Pablo Mason loses unfair dismissal case [Archive]

foldingwings

21st Mar 2009, 11:23

Now with no future in flying, I see that PM is advertising himself as an after dinner speaker!

Pablo Mason
Squadron Leader Pablo Mason is one of life's extraordinary characters and is full of amazing tales about his distinguished RAF career.

Pablo was among the 24 tornado crews detachment during the Gulf War. During Operation 'Desert Storm' Pablo Mason led his formation of four 15 Sqn. Tornados on 24 bombing missions over Iraq.

These included ultra-low level daylight mission, medium-level night bombing and the first ever Buccaneer/Tornado attack using laser-guided bombs which took place on the 2nd February 1991. During his first Gulf War mission his No. 2 was shot down and the crew (John Peters and John Nichol) became POWs. This was the attack on the Ar Rumaylah airfield and it was the first daylight Tornado attack of the war.

Pablo then flew for My Travel Lite and used to not just fly but also 'entertain' many passengers - the thank you letters from happy holidaymakers about they were in fits of laughter from his amazing tales made him one of the most popular pilots in the air!

spheroid

21st Mar 2009, 12:03

Pablo then flew for My Travel Lite and used to not just fly but also 'entertain' many passengers Was he some sort of clown?

airborne_artist

21st Mar 2009, 14:19

PM was in the LHS for our return flight from a Greek island about five years ago. A few pax were very late, and PM took it upon himself to talk, without drawing breath, for a good 15 mins on the PA. To be fair, he had the majority of the pax eating out of his hand, but I found myself reaching for the little white bag after about five minutes.

I very much got the impression that he likes an audience ;)

Jackonicko

21st Mar 2009, 14:48

A 'colourful character' to be sure, but when I interviewed him, found that he was also one who was pretty brutally honest about his own shortcomings, while other XV Squadron folk who flew alongside him in Granby were complimentary.

I find the alacrity with which people who didn't know him (except by reputation) are queuing up to kick him when he's down, (and from behind the anonymity of a PPRuNe handle), pretty distasteful.

Perhaps worth remembering that he's a fellow aviator, and a man who put his 'nads on the line for his country in a real shooting war.

And whatever his weaknesses, those two things should entitle him to a little consideration and even respect.

Tankertrashnav

21st Mar 2009, 15:16

I have never met PM and have no knowledge of his abilities, but I have to agree with Jackonicko on this, with regard to not kicking a man when he is down. At least he has never bored anyone to death, unlike another Gulf War veteran I could mention who has carved out a lucrative career as a spokesman on all matters aeronautical on the dubious basis of having been shot down by the Iraqis. No names.... etc, etc

Jackonicko

21st Mar 2009, 19:44

It was exactly the stream of people queuing up to kick Pablo on R&N (rather than this thread) that prompted my post, Foldy.

Very few of them know him. Even fewer have flown alongside him. Yet fewer have done as he did. (Yourself quite clearly excluded).

None of them have made their 'contribution' to his character assassination openly, and all (yourself included) have chosen to snipe from behind the anonymity of a PPRuNe username.

It's really not very elevating, is it?

And saying so is something less than sanctimony.

As to claiming single-handed responsibility for victory, Pablo's most famous utterance was surely that he was terrified, and when I spoke to him, he was at pains to underline his part as being that of a small cog in a bigger machine. It's not as though he was a complete braggart in the mould of 'Sardiney' Ward, who chose to undermine and belittle the efforts of everyone else!

I had a good friend who did fly another XV Squadron jet in the same conflict (Bob B), and he was gracious about Pablo's contribution, as were a number of other former XV Squadron aircrew.

But I'm not concerned as to Pablo's flying or leadership qualities, nor as to his character. I'm not for one moment arguing that he was a great RAF FJ pilot, nor even a great example of an RAF officer, nor that he was a model employee for his airline.

My opinion is that he was "none of the above" (and that he was an average, at best, Tornado pilot, who did his imperfect best for his squadron, his service and his country) - though as such he was still a better man than I, and a better man than many of his critics - as the fact that he earned a hard-won place in an RAF FJ cockpit at all clearly demonstrates.

Though you, as a Tornado pilot yourself, might quite rightly and quite reasonably view him rather differently.

I do question the need to kick him when he's down, and I do wonder at the character of those who were his former comrades in arms, or who are his fellow aviators, and who choose to do so in quite such a sneaky and underhand manner.

And much the same goes for any 'behind the hand' sniggering about John N*****. Whether a 'switch pigs' was responsible for his fate in Iraq is immaterial, in my view, and regardless of whether it's his vanity or the incompetence of slack-witted journos and editors that have led to the occasional misapprehension that he was a pilot, rather than a Nav.

If you're going to criticise a fellow aviator by name (or so explicitely that even my mum would know who you're talking about - and she's been dead 24 years) then I think that one should probably have the 'nads to do so openly.

