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englishal
20th Mar 2009, 09:36
When going to the Channel Islands, I send the GAR to Special Branch and Customs (12hrs in advance of way out and return due to private airfield).

When going to an EU state, it is only required to sent the GAR to Customs 4 hours before arrival back in the UK.

Is there are requirement to send a GAR to immigration under any circumstances? Our "immigration contact" numbers listed on the GAR form are dead....

Thanks

IO540
20th Mar 2009, 09:59
I don't know the answer, Englishal, but I always fax mine to all three :)

Many of the fax numbers on the official form are duff but The Plod couldn't care less. I tend to fax it to some other number instead, until I find one that works, and let them sort it out.

englishal
20th Mar 2009, 10:24
Thanks....I send mine by email - It'd be handy if Immigration have an email address then I could just copy all three in one go....Do you have any immigration contact numbers / addresses / websites by any chance?

Cheers

PS Re AFPEx and Flight planning top tip - to receive a copy of the FP youself, add your AFPEx address in one of the address boxes at the top ;)

IO540
20th Mar 2009, 11:31
AFPEx and Flight planning top tip - to receive a copy of the FP youself, add your AFPEx address in one of the address boxes at the top

I am advised by the staff at Swanwick that you absolutely should not do this, because it triggers an alarm at their end; this is to prevent messages looping back indefinitely in some circumstances.

The only way to check that a VFR flight plan has been transmitted is to look in your Outbox, and it should be there. That's the way VFR flight plans are... there is no way to know (short of a phone call etc) anybody has seen it or even got it.

englishal
20th Mar 2009, 13:53
oops..... :O

mightynimbus
25th Mar 2009, 15:29
This all relates to the fact that the UK did not sign up to the Schengen agreement, essentially the border controls that were supposed to dissapear as part of our membership of the EU didn't, and as a consequence, if you leave the UK FIR you must flight plan out, complete Schengen formalities at your remote destination (ie Land at a customs capable airfield at first landing outside UK FIR)and then with at least 12 hours notice inform the UK authorities about your return time and return airfield.This is so that a couple of overweight plods in cheap Matalan suits driving a really rubbish car can come along and rummage through your stuff Its a job I suppose!!

Spotthedog
1st Apr 2009, 11:20
There are rumours that a fully online GAR form is coming soon. Has anybody heard when this might be?

I would hope that when this does happen, pressing the submit button will automatically send the form to all the right agencies without us pondering about dead fax numbers and the seriously conflicting advice we get when trying to find out who needs the GAR form for which type of flight (EU / CTA), how many hours notice etc etc.

It might also be good if the form was able to store the basic details.

I'm just about to try out the AFPEx (online flight plan submission) system for the first time next week having received my passwords and complex passphrase etc. Apart from the rather long time this thing takes to download each time you log in, has anyone had any problems using it so far? It seems like a really helpful step forward on the face of it.

gasax
1st Apr 2009, 12:48
We recently had a visit from Special Branch. Two immaculately dressed young men, intelligent, personable and informed! They arrived in the deputy chief constable's 5 series!

Pleasantries were exchanged and I explained the 'unnotified aircraft movement' they had just witnessed.

Sweetness and light compared with the Customs and Excise 'Intelligence' officer.......

rans6andrew
1st Apr 2009, 13:02
is it my imagination or is the whole thing becoming un-workable? Last time we were in France we became weathered in at Abbeville for a few days. When we did eventually leave, to fly to Headcorn, it was at a few minutes notice. Our weather guru was watching the metars and forecast for the south UK and he said 'if we go in the next twenty mins we should get through a gap in the fronts around Dover before it closes up again' so we did. He was spot on. We filed our flight plans, activated them by radio as we passed Le Touquet and coasted out near Cap GN.

' went into torrential rain near to Ashford and landed in 'sod tout' visibility at Headcorn. Not a lot of chance to give them 12 hours notice by GAR. The Rans is not an 'All Weather Fighter' and we cannot run to a timetable. The joys of microlighting.....

We had the man from Cust and Imig come to our club to do a presentation on this subject. When I put our circumstances to him he was able to shrug his shoulders but could not offer a workable solution.

Rans6Andrew.

hoodie
1st Apr 2009, 13:39
The notification period from France to a GAA airfield like Headcorn (or even a farmstrip) is 4 hours, not 12; but otherwise I take your point.

igarratt
30th May 2009, 11:57
sorry if this is off topic or wrong place please move if needed

I am after a very simple answer to what i thought would be a simple question but everything i read seems to complicate matters!

first ga flight out of country to IOM.
Just trying to figure out what forms and to who with what notice, I've read so many post I'm dizzy
I am fine with flight plans and have the GAR form but cant figure out whom to send it to, fax numbers and with what notice.

