.
Some years ago, we conducted (and subsidised) a search for the Midget Japanese submarine in the vicinity of Sydney because we knew that an airborne mag system could potentially detect the mass of metal.
It didn't because we were all looking in the wrong place.
In this case it's a double problem;
not being sure of the site, and lacking confidence in the technology available.

Smithy's aircraft is even more difficult to detect, but at least side scan sonar is less ambiguous than a magnetometer in already high gradient anomalous areas such as East New Britain.

[Brian Abraham]

The aircraft was of all timber construction (save for the engine :suspect:) so what chance the airframe having survived all these years, even if buried in mud as they claim.

[ZEEBEE]

The aircraft was of all timber construction (save for the engine ) so what chance the airframe having survived all these years, even if buried in mud as they claim.

Brian...In placid waters, not much chance.
In the sort of waters in question, it would be most surprising if ANYTHING remained after this time.

We live in hope though.

[Arnold E]

So let me get this right, Smithy's aircraft was wood except for the engine?

[FourBalls]

Been a while since I read his biography (ToweringQ - you still got it?) but didn't the Lady Southhern Cross have a massive piece of lead bolted to the engine firewall to fix the aft CofG created by the extra fuel tanks aft? Or was that one of Smithy's earlier aircraft?:hmm:

[VH-XXX]

Timber will and can last a very long time under the ocean, particularly in mud. Don't forget all the timber ships that are often discovered a couple of centuries later that are practically in tact.

[Fantome]

How, exactly, do these 1.5 metre triangles relate to the Altair's airframe?

[sixtiesrelic]

I'll pass that on Zeebee.
The man wholl collect the money had a different story.

[ZEEBEE]

Sixtiesrelic wrote

The man wholl collect the money had a different story.

No doubt.

[ZEEBEE]

Timber will and can last a very long time under the ocean, particularly in mud. Don't forget all the timber ships that are often discovered a couple of centuries later that are practically in tact.

True VH-XXX, but those ships were MADE to last in the water.

Not much good making a ship out of "soluble" wood.

Unfortunately aircraft are made from woods that are chosen for their lightness and the wood bulk is kept to a minimum.
They're often laminated and held together with glues that are not all that water resistant, so once the glue goes, the structure does too.

Nevertheless, strange things do happen, and something that should have rotten away remains intact.
Sometimes the opposite happens and structures disappear more quickly yhan envisaged.

It HAS been a long time.

[Fris B. Fairing]

fantome

How, exactly, do these 1.5 metre triangles relate to the Altair's airframe?

The truss type wing ribs appear as three triangles but 1.5m seems too big for this. I've not been able to identify "triangles" anywhere else on the airframe. One has to wonder about the likelihood of a wooden wing rib retaining its form after a crash and then 74 years in the water. Having said that, I want to believe it's true.

Rgds

[bourke27]

Ah finally found a high res version on the scan, he really has found it.

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/johnbourke27/Snap3.jpg?t=1237850190

[sixtiesrelic]

For something slightly different...
I was given a copy of a 1933 home movie yesrterday, and there are some interesting historical snippets on it.
Kingsford Smith test flying the Southern Cross after she's come out of a hangar.
The Lady Southern Cross on a barge , I suspect being moved to Mascot and a test flight in her before the fateful flight.
A bunch of aircraft around airports ( Haven't digested this lot properly to ascertain just where… one is VH-UIZ a Ryan Brougham with New England Airways.
A Woodcock… yes the only one! Two Civa autogyros, Dh Hummingbird, Short Scion the Southern Cross and “Cloud” and “Faith in Australia” together. A DC-2 (ANA? Or Airlines of Australia?) Aircraft ready for some air race… (probably will find out which one from regos and race numbers when I have time)
Over an hour of the movie is a flight in a Westland Widgeon that I think belongs to Dick Smith now, flying up to New Guinea and the photographer gets many rides in “the tin sheds that flew”. He got some very interesting stuff that we’ve read about like weighing the tail wheel of the Fords and Junker G31s (Forerunner to the old ju52s) at Lae to get the balance of the load right when the old steam crane bopped gigantic bits of machinery through the 11 X 6 foot hole in the tops of the aircraft.
Some good footage of gold dredges working.
Magic stuff for history buffs.
Send me a PM if you’re interested in my posting you a copy… this stuff needs to be spread around so identification of people can be made and history not lost.
The quality is very poor, but is balanced out by the content.

[Murray Cod]

I also have worked for a "multinational survey company which uses magnetometers.
Our crew had the unfortunate job of trying to locate an aircraft that went into the sea near cairns years ago.
The survey lines were flown quite low and dense and nothing was found.
Not a big enough magnetic signature.
MC

[bourke27]

Jumping back to the Mr lay thing, I did some digging and found this report into the min sub thing http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/docs/ho_survey_midget_sub.pdf

They basically say his evidence was bogus, for example he conveniently ignored evidence of the wire and pretended it was consistent, when any decent viewing would tell you it absolutely wasn't and that was his big proof...just like these equilateral triangles... exactly the same.

look at page 5-6

"The Heritage Office had initial concerns over Animax’s identification of the item as being c.1930s era cabling from the internal fit-out of a Japanese submarine. This concern was based on the lack of any rigorous research into midget submarine cabling,"

"The existence of this reinforcing was noted by the NSW Heritage Office, but not previously identified by the filmmakers. It is of critical importance as the existence of reinforcing wires suggests the use of the cable for external purposes."

Lay had claimed that the wiring was the exact type used inside those subs and not used for anything else in Australia back then. Seems now that was a flat-out lie and Heritage caught him on it. I hope the media jump on him soon before it goes too far.