As a serving 'mud', and as a former squadron mate of Pablo and John N, you have more right than anyone to comment, and more authority. That makes you close to unique among his PPRuNe detractors, however!

I make no pretence to having anything like your expertise or experience that would qualify me to contribute equally to the debate. I have no wish to get embroiled in an argument with you, and would underline that I have absolutely no right or wish to criticise you, personally.

But I do deplore the overall campaign of anonymous Joes lining up to give Pablo a swift kicking while he's down.

It doesn't seem very British, and it's certainly not the sort of behaviour one expects from RAF officers or professional aviators.

ShyTorque

21st Mar 2009, 20:47

Jacko, your last sentence says it all. The only reason I can think that anyone should decry another pilot on here is perhaps to bolster their own feelings of inadequacy.

P.S. Folding wings, "Helo" is a Navy term. PM was a "Heli" pilot, at least he was thirty years ago when I served on the same station.

threeputt

21st Mar 2009, 22:17

I fully concur with what, my good, friend Foldie states about the enigma that was and is Pablo the stick monkey.

I knew him when he was on XV prior to GW 1 and I was on a Mineval/Maxeval inspection as an evaluator. Pablo decided that it would be a good idea to try and put me off my stroke by trying to sell me a car. He is, quite bluntly, and I would tell him to his face, a narcascistic buffoon who needs to grow up!

Lots of us did equally good and brave things in GW1 but without the need to self agrondise or publish books about our efforts. Pablo and John Peters/Nicholl have, for over 17 years, held the record for the most number of hollow words printed for any FJ pair in history.

One might gather from that that I don't have much of a liking for people of the ilk of Mason and Peters/Nicholl (the switch pigs f**k up monkey).

Sue me if you dare you three chimps

3P:ok:

glad rag

21st Mar 2009, 22:24

Wow, they are all crawling out of the woodwork now!

:sad:

Laarbruch72

21st Mar 2009, 23:17

If you like, you can sum him up in 7 paragraphs as Jacko did.

I can sum him up in 7 words...

Rule breaking, self centred, egotistical f*cking prick.
It doesn't need any more than that.

Jackonicko

21st Mar 2009, 23:21

Threeputt,

Of course many people were better and braver than Pablo and the two Johns (people who did not merely do "equally good and brave things", but who did better and braver things), and some paid a much heavier price.

I can sympathise better than most when the less deserving (but more assiduously publicity seeking) take a disproportionate share of the glory.

And I'd entirely understand (and even approve of) eyebrows being raised in exasperation, and questions being raised in private conversation, or even in scurrilous happy hour or crew room banter.

But I simply don't see any virtue in, or need for, public denunciation by anonymous detractors.

You might be happy to "tell him to his face" that he is "a narcascistic buffoon who needs to grow up!" You're probably right, and I daresay you'd find widespread agreement, perhaps from the most unlikely quarters!

But you did not. 'Threeputt' and others chose to do so anonymously, on PPRuNe.

Again, it ill behoves an amateur pilot, an amateurish journo and a failed FJ wannabe to question someone with your achievements and of your stature, or of Foldy's experience and expertise, and I hope that you will forgive me for doing so.

parabellum

22nd Mar 2009, 01:24

I do question the need to kick him when he's down,

Oh agreed Jacko!:rolleyes: They should all jump to protect him, you know, the way he tried to protect his FO at the tribunal!

Jackonicko

22nd Mar 2009, 01:55

There's a huge difference between active support and giving a good kicking.

Roger Sofarover

22nd Mar 2009, 05:02

Jacko

So what is your full name and where do you work?

People are not giving him a good kicking, they are telling the truth as they see it. There are hundreds of folk on the R+N thread who have no idea who Paul is but are stating how great he is how marvelous, the best pilot in the world blah blah blah, and people that know him are fed up with it. Pablo was a Bud Holland in waiting. Colourful yes, charismatic yes but stop there. At his tribunal he questioned why his First Officer was not punished!!! Now that is certainly not behaviour becoming of an Officer. Pablo, I am sure does not care one jot about the 'kicking' he is getting. It all adds to the publicity and it will all sell loads of copies of his next book

BEagle

22nd Mar 2009, 07:05

Jacko, you are absolutely right, in my view.

Too often these days do PPRuNe posts exceed the banter and mutual pi$$-taking limit and descend into mean-spirited personal abuse.

For whatever faults he might have had in military life (I only knew him when he was doing his FJ cross-over training), Paul obviously brightened up the boring world of the chav-stuffed people-tubes.

Another Bud Holland? No, not really.

It does sound like it was rather a case of 'strike three' for him with his footballer-on-the-flight deck incident.

If he cheers up a few folk in this depressing, totalitarian world of Brave nuLabor with his after dinner talks, then good luck to him.

Wig Wag

22nd Mar 2009, 10:06

Gentlemen, the essential point in the whole argument is being overlooked. Did Pablo endanger the aircraft? Of course not. There was nothing intrinsically unsafe in his decision to allow the passenger on the flight deck.