I have special branch, customs and immigration on my list, departing and returning from/to designated airport (Liverpool)

cant work out if I need to do all 3 for outbound AND inbound and what notice

Whom must I inform if I am going to be late ?

Please I'm sure someone must have done this many times and is simple once it's put into basic form or 'fill in x and send to 0870 999 000 two hrs before' and 'before you come back...'

Many thanks for any info :ugh:

holyflyer
30th May 2009, 13:37
There are rumours that a fully online GAR form is coming soon

Yep its on the way. The new GAR pdf is stage one. By end of 2010 it will be a form to fill in and complete whilst online with drop down menus. Pressing the submit button will automatically send it to the relevant UK police force and UK Borders. That's the sales pitch. It will of course be stored and over time a profile of the pilot/plane will be built up that can be examined by said authorities.

LH2
30th May 2009, 14:16
Just out of curiosity, are foreign registered planes / foreign pilots / foreign-licenced pilots, or any combination thereof, expected to jump through those same hoops?

IO540
30th May 2009, 14:47
For UK mainland to IOM, you fax the GAR to Special Branch (police) only. Customs/Immigration not involved - AIUI.

Just out of curiosity, are foreign registered planes / foreign pilots / foreign-licenced pilots, or any combination thereof, expected to jump through those same hoops?

Yes.

However, a "genuine foreigner" would probably fly to the IOM (or Ireland - same scenario) direct from some country other than the UK, so would be subject to the IOM's own notification requirements, which are a bit more reasonable than those of the UK mainland police.

The "better funded" pilots tend to deal purely via handling agents and the agent takes care of all this crap for you. He needs to know, for everyone aboard, the name address passport #, which I think he needs to know anyway.

englishal
30th May 2009, 17:48
What I do now for every flight abroad to cover my arse, is just email off the GAR to NCU and the local plod. No response received or required, and just go.

IO540
30th May 2009, 21:42
In the case of a flight to the CI/Ireland/ION, the Plod do however normally phone you, often in the middle of the night, with a "permission number".

They don't need to give a "permission" but they don't know the law.

BackPacker
30th May 2009, 23:24
Just out of curiosity, are foreign registered planes / foreign pilots / foreign-licenced pilots, or any combination thereof, expected to jump through those same hoops?

LH2, what you need to understand is that with international flights you are normally expected to fly from a customs/immigration airport to a customs/immigration airport. At these airports your passports are checked, you have the ability to declare goods etc. This is regardless of the registration of your plane, passport or license.

The GAR form is a unique UK thing: By filling it in and faxing it to the proper authorities with sufficient prior notice (all depending on where you are coming from/going to; the details are on the back of the form) you can essentially fly from any UK airfield to foreign, or from foreign to any UK airfield. Obviously only if you have no goods to declare, and subject to a few other reasonable restrictions.

So the GAR form, despite the challenge of figuring out where and when to fax it to, is designed to make things simpler, not more complicated. And in fact, it can be very simple: just phone up the UK airfield involved (usually PPR anyway), tell them the GAR form is on the way to them via fax, and ask them to forward it to the proper authorities for their field.

And yes, the GAR form and its associated liberties can be used by foreign registrations, passports and license holders too.

At the other end of your trip, usually mainland Europe, Ireland or some small island like Jersey or IOM, your first or last port of call should still be a customs airfield. I don't know of any GAR-form-like mechanisms within Europe or Ireland.

And of course, once you're inside the EU/Schengen region, you're free to fly from any field to another. (Countries that are in the Schengen region but not in the EU, or vice versa, are a slightly more complicated matter.)

dublinpilot
1st Jun 2009, 19:52
In the case of a flight to the CI/Ireland/ION, the Plod do however normally phone you, often in the middle of the night, with a "permission number".


Just to point out that this isn't uniform across police forces. Many seem to just ignore the fax (or probably correctly realise that you've met your obligations and don't need any permission number).

So if you don't get a phone call with a permission number, don't be too worried about that.

I've never received such a call, but have come across one force (North Wales) who for some reason expected me to call them looking for the number!

And in fact, it can be very simple: just phone up the UK airfield involved (usually PPR anyway), tell them the GAR form is on the way to them via fax, and ask them to forward it to the proper authorities for their field.

This is not something that I would do. The obligation to notify your flight rests with you, not the airport.

If someone forgets to do it, or the airport claims they never received your fax (eg. machine out of paper, and someone stupidly resets the memory first instead of checking the paper) then it's you that comes into question.

Saying that you faxed it to the airport, won't really cut any ice with the authorities, because a) the airport may deny ever receiving it, and b) it's your obligation.

Having had the "please call special branch" call given to me by ground ops on arrival, and then received a lecture for not notifying my flight, I was very happy to be able to politely inform SB, that not only had I notified my flight within the proper time scales, but I also had a fax confirmation page (with me) that could prove that they received it.

If you fly regularly with these flights, then it's a matter of "when" you get questioned by SB rather than "if", even though you've done everything correct. I always have my fax confirmation page with me now.

dp

ANO-ther
12th Aug 2010, 12:18
If you're flying from/to anywhere in Dorset i.e. Bournemouth, there's already an online working GAR that's approved by the authorities.

Link here: Airtime Charters - Complete ALL details as with paper GAR then click SUBMIT GAR FORM at the bottom of the page - CAUTION - This form is for DORSET County use ONLY | Airtime Charters (http://www.airtimecharters.co.uk/site/online-gar.html)

I've been using it for a couple of months now without any problems. I understand it's likely to be rolled out to accomodate the whole country soon :D

On a separate issue, IO540 - you can check your AFPEX flight plan has gone into the system ok. As you say, you should not put your own address in but once it has been sent you can do an RQP (request flight plan), just enter the callsign, departure aerodrome and destination and the AFPEX system will return the registered flight plan to you (assuming it IS in the system).

SunnyDayInWiltshire
11th Mar 2011, 16:30
Does anyone know if the online GAR form described above will be rolled out across the UK this year - the earlier post in this thread suggested end 2010 as the timeframe?

Clearly this would make everyone's life a little easier for foreign trips this season.

Abbeville
11th Jul 2011, 11:20
Any updates on this.

Seem to be drawing a blank on Google.

A

BackPacker
11th Jul 2011, 11:35
I happen to be researching the same topic myself right now for a flight to the UK this weekend.

So far all I've seen is that you can mail it to the NCU and it *seems* (but I'm not 100% convinced) that they forward it to, at least, all required customs and immigration services, but not special branch or police. But the information is, as usual, very scetchy and written from the NCU/HMRC perspective only.

Here's the most useful link I have found so far:

UK Border Agency | Home Page (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/?requestType=form&view=Search+results&simpleOrAdvanced=simple&page=1&contentType=All&searchTerm=General+Aviation&Submit=Go)

But any and all information to make my life easier is appreciated. (I don't have a fax machine...!:sad:)

patowalker
11th Jul 2011, 12:06
I have an email from RIS Ops - Transport Intelligence Air -General Aviation at HMRC, which reads in part " If you Email/fax the GAR to the HMRC NCU it should automatically copy to UKIS."

UKIS is now the Border Agency.

Edited to add: Special Branch and Police are only involved with flights within the Common Travel Area (Great Britain, Northern Ireland and/or Eire, Isle of Man and Channel Islands).

BackPacker
11th Jul 2011, 12:19
Yep. Still doesn't include police or special branch though.

patowalker
11th Jul 2011, 12:28
See edit to my previous message. No need to notify Special Branch or Police if you are coming from the Netherlands.

dublinpilot
11th Jul 2011, 13:07
You have it correct (Customs should notifiy the Border Agency).

However if you read the GAR instructions it says:

All flights notified for Customs & Immigration purposes should be sent to:
NCU (National Co-Ordination Unit) – Fax 01708 862521 (overseas; +44 1708 862521) or 0870 240 3738; email [email protected] (please put GAR, registration
and airfield in the subject of the email) (Some local offices may still require separate notification in addition to the above)

My Bold/Underline. So apparently you are not guaranteed that it will go to the Border Agency. When doing a flight from France to the UK last year, I contacted Customs to find out if the arrival airport that I was going to use, was in an area that required seperate notification to the border agency, and emails went up and down through customs, and nobody was able to tell me.

Eventually I got a contact for the local border agency that I could contact to see if they wanted seperate notification.

They really ought to list the ones that need seperate notification on the GAR form itself, with their contact details.

Victorian
11th Jul 2011, 13:18
This is not something that I would do. The obligation to notify your flight rests with you, not the airport.


Dublinpilot, that's perfectly true. But what if you fly from/to a 'concession' airport? (Now known I believe as a Certificate of Agreement aerodrome) My experience is that they insist you inform them with the Garjan form, not SB etc. directly. Do people on here back up notification to concession airports with separate copies to SB? Do any concession airports respond with acknowledgements, permission numbers, etc.?

I once had a concession airport (inbound at 10 miles) claim "they could not find my paperwork", persuading me to land at a customs airport (£100 landing/handling) instead. Now, I carry copies of the Garjan form with me as submitted to the concession airport and if the same thing happened, would land anyway and sort it out on the ground.