What is being lost these days is basic appreciation of risk. I am ex RAF and have flown for a few charter airlines. Many of these companies are more than happy to pressure Captains to take commercially favourable decisions - such as pushing flight time limitiations to the limits - which have a dubious impact on flight safety.

Pablo's decision was politically risky and most of us would not have taken that risk - because we know how vindictive some companies can be. I doubt that the airline were in anyway considering that the flight had been endangered. More likely they just didn't want a 'character' kicking round the system

To survive an airline career you need to be the grey man these days. When you end your career you aim to have only three letters on file: Offer of employment, confirmation of command course and confirmation of leaving date. That's a tough call for anyone with a bit of excess personality.

Pablo did not do anything basically wrong other than being a bit naive about a politically sensitive ruling. However, he's thrown a bit of light on a system of rules that is now so rigid that normal and reasonable behaviour is sanctioned.

Remember, the Captain does have the final say in matters of safety. That's a two way street in today's commercial aviation.

Before anyone launches into a pilot who falls foul of the system just remember that pilots are in a highly vulnerable situation these days. It's possible to be a reliable and safe operator but come unstuck due to a mild clash with company culture. I have seen it many times and it's a common reason for changing employer in the airline world. The only difference is that Pablo has a public profile.

jindabyne

22nd Mar 2009, 10:21

Again, it ill behoves an amateur pilot, an amateurish journo and a failed FJ wannabe to question someone with your achievements and of your stature, or of Foldy's experience and expertise, and I hope that you will forgive me for doing so.

No need to mock yourself Jacko, but you're quite right - and I also agree with BEags - it isn't fitting, in this case, for you, and others, to challenge the likes of Foldi and those of similar ilk. For myself, I don't believe that PM is on the end of a kicking; it is simply that those of repute and who were close to him in the RAF are choosing to put forward their first-hand views as a counter to those who unwittingly and mistakenly applaud his past antics, with little or no foundation.

As for hiding behind anonymity, this is PPRune, and I find it somewhat bemusing, not to say hypocritical of some, that this line is being deployed on this thread, whereas on others, (eg, the Scottish Gp Capt), it is, and was, fair game.

PS: Don't have an issue with the anonymity thing, just the consistency bit.

Jackonicko

22nd Mar 2009, 11:04

Roger Sofarover,

When I choose to criticise someone's character (not their actions or their words) and do so by name, immediately after they've just lost their living, and if they're a fellow aviator, and as long as they're not a public figure (and so senior) that criticism 'goes with the territory', then I hope that I'll have the moral gumption to put my name to it.

(Jindabyne, I think that that's the key difference between criticising the very character of a not-very-sharp Squadron Leader and kicking the B-word, or Torpy, for example, for their actions.).

Or at least I hope that I would desist from joining a queue of people who didn't know the bloke concerned to administer a kick.

This thread is populated largely by people who have met the guy (myself included) - the other one plainly isn't, and it was that one that I objected to.

Jindy,

No mockery of anyone else intended - I have the utmost respect for foldy and threeputt, and as to me.....

Just a pretty accurate and honest assessment, I'm afraid.

boswell bear

22nd Mar 2009, 11:10

PPRuNe at it's Best/Worst yet again. :rolleyes:

foldingwings

22nd Mar 2009, 11:14

Jacko,

the other one plainly isn't, and it was that one that I objected to.

In that case post your comments there, not here!

parabellum

22nd Mar 2009, 12:05

Wig-Wag - are you, perhaps, being 'a bit naive'? Thirty six years in commercial aviation, not to mention six military myself and of course rules were broken, or, more specifically, not totally adhered to, but don't forget that PB was on a final warning! He exhibited the Long Bow archers traditional salute fully aware of his precarious position and now, rightfully, I believe, will pay for it.

Many, many, many FJ pilots have been in the civil system for a very long time now and manage very well so who has the problem, PB or the other 99.999%?

BEagle

22nd Mar 2009, 13:51

Jindabyne, I doubt whether even in his wildest dreams 'Pablo' would ever have thought that his name would be mentioned in the same breath as The Scottish Officer......

'Pablo' might have been a bit of a chump with his airline antics, but really that's about all....

goudie

22nd Mar 2009, 16:00

agrondise or publish books about our efforts

Nothing wrong in writing about one's combat exploits. The libraries and book shops are full of books of this nature and are very popular. Perhaps a touch of envy here?
Although PB was not too popular with some of his peers I bet his groundcrew loved him, for whatever reasons!

Wig Wag

22nd Mar 2009, 18:42

Wig-Wag - are you, perhaps, being 'a bit naive'?

parabellum, I'm just commenting on what I saw in my airline career spanning several large UK charter airliners and and a couple of well known scheduled carriers.