I also follow up with a phone call to verify they've got it. Belt n' braces but an unexpected diversion to a big expensive place at the end of a long flight in average weather when almost home is character forming and wallet depleting.

patowalker
11th Jul 2011, 14:54
You have it correct (Customs should notifiy the Border Agency).

However if you read the GAR instructions it says:

Quote:
All flights notified for Customs & Immigration purposes should be sent to:
NCU (National Co-Ordination Unit) – Fax 01708 862521 (overseas; +44 1708 862521) or 0870 240 3738; email [email protected] (%6e%63%75%40%68%6d%72%63%2e%67%73%69%2e%67%6f%76%2e%75%6b) (please put GAR, registration and airfield in the subject of the email) (Some local offices may still require separate notification in addition to the above)

"Some local offices" in this context can only mean some local Customs offices, as it is HMRC that is giving the instructions.

If I send an email to the National Co-Ordination Office, I expect them to co-ordinate and I don't ask if I need to inform anybody else. All I do is keep a copy of the email.

I depart from and return to one of the "Other Airfields", and have yet to meet a Customs or Border Agency officer.

140KIAS
11th Jul 2011, 15:44
This used to hurt my head so much everytime I planned a flight involving a GAR. To avoid relearning in advance of each infrequent trip I produced the following in an attempt to make it seem simple. Its probably wrong in some counts so use it at your peril.

https://picasaweb.google.com/GWIFEC182/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPfosOr_1Na0kwE&pli=1&gsessionid=KxBoBbPzsVEuR0pE2hWQwg#5628120496803976786

dublinpilot
11th Jul 2011, 16:46
Dublinpilot, that's perfectly true. But what if you fly from/to a 'concession' airport? (Now known I believe as a Certificate of Agreement aerodrome) My experience is that they insist you inform them with the Garjan form, not SB etc. directly. Do people on here back up notification to concession airports with separate copies to SB? Do any concession airports respond with acknowledgements, permission numbers, etc.?


I've been asked by some airports to send it to them (perhaps they were concession airports, I can't remember).

In some cases I'd already submitted the paperwork, and the airport simply asked me to send them a copy. In other cases I hadn't already submitted, but told them that I would submit it myself, and would send them a copy.

I've been met by Special Branch three time, only one of which was a pleasant experience. The first one I'd cocked up (though hadn't realised it at the time...I'd sent the GAR to the wrong police force). The second occasion was a pleasent experience, and the third occasion the police had cocked up.

It was clear to me that the third occasion was also going to be a very unpleasent experience for me, but fortunately I had brought a copy of the fax with me, together with the confirmation page, so it turned out to be a somewhat unpleasent experience for the police. But unless I had had the evidence with me, to prove that I'd complied, it would have been a very unpleasent experience. This is why I would never leave it up to an airport operator to do on my behalf; a fax to an airport operator simply wouldn't have cut ice with the police when they were making it very clear that it was my responsibility.

dp

neilgeddes
11th Jul 2011, 16:54
As a COA airfield Redhill has this sensible advice Customs & Excise - Redhill Aerodrome (http://www.redhillaerodrome.com/index.php/pilot-information/hmrc)

Normal practise seems to be to email or fax one's flight plans and GAR to ATC and they do the rest. Seems to work fine! :) (Or use AFPEx for the flight plans and just send ATC the GAR.)

dublinpilot
11th Jul 2011, 17:42
I see Redhill like to make up some of their own laws too ;)

At least 24 hours prior notice is required for flights operating Tuesday – Friday. For flights operating on Saturday, Sunday or Monday notification must be given by 1600 hours on Friday.


12 hours notice is all that is required by the Terrorism Act

PompeyPaul
11th Jul 2011, 22:51
...the mind bending physics of quantum mechanics pales into insignificance compared to "where do I fax the gar form to?"

Let's face it, even the authorities don't know, otherwise they'd provide working numbers on the back. I've even contacted my local police station to get an answer. They acted like anybody who emailed the police to find out where to fax the gar form probably isn't a terrorist and thus were totally disinterested and only answered 1 of the 5 questions in the email.

I just hand it to the tower now and they do something magic with it.

It really is like something from the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy.

Contacttower
12th Jul 2011, 09:47
The two police forces for Common Travel Area related GAR forms I've dealt with seem to take a passing interest in them, both actually prefer you to email it to them. The copy of the GAR instructions completion instructions I have indicates which police forces accept them by email but doesn't actually specify the email addresses themselves...so I guess one has to call to get them.

Hampshire Police is [email protected] for anyone who is wondering...

I got a gentle telling off earlier this year from Tayside Police when I forgot to send one for a flight from Ireland to Dundee.

Customs I think it just disappears into the ether...I have never heard anything from them and no one has ever come to meet the plane when arriving back in the UK at a non-customs airport.

BackPacker
12th Jul 2011, 10:20
I'm smelling a business opportunity here...:E

How much would you be willing to pay (via a Paypal "donate" scheme or something like that) for a web interface that allows you to fill in all data via convenient HTML fields, then creates the GAR form for you (PDF, so you can print it and take it with you), figures out where to mail the form to, mails the form to all relevant authorities and gives you a printable (again, PDF) confirmation page of all this?

I'm thinking along the lines of between 1 and 2.5 euros per GAR form processed.

Anybody any idea how many GAR forms are sent annually?

hoodie
12th Jul 2011, 10:27
Anybody any idea how many GAR forms are sent annually?

About 75% of those that should be... :E

patowalker
12th Jul 2011, 12:27
"Honest Officer, I did instruct BackPacker to send it to you. He is usually quite reliable." ;)

chevvron
12th Jul 2011, 15:27
If you're travelling via Fairoaks, the atsu there will do all the work if you fax or e-mail the GAR.
Fax is 01276 856898 e-mail '[email protected]' and it will be sent to all the relevant authorities.
The airport is required to hold a copy of the GAR, hence the reason most airfields say to fax it to them.

BackPacker
12th Jul 2011, 15:58
The airport is required to hold a copy of the GAR

Why?

Fairoaks is a COA airfield and there may be bits in their agreement that require them to hold onto GAR forms for flights to/from non-EU countries. "Agreements vary and details should be sought from the Airport Operator".

But for flights to/from EU countries I can't find any requirement to send things to them.

(Although I agree that it is very convenient to send the fax to them and let them sort it out.)

chevvron
12th Jul 2011, 16:44
Although UKBA don't turn up for every flight, they do at random especially if a flight from any country EU or not is carrying non - EU passport holders where a visa needs to be issued, hence there is a requirement (probably UK only) that GARs must be kept for 30 days.

patowalker
12th Jul 2011, 18:31
I have never sent a copy of to Headcorn or to the "Other Airfield" where the aircraft is based. No fax or email there.

Contacttower
12th Jul 2011, 19:45
The airport is required to hold a copy of the GAR, hence the reason most airfields say to fax it to them.

Where is that written down? I have to say I've never heard of that and during discussions with police in Tayside (that's Perth/Dundee area for those who don't know) they said just to email it to them direct, they didn't mention any requirement for the airfield to have it.

martello
23rd Jul 2011, 22:55
in the interests of correcting any speculation......
a lot of work has already been done on online forms - I've been doing (under aopa auspices) this with UKBA - it was hoped to have a complete online submission by this summer but there are some delays in Home Office IT. There is a test website already functioning to roll out firstly on AOPA's site which will be free to all comers -other associations may follow suit with their own similar portals. The trial version is already passing GARS and validating them. There are also an iPhone and an Android App doing the same thing, just awaiting final tweaking. We await some further meetings with UKBA and it is hoped all this functionality will all be launched in the next month - sadly a little late for the season but there is further work to do and it is felt better to let the system bed in before the Olympic year. I speak as a private volunteer who has done all of the work - it is in UKBA's hands whether they launch now with a preliminary version or not. We should know shortly. The plan was to incorporate the police at a later date, in any case the aim is to take the guess work out of who to send it to, from the pilot's point of view. This it does successfully now - it is also a much speedier process.

Fokkerwokker
24th Jul 2011, 07:58
Martello

Thank you for that interesting update.

FW

DaveW
24th Jul 2011, 10:35
I speak as a private volunteer who has done all of the work

:D and a heart-felt thank you for that work, martello.

The iPhone and Android apps will be particularly handy, but even without them this will be a great step forwards.

dublinpilot
24th Jul 2011, 20:30
Hi Martello,

Thanks for your work! It will be great to have such a system.

Presumably it will also give some form of confirmation so that you can prove you've made the required submission.

I hope you can get the police onboard soon too. Trying to figure out which police force to send it to is often the biggest problem for me!

dp

martello
28th Jul 2011, 17:41
Tak for tak or thanks for thanks as the scandinavians say. Yes the apps and even the website portals (which are basic) will send a confirmation email. The delay is in linking to the Home Office secure servers, but I have an interim solution using just email. As of today we await the decision of the 'joint approvals committee' If that goes in favour in a week or two then the AOPA subsite will be open to the public, I will have a demo of smartphone apps on "You tube" and they will probably be on the Market or iphone store by Sept ish. The smartphone apps are a big timesaver as you can store all the details of pax. They also allow you to send cancellations and amendments and relate these to the previously sent GAR. All versions recognise if it is a CTA trip and prompt for a Police email. I hope to incorporate this as an automatic facility later but I have to go at the pace of the Home Office.I stress that as yet no negotiations have taken place with the police and this is a UKBA(and me:-)) initiative.Will keep all posted - If anyone has an Android 2.1 or better phone and would like to trial the app please pmail me -trial can be used live/in earnest depending on your UKBA field office - (iPhone volunteer list already full !!)