I have seen quite a few guys fall foul of company culture just like Pablo. That includes ex FJ's and ETPS pilots who have stepped out of line. Yes, Pablo was naive. If he had wound his neck in he would still be in a job. However, I have seen worse rule breaking and risky attitudes amongst guys who are still flying. It's knowing where to draw a line.

In a major scheduled carrier I flew for an Aussie guy made a habit of pitching up for work in a tee shirt and thongs and getting changed in the corner of the crewroom in front of the fleet managers office. The management gave him a coded warining that he should wind his neck in - he did and kept his job. The guy was a 'character' and politically sharp too.

The Fleet Manager in a charter airline I flew for was ex FJ, completely non standard, swore like a trooper and had quite a reputation with the cabin crew. How he got to his position we never understood. However, despite being highly unorthodox he was politically very astute.

So, from my perch Pablo's behaviour was no worse than I saw on quite a few other occasions. His failing was being politically unaware.

Me? I just played it straight, shined my shoes and played a very straight line on SOP's. I doubt if anybody remembered much about me after I retired and that's fine by me.

We're all different and hopefully there is still place for that.

P3 Bellows

22nd Mar 2009, 19:32

I fully concur with what, my good, friend Foldie states about the enigma that was and is Pablo the stick monkey

Would it be fair to say that you in here who dont like PM and want to give him a kicking and refer to him as the " stick monkey " are all fully paid up members of the society of directional consultants? ie quite balanced with a chip on each shoulder. :rolleyes:

PBY

22nd Mar 2009, 19:57

Wig Wag, thanks for your comments! Very well written. Very mature and balanced. I find too many people in aviation these days are very unbalanced and full of problems. Just reading these posts you get a feel for, who is unbalanced and who you would not like to fly with. But I feel, that PM definitely did not endanger anybody. I agree, that there is far more guys, who are "politicaly correct", who could be a the danger. But the funny part is, you will never explain an unbalanced person, that they are off. It is a waste of time.

The Real Slim Shady

23rd Mar 2009, 00:23

I fly airplanes.

When I flew for the military I could do stuff: exciting stuff, good fun stuff, and extremely dodgy stuff. Stuff, nevertheless.

Stuff that worked to different rules: 60 degrees of bank, 6G, nasty ****.

Now I fly a 737.

I still do stuff.

I give people a nice ride: comfy, safe.

I get paid shed loads of money, about 3 times the average Flt Lt / Sqn Ldr.

I put up with **** from security on a daily basis.

I come home at night and Mrs TRSS is there and the reason I fly airplanes becomes clear: I don't want to be a hero, or a character or someone different. I don't want to stand out, I just want to do my job, come home, and live my life.

I fly to live: it's just a job.

PS The day the passengers notice me is the day I f8ck up royally!

parabellum

23rd Mar 2009, 11:43

The best and most relevant post on this thread yet!!!

Well said TRSS.

Gentlemen, the essential point in the whole argument is being overlooked. Did Pablo endanger the aircraft?

The essential part in the whole argument is, "Did Paul/Pablo Mason have the company's permission to break their rules, had he checked and obtained the OK for a departure from the SOPs?

As a commercial captain he is never expected to endanger the aircraft, (or passengers,) so, if already under a double warning, he chose to not take the rather obvious but less public route and instead flaunt himself and flaunt the rules it is difficult to find any sympathy for him.

Tourist

23rd Mar 2009, 19:06

Don't know the chap, but......

Parabellum says:- "The essential part in the whole argument is, "Did Paul/Pablo Mason have the company's permission to break their rules, had he checked and obtained the OK for a departure from the SOPs?

As a commercial captain he is never expected to endanger the aircraft"

This makes an assumption that breaking rules = endangering aircraft

That is often, but not always the case by any means, and certainly not realistically in this case. Famous footballer turns suicide attacker.......errr......I think not. (Oh, if only)

Also, people keep harking back to the fact that Pablo crashed a Tornado through being an arse, therefore must be a ****e pilot.
I know many pilots who have crashed through pilot error during their military careers who most would consider to be excellent pilots. Douglas Bader anyone? Conversely, I can think of many distinctly average pilots who have never crashed, myself included.

Just This Once...

24th Mar 2009, 09:27

How far off topic!

Shot down - you have now been told.

The Equivocator

24th Mar 2009, 09:55

TRSS

A good post in general, but you make the classic civilian pilot gloat and telling us about how much more you earn...:rolleyes: Do you really earn £150K +?;)

I agree with the thrust of your statement; the two worlds of military and civil aviation are poles apart. Trying to carry the things that made you (arguably) a winner in one world into the other is a recipe for disaster.

I have many stories from civilian pilot friends who detest flying with ex-military guys as they have tarred us all with the same brush as the (few) aggressively-average fast jet mates knocking around the system. I'm sure there are ex-truckie blokes with the same "miltary is best' mindset and who are CRM nightmares.