martello
20th Sep 2011, 15:59
Just an update as promised on the status of a Web based GAR submission.
As reported here and elsewhere the Home Office have had a change of contractor on the eBorders project. Whilst this is not the direct cause, there is some significant delay in implementing an interface to the eBorders secure servers. We have been told we cannot now go live (as was expected in August) with the AOPA web portal nor with the smartphone apps - which we had in an interim form without the relevant interface but with emails connecting to various required receivers. Various project activities now have to take place with ominous sounding names like 'risk assessment' 'business case'. When the interface is ready a consultation will take place. So my estimate is that this will not now see the light of day until spring next year.
Meanwhile the Android app is still available for free on the android market (or at least I will post a new version in the next two weeks) if anyone wants to play with it and send me feedback. This will have some new and useful WX charts including cloud tops. It will be fully functional in terms of sending a GAR via email though it currently marks the GAR as a 'test'. In limited areas we may succeed in having local trials of this interim solution for real - if you wish to take part pmail me

As for the complete solution think next summer.

JM

martello
20th Sep 2011, 16:00
oh forgot to mention - specially for DublinPilot -:-) there will be an ability to import a PFMS flight Plan

Nibbler
22nd Nov 2011, 11:29
This is not me having a pop at anyone, more perhaps the way our society seems to operate...

In one week I managed to secure the approval of all the relevant authorities in Dorset to accept GARs via email from our website - the same amount of time it took to write the software and launch the service. It is available via mobile, has anti spam and has been running for over a year now. The service is free, no advertising, uncomplicated and works perfectly 100% of the time without a single complaint from the users or the authorities (so far!).

The same could be done for any region prepared to accept GARs via email. This is usually nothing more a simple negotiation with the local man in charge of each agency. The service could operate on a white site (non-business or unaffiliated) with ease.

Price to the authorities - Free
Price to users - Free

So what happens instead? It makes you wonder and I guess there is plenty of time for that!

IO540
22nd Nov 2011, 13:28
What does/did happen instead?

Where is your site? This would amount to substantial progress.

Nibbler
22nd Nov 2011, 14:57
IO540 strangely enough it was mentioned by someone else who found it, in a post on the first page of this topic, but I am more than happy to include it again: Airtime Charters - Complete ALL details as you would with a paper GAR then click SUBMIT GAR FORM at the bottom of the page | Airtime Charters (http://www.airtimecharters.co.uk/site/online-gar.html)

Although an IT/Web developer myself (yes I hear the cries of traitor!) I do appreciate the need for a simple online GAR submission form that does just that.

IO540
22nd Nov 2011, 15:20
OK; I now recall seeing it originally but as it mentioned Dorset-only I would have ignored it.

Are you saying it is now all-UK, or are you saying that you could not get permission from the remaining UK areas?

Sorry if I have misunderstood your slightly cryptic post :)

Also, I am not sure why a web developer should be a traitor :) Good specimens of those are most useful :) And if you know how to set up VPNs, that's a bonus :)

Nibbler
22nd Nov 2011, 16:19
I came from an IT / Sever / Networking background before I ditched the stress for web development, VPN is a familiar tool.

Perhaps I am becoming cynical but I think software these days tries to be a bit too smart for its own good, making it cost more, take longer to develop and is less usable.

As for the online GAR. It could easily be made available in the regions happy to accept it via email. I'd like to expand into other Counties and would probably have tried to do so if I ever flew out from anywhere other than Dorset. I'd even put it on a non-branded website if other Counties came on board. The key is to find a champion in each County to take the time to negotiate with the local authorities.

The negotiation part sounds a tough one but the reality is most agencies already accept GARs via email, usually leaving just the one agency to be convinced. We did this in Dorset by replicating the content of the official form visually but in particular ensuring the wording was exact, that made them happy.

Selling points to the agencies were - no more failed faxes, faxes sent to the wrong number, unreadable print outs, unreadable hand writing and missing information (due to the *required fields on the form).

The one we use for Dorset is clear evidence the concept and functionality are sound.

All I need to know the relevant email addresses and the County - job done (in a matter of days).

3 issues came up. First was the initial shock at the local office who (almost predictably) were not expecting it because they were not told about it. You can't control this but worth mentioning it when speaking to agency contacts. The other was to give the agencies a way to update their GAR email address, which was easy to fix. Finally commitment to feedback 1 - to ensure problems are resolved should they happen 2 - if the GAR form is updated.