Mind you I wouldn't want to be operating in the flexibility-required non-SOP Iraqi or Afghan military airspace with an SOP bound one-trick airline pony!:E

Horses for courses?

Not better, not worse, just different. It strikes me that Pablo's ego ignored this simple fact.

angels

24th Mar 2009, 11:10

Don't know him. But,

There was nothing intrinsically unsafe in his decision to allow the passenger on the flight deck.

There isn't anything intrinsically unsafe about letting me onto the flight deck, I've been there many times pre-9/11.

There isn't anything intrinsically unsafe about letting a pilot airside with a Thermos flask full of tea.

But the rules -- daft as I think they are -- say it can't happen.

He was on a final warning and breached one of those rules.

End of.

parabellum

24th Mar 2009, 12:08

Ninety year old The Equivocator pretty much has it summed up, what goes in the military doesn't necessarily go in civvy street, horses for courses. A whole lot of reasons why, not the least of which is insurance, if the commander of a civvy aircraft breaches a CAA rule/Law or SOPs, (part of the Ops Manual, a legal document), he may well have reduced the insurance cover if he didn't actually invalidate it and infringed the AOC of the company and exposed them to unnecessary risk. It simply wasn't Mason's call.

Wader2

24th Mar 2009, 13:35

exposed [the company] to unnecessary risk. It simply wasn't Mason's call.

Simply put, once the company (or a crew member) is aware of a rule breach then they have two possible courses of action.

Take action.

Or Take no action.

In the latter case they are then condoning the trangression and would be equally liable, in law, for any guilt or blame. An example of this is in fraud where the perpetrator has received a lighter sentence than others who, while aware, did nothing to prevent the fraud.

Tourist

24th Mar 2009, 13:39

Is what he did aginst the law, or just against company SOPs?

Wader2

24th Mar 2009, 13:45

Tourist, what do you think? For it to be company policy would imply that all airlines have taken the prudent precaution of installing hijack proof doors which can actually endanger the crew in the event of a crash.

John Nichol

24th Mar 2009, 14:15

Gosh - there's a lot of vitriol flying around here! I don't normally get involved with some of the spite and bile spouted 'round these parts - but it's a quiet afternoon so here's a view (just mine of course, and worth no more nor less than any of yours):

I'm not really going to comment on Pablo who was my TO on XV, my formation leader in GW1 (for 1 mission of course!). I was also in the a/c he was bouncing when he went in in Germany. Other than to say, when criticising people it's important to get your facts right. So:

1. Foldingwings - "Don't think he ever made it above pairs lead!" - Factually incorrect.

2. Tankertrashnav - "...unlike another Gulf War veteran I could mention who has carved out a lucrative career as a spokesman on all matters aeronautical on the dubious basis of having been shot down by the Iraqis. No names.... etc, etc" - Well, perhaps, but all I do is express an opinion in public on TV & radio - as many others love to do on these public forums. Curious that. And if you can identify any of my utterances as factually flawed, I'll be happy to correct them.

3. Foldingwings - "The guy mentioned above, by tankertrashnav, who never corrects people when they refer to him as a Tornado pilot and was responsible for being shot down (he screwed up) is of the same mould." - Factually incorrect on so many levels:

Firstly, my challenge to you is to produce one single occasion when I have not corrected an interviewer (when I have been present - I can't do it if it's pre-recorded or in print) re. the pilot/nav description so often misused in the press. I will gladly donate £100 to Combat Stress if you can find a single one.

Secondly, just for fun (and as you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time slagging off people and telling 'When I Was...' tales on pprune, it will give you something more productive to do), I challenge you to find the one single occasion when I actually did describe myself as "one of the pilots shot down in Iraq" - if you can find it, you'll know why it was imperative I said that at the time. Again, £100 to Combat Stress if you manage it.

Thirdly, if you can demonstrate the causal link you clearly know between your claim that I 'screwed up' and was subsequently 'responsible' for being shot down...you guessed it, another £100 to Combat Stress. Hint - there was a long thread about this many years ago on pprune.

If you can do none of these things, perhaps you might like to make a donation to charity...or even admit you were wrong?

4. Threeput - "One might gather from that that I don't have much of a liking for people of the ilk of Mason and Peters/Nicholl (the switch pigs f**k up monkey). Sue me if you dare you three chimps" - An interesting one this one 3put, a 1 star made the same claim a few years ago when having a go at me in the press. He was more than keen to withdraw the comment after being threatened with legal action, and the newspaper apologised. Still, I've never shied away from the fact that I could have made a switch pigs over the tgt - interestingly, the Sqn QWI later gave a very interesting chat about what might have gone wrong (not switch pigs), but as with many QWI lectures, it was a bit over my head.

3putt - as you seem to spend huge amounts of your retirement doling out bile to everyone from me to an AOC, perhaps you'd like to join in the Combat Stress challenge too? It's a very good cause.

5. Olive Oil - "Shot down, or blown up by their own slick bombs, jettissoned live close to the ground? I think we should be told" - Now that IS a new one I've not heard before! But really, the post crash research (some good pictures in Tornado Down) seemed to suggest a SAM 14 if I remember correctly. Still, in the spirit of good will, if you can even come close to justifying that claim.....yeah, you know where the £100 will go.

best wishes to all,
John

Scouser1

24th Mar 2009, 14:21

Is he working elsewhere now-or just after dinner speaking stuff? Just curious...

Wee Weasley Welshman

24th Mar 2009, 14:49

With the best will in the world to the man, who in the days of Empire would probably have created Masopetomia and whose Son today is a very fine RAF pilot, he was a bit of a tit as an airline pilot.

Being quite a bit of a tit for quite a long time he eventually got fired.

Shall we draw this thread to a close now? I doubt he's enjoying it and am given to understand he'd reading it.

WWW

cazatou

24th Mar 2009, 15:19

WWW

Did you mean Mesopotamia (aka Iraq) by any chance?

Wee Weasley Welshman

24th Mar 2009, 16:37

It was a play on that with a hint of Rhodes and Rhodesia.

WWW

threeputt

24th Mar 2009, 18:20

Still, I've never shied away from the fact that I could have made a switch pigs over the tgt - interestingly, the Sqn QWI later gave a very interesting chat about what might have gone wrong (not switch pigs), but as with many QWI lectures, it was a bit over my head.

I've only been on this forum for 2 and a bit years so have not seen the discussions on PPRUNE you allude to a few years ago; just answer me this(as a fellow GR1 Nav flying on night 1 from Dhahran), did you and JP release any type of explosive ordanance on your designated DMPI?

If not then, by association, you must have had some form of technical glich shall we say. I would not blame you for that, we all were under extreme pressure at the time and switch sequences on the "Fin" were sometimes inordinatly complicated.

What got/get's my goat about you two was/is the smarmy self serving way that you both came/come across on TV. I and a lot of others thought that what you did by overtly publicising and profitting from your experiences was not on and it was not appropriate, bearing in mind the number of guy's who lost their lives during the war (and yes I know that you donated a little of your profits to service charities).

Your unfortunate incaceration was clearly not something that most people could come to terms with and I was delighted when you and the rest of the POW's were released.

Notwithstanding that, books are things you write towards the end of your time and not when you have only been in a war for one sortie.......... it's not what true heroes do and there's an end to it.

3P:ok:
aka Gedgie
aka Jerry Gegg
Sqn Ldr RAF (Retd)

John Nichol

24th Mar 2009, 19:27

Hello Jerry - I'm afraid I don't know you, nor to my knowledge have we ever met, so I'm afraid I can't make any assessments as to your character or aviation abilities.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion about me, regardless of your lack of knowledge. When one puts one's head above the media parapet, you expect to take a few pot shots!

You are correct to say that JP and I never got around to releasing any ordinance - not a huge new story as I wrote about it 17 years ago - and as I have said on countless occasions, my feeling is that it was probably my fault. But as you say, many of us make mistakes so I'm not too sure that it truly merits abuse like: "the switch pigs f**k up monkey. Sue me if you dare you three chimps" . A curious turn of phrase to say the least!

You criticise me for speaking in public about my experiences, yet you have made some 170 posts on this public outlet, many about your own personal experiences, and some abusive about people I suspect you have little real knowledge of. Your profile suggests you enjoy "Keeping up to date with the RAF" and "enjoying your retirement" - you seem to have a most curious way of doing both.

You are at pains to condemn me for writing about my experiences - well, again you are entitled to your opinions, however wide of the mark. I have now written 11 books, subjects ranging from WW2 to the present day operations, and as there are around 1,000,000 copies around, some might disagree with you.

Finally - "I and a lot of others thought that what you did by overtly publicising and profiting from your experiences was not on and it was not appropriate". That is an interesting point - you are totally correct, I did profit from writing a book about my experiences and also the next 10. I have also been paid for the journalistic and commentary work I do. Without blowing smoke up my own jacksie, I think I've worked fairly hard to achieve my limited success outside the RAF - in much the same way that many others have done, using the experiences and skills they learned in the military.

I guess we will never agree, and that's truly fine as far as I'm concerned - I will however thank you for coming out from behind the dubious cloak of pprune anonymity which many other people use for their cowardly attacks.

best wishes to you and yours,
John Nichol

foldingwings

24th Mar 2009, 20:14

JN,

Having been publically aired and responded to, I have removed my comments and apologise to John Nichol.

Now I am moving on.

Regards

Foldie

WWW,

Shall we draw this thread to a close now?

What an excellent suggestion. Time to move on before any more blood is spilled on the carpet.

Tourist

24th Mar 2009, 20:49

Thank you all for reinforcing my opinion that the RAF are, on the whole, a shamefull backstabbing green eyed bunch of w@nkers that you wouldn't want to watch your back in a pub let alone a war.