That's it really, happy to answer any other questions.

BackPacker
23rd Nov 2011, 00:47
Not sure if this has appeared here earlier, but I think various people had in the past proposed knocking up a website where one would enter the details of the flight, and it would advise the correct authorities.

Actually a while ago I spent a few hours writing just that. An HTML form/CGI script combo (plain HTML so usable from your iPad/Android as well) which would ask the required information, use the ICAO identifiers of the airfields involved to figure out where to send the info to, and fill in the (official) GAR PDF with the required information.

It would then e-mail the GAR form to the proper authorities, with CC or BCC to the submitter. (And would notify you of any authorities that would not accept e-mail, so you can fax the form yourself to those.)

I abandoned the project at the stage where I would need to fill (and maintain) the database of e-mail addresses, and where I had to implement a PayPal "volunteer donation" scheme to make a little money to pay for the development/maintenance time, server and bandwidth. (I figured that if 10% of the users would donate 1 UKP per GAR form sent, I would already break even.)

The negotiation part sounds a tough one but the reality is most agencies already accept GARs via email, usually leaving just the one agency to be convinced. We did this in Dorset by replicating the content of the official form visually but in particular ensuring the wording was exact, that made them happy.

My script uses perl and the PDF::API2 to take an official empty PDF GAR form, and place the data fields exactly where they need to go. So the agencies receive an actual PDF GAR form, not an almost-like-a-GAR-form-email. And that PDF is obviously sent as an attachment.

I'd be happy to donate the code that I wrote for this to you if you're interested, Nibbler. It might make your negotiations easier.

(Edited: PPRuNe at it again. This was submitted at 11:00, *after* the post of IO540 which appears below.)

BackPacker
23rd Nov 2011, 05:49
Nibbler, PM sent.

(Edited: Once again: Sent at 16:00 but the time got mangled by PPRuNe.)

IO540
23rd Nov 2011, 07:42
Not sure if this has appeared here earlier, but I think various people had in the past proposed knocking up a website where one would enter the details of the flight, and it would advise the correct authorities.

Some of these were contactable only by fax (still the case IIRC for most of Special Branch) so such a website would have involved a prepay account to finance the fax costs.

If one can do all notifications by email, the need for prepay disappears.

It is then also incidentally less important to be correctly selective on "over-notifying" e.g. some pilots already send the GAR to all 3 services for every foreign flight, using a batch script ;)

A nice feature would be to store personal details for recalling on repeat flights but that gets you hassles with the DPA :)

My recollection was that the principal issue which would remain is a liability for a failure to deliver the notification. This is still present if you use email, but I suppose one could circumvent that adequately by ensuring the email was apparently delivered (which is easy), BCCing it to yourself (the site owner) and then emailing a copy of the BCCs (with headers & all) to the filing pilot. You also have to hope that no force has silly spam filters...

The problem is that Special Branch in particular, as I know too well, can get exceedingly anal about this. On one occassion their fax was not working (no paper?) so I faxed the GAR to a neighbouring force, and got a 4am call giving me a bollocking; the officer was completely uninterested in their duff fax machine as that was clearly my responsibility :)

So one might expect to get a little bit of flak here and there :)

So what is happening to Martello's project? When I spoke face to face to the Borders people a year or two ago, they were going to set up a website which would do the lot, and it would be "official".

ifonly
23rd Nov 2011, 08:27
Nibbler

Does your system differentiate between the different types of notifications required (EU, Non-EU, CTA etc) or does it send it to all email addressess regardless of whether they have any legal right to the information?

Nibbler
23rd Nov 2011, 13:52
Backpacker - Clearly you've put a bit of time and thought into it and I would be delighted to see / have a copy of the code. I like your ideas.

A UK wide facility? In my opinion the only way forward and to make any progress at all is to make this available in those Counties who are willing. The others might well follow suit, they may not. Either way it becomes a whole lot better for everyone in participating Counties.

IO540 - Indeed the FAX issue was raised but we overcame it with a little logic. All these agencies do actually have and use email. They are all able to create or to nominate an email account to receive the GARs, it simply takes the will to do it. So we are back to the all the benefits I mentioned.

Email failure. It can happen, usually at the receiving end. The set up here copies to the sender, us as the host and all the agencies. Should one agency not receive it then it's no drama. As any of these agencies will tell you they are not overly concerned about genuine errors, mistakes or a one off non-receipt. (I might add there are individuals who try to make more of it than it warrants but it never comes to more than a few tuts). With a copy it can easily be proven it was actually sent.

SPAM filters I didn't have a problem because it is sent as plain text, no attachments and no links. Simply white listing the host email solves any additional issues.