Rights or wrongs of Pablo etc, the place to sort this cr@p out is in the mess at the time, not in a public kangaroo court like this when you have the victims at a disadvantage.

Shame on the lot of you.

John Nichol

24th Mar 2009, 20:56

Hello to you too Dave - now I do seem to remember your name - was it from Laarbruch? Good of you too, to come out from throwing jibes from the shadows.

I realise you wish to move on, but I think it's worth finishing with a couple of points, so....

1. . You say - "However, when I say "Don't think he ever made it above pairs lead!" by the use of the very word 'think' that in itself suggests doubt in my own mind and therefore not a statement of fact so: inaccurate - Yes, factually - Not off my pen." So why on earth say it? It sounds remarkably like the act of a bully who gets a warm and fuzzy feeling by being spitefull to someone. As I say, each to their own...but it does say an awful lot about a chap he gets off on being mean to someone just to cause a bit of grief and debate.

2. You say - "Firstly, I cannot place in print occasions like you suggest but I did watch a number of Air Show programmes that you hosted on Discovery Wings in which I recall that you were repeatedly referred to as a pilot - so, IMMSMC, it would seem that you didn't correct them between shoots or before distribution!"

Simply untrue Dave, and sad that you can't admit you are wrong or prove your point (a legacy of the Bucc force? Just kidding of course) - but please feel free to prove me wrong and I for one, will keep my promise.

3. You say - "Thirdly, as a QWI for over 30 years of my service career with much of it on Tornado, I suspect that I could but frankly, life's too short!". I am presuming you are refering to your inane allegation that I " was responsible for being shot down (he screwed up)"

That is truly cowardly of you Dave, and not what I'd expect from an officer of your standing. You make a truly serious allegation about my personal conduct and then don't have the courage to justify it. That is so very sad. Again, each to their own of course - but your life is not too short to spend seemingly endless hours insulting people.

4. You say - "Anyway, this thread isn't about you" - I couldn't agree with you more Dave, but it was you and the other fella who brought my name up with your previously anonymous jibes.

5. You say - "recently I have felt inclined to let off steam wrt those self-serving, arrogant, egotistical and self-indulgent members of the Tornado force who, in my experience and opinion, were not the sharpest tacks in the box but seem to have pulled the wool over everybody's eyes with their unashamed self-promotion". - For the purposes of our debate, I'm going to presume I'm included in this description. I make the point again, that you and some others seem to have missed the rather joyous contadiction of crticising others for speaking in public by proclaiming your own views and comments (many factualy incorrect) on a public website.

Finally, you say "Now I am moving on" - fair enough, but a bit of a shame you can't stand up and justify your actions.

Again, best wishes to you and yours,
John

exscribbler

24th Mar 2009, 20:58

Tourist: I couldn't agree more. This content of this thread is shameful in the extreme and unworthy of the Service which you lot profess to hold in such high regard. Stop it now.

taxydual

24th Mar 2009, 21:31

Yep, the PPRune pissing contest again. Endex.

RansS9

24th Mar 2009, 22:01

As an outsider(=taxpayer) reading this I'm inclined to agree with "tourist".
Out of interest given the interpersonal animosity/ egos etc (by the way you're not alone it's the same in the medical profession on occasions): have there been any cases of or suspicions of "fragging" in the RAF.

TIM

AIDU

24th Mar 2009, 22:04

This is getting very BORING now. The usual suspects spouting the same old crap.

The Equivocator

24th Mar 2009, 22:09

Got to agree with the previous posters, whatever I personally think of Pablo (whom I have met) and JN (whom I have also met v.briefly) I think it is pretty poor form to attack them with such vitriol here, especially the personal attacks from retired senior officers who should know better.

I don't wish to be a sanctimonious tosspot, but some of the stuff on here is petty, puerile and frankly beyond the pale.

I don't hold shy of venturing opinion on here under this handle (and a previous truth be told) but surely Jerry and Dave, you do yourselves no favours!

John, for what it's worth from a serving officer, I have never heard anyone in any crewroom or mess denigrate your right to make a living off the back of your terrible experiences. They (or I:}) might or might not like what you say, or your books but they don't hold any grudge with how you make your living. If it wasn't you it would be someone else with an equally valid or invalid view depending on your point of view.

From a serving guy who has frequently had to consider the 'what if' of the aftermath of capture and still does, I do not wish what you suffered on my worst enemy. I suggest the retired perspective may remove this clarity of thought!

I stand by my opinion of Pablo; he's carried too much military into a civilian cockpit. Change or die...

suninmyeyes

24th Mar 2009, 22:10

Gents
As an airline pilot I wandered into this thread to see how the military are discussing the PM unfair dismissal. Personally I felt that he did not endanger his aircraft by allowing someone onto the flight deck but his actions were inappropriate and unjustified, especially for someone on a final warning.