Storing the form information, our system does it. I overcame data protection issues using a piece of code allowing the details to be cached when the form is submitted. It's computer and browser specific so if you complete the form on the same computer using the same browser you can do it very quickly indeed. Not every box is cached so with 'public' computers in flying clubs (the worry is someone sends the form pretending to be you) they would need to know or guess those details. It would be highly unlikely to happen in the first place and equally unlikely the 'missing' information would be known or guessed correctly.

Obviously having an official website running official software has the warm fluffy feeling of security and reassurance.

IO540
24th Nov 2011, 07:00
SPAM filters I didn't have a problem because it is sent as plain text

That's interesting. So you don't send the actual GAR form?

When I email mine I email the actual form, printed to a PDF.

Contacting the sysadmin of each force and making sure they have whitelisted your SMTP server is a smart move :ok:

Nibbler
24th Nov 2011, 09:32
ifonly - the form goes to the 3 agencies regardless. I could have allowed multiple selection however the thought was people would miss this when completing the form.

IO540 - The text on the form is for the benefit of the person completing the form and not required by the agency staff. The actual paper form was to address the needs of an older technology, the FAX. Again a little logic was applied and it simplified the task.

The white listing was a little more cunning than that. During the initial contact and negotiation phase I used an email on the same domain I intended to use for the form. By communicating with me I didn't need to specifically request a white listing, which would have meant another delay or someone else finding fault.

SunnyDayInWiltshire
27th Nov 2011, 20:40
A nice feature would be to store personal details for recalling on repeat flights but that gets you hassles with the DPA

If the website uses a form to enter details, then browser plugins such as LastPass could be used. These remember your personal details for forms like this in an encrypted way that only you can unlock and is independent of the website itself. It automatically prefills all the form fields which you can then edit/tweak as appropriate for each flight.

Perhaps this might be a simpler way of dealing with the issue, avoids the Data Protection Act, and keeps the website itself simpler.

SD

Nibbler
29th Nov 2011, 13:32
Spot on SunnyDayInWiltshire - keep it simple!

This is why we set up the web form the way we did and you are quite right browser plugins can help with autofill

johnny3star
26th Jun 2012, 16:46
Has there been any progress on this? [GAR submissions by email]
I just got back from a trip to Southern Ireland, via N.I and then back via Glenforsa.
Completing and sending multiple GARs for this trip was a real time-consuming pain.

xj8driver
26th Jun 2012, 20:13
I always email my GAR form to the tower, and they forward it on to those that need it.

I had a chat with the local Border Force guys the other day, while they were waiting for an inbound flight, and they gave me their card and said to email the GAR to them if I wanted belt & braces.

I also asked about coming back at a different time/date than on the GAR, and they said to just call/email the home tower (EGTF) or call/email them with a revised ETA. As long as they know, there'd be no problem.

peterh337
26th Jun 2012, 20:40
You absolutely should not send a GAR to any airport; it contains personal information and the airport is not entitled to see it.

The GAR is sent to a combination of Customs, Immigration, or Police, according to the rules specified on the form (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/travel-customs/gar/gar-instructions.pdf).

Some airports however have entered into private arrangements with C&I and in such cases the form needs to be sent to e.g. Customs even when the official instructions don't say so. The best way to deal with that is to send the form to both C and I for every foreign departure and every foreign return. The ncu@ email address reaches both C and I in one go.

There is an ongoing project (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77546) to bring the badly needed electronic GAR submission which appears to be nearly done.

dublinpilot
26th Jun 2012, 21:33
And worse still if the airport don't send it it's you that gets in trouble not them. Even if they do send it you have no evidence that it was sent. I've been accused of not sending it in the past and would have had a difficult conversation except for the fact that I had a copy of the fax and the confirmation page with me.

The Grim EPR
16th Nov 2012, 23:45
Does anyone have an email address that Hampshire police use to receive completed GAR forms please?

And is anyone close to a generic solution to online filing of the GAR yet? Great work was being done I remember, but it went quiet (understandably) during the Olympics.

Thanks!

SunnyDayInWiltshire
17th Nov 2012, 07:14
I found a reference to this address for Hampshire police
[email protected]

But I have no idea if this is still valid and/or correct.

..but yes, it just highlights how hard it is to find out where to send these forms when the Police need to be notified. Your airfield might offer the option to do it for you.

It would be great if the government and police forces could save money by removing the need for special branch to be involved, save money, reduce notification time before flying etc etc. I can't really see an ongoing need for this system. We can only hope.

The Grim EPR
17th Nov 2012, 07:44
Thanks for that Mr Sunnydayinwiltshire. Much appreciated.

Google on this occasion wasn't quite as friendly as usual though. I had found that email address previously. (I should have mentioned that!).

Sadly, it is no longer active and the emails bounce back.