I was disappointed to see the level of vitriolic mean-spirited back-stabbing against not only him but also JN. I sympathise JN that you should have to defend yourself on this forum. On the other side of the coin the VC10 pilots we went drinking with in Bahrain just pre 911 were a great team and very impressive.( I've since tried the same chat up lines on some of our girls but for me it just didn't work....)

AARON O'DICKYDIDO

24th Mar 2009, 22:57

After reading all this from serving officers I feel very saddened that personal standards have sunk so low. I am glad that I have done my 25 years and moved on. I may have taken a dislike to guys while in the service but never did I speak in such terms! Disgraceful and I think most of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Pontius Navigator

25th Mar 2009, 07:47

I may have taken a dislike to guys while in the service but never did I speak in such terms! Disgraceful and I think most of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Quite. .

Flap62

25th Mar 2009, 08:47

Are you all completely mad!!!

This is great stuff. Ex Tornado navs tearing into each other and showing more chips than your average Harry Ramsdens!

Crack on fellas.

foldingwings

25th Mar 2009, 09:08

flap62,

Despite your enthusiasm for a crewroom brawl I for one will not support your request.

Having been involved from the outset of these hostilities I now wish to publically apologise to John Nichol and Pablo, if he is listening, for airing my private thoughts in public. I regret that, following what started out as an idle observation about Pablo's new role in life, I allowed myself to be drawn into a deeper feud that resulted in a number of people being hurt and others honourably outing themselves on this thread.

I apologise to all those that I might have offended in the course of these exchanges and will now do the honourable thing by withdrawing to my chamber, removing the adverse comments that I posted previously and falling on my sword.

Foldie

Ewan Whosearmy

25th Mar 2009, 09:21

If PM is reading these posts and finding them unpleasant, then I would suggest that he post here to correct those individuals who have seen fit to use this forum to conduct a drive-by-shooting on his character.

I think that cool, level-headed responses from him would quickly reveal his detractors for what they are: they certainly have for JN, IMO.

DeeCee

25th Mar 2009, 10:19

I have not been in the military and I am not a commercial pilot, but I would like to make a couple of points;

The aggression displayed here is what you would want and expect from military pilots, together with a will to win at all costs. I know that I couldn't do it. I salute you all.

The PM issue has nothing to do with him being a pilot. It is purely an employment issue. He was dismissed for breaking a rule and took it to an Employment Tribunal and lost.

BEagle

25th Mar 2009, 11:40

Foldie, it is often difficult to hold back when endlessly needled by some of the irritating people on this site - with whom you probably would never have shared a crewroom nor would want to....

Your post was most noble.

It is high time that the attention of 't management should be brought to the fact that the puerile jibes of a few are utterly ruining this site - long term posters of bygone years have simply had enough and have stopped posting as a result.

FayeDeck

25th Mar 2009, 11:44

For an outsiders view of JN......

John interviewed me a few times when I was displaying over a 5 year period. He was always polite, humble and at pains to make the piece about you and your machine and not himself.

He would then usually do his RAFA stint at given airshow and attend the party that evening.

Sadly I used to see John getting a hard time at said parties at times, all I can say is that in my dealings with him he was nothing but a positive role model for the RAF, remember, little Jonny and his sister Julie at an airshow arent interested in correct switch making, ordnance dropping etc etc, he just wants to talk to aircrew. (Or Ex aircrew!)

I will end with 2 points;

1. To expect John to correct someone every time they call him a pilot is ridiculous, it would continually break the cadence of interviews. If a civilian sees or knows of someone getting out of the cockpit of a Mil AC he is a pilot to them, end of.

2. I am not related to John at all!

:ok:

John Nichol

25th Mar 2009, 12:11

Dear Dave - many thanks for your apology, it is appreciated and accepted. I also greatly appreciate the fact that you have taken a considerable risk in outing yourself along with Jerry. That was a very honourable thing to do.

Incidentally, I've now been pointed to a number of websites with details of your good self and just seen a photo of you on Facebook (never got into it myself). Although we are all older and greyer, I think I recognise you now - I seem to remember you were on Red Flag just prior to GW1 as a Group observer? If I am correct, I remember you as being jolly approachable, and friendly to me (the most junior shag on the Sqn).

I've even gone through some old photos and I think you appear in a few - most notably at The Elephant Bar and the 'O' Club during the lingerie party. Those were the days, pre-Tailhook! If I've mis-idented you, my sincere apologies - PM and I'll delete. My point is that I acknowledge your undoubted experience in the FJ world.

To that end, I would welcome the chance to discuss (in private) with you the notion that in some way, my possible (nay probable) switchology over Al Rumaylah in Jan 1991 had something to do with a presumed SAM 14 strike some time later. I will gladly PM you my phone number so we can chat - Not because I want to continue a punch-up, but because I am genuinely bemused by the claim.

Roger S - you accuse me of being pompous for asking 3 anonymous posters to justify themselves and their claims. At the risk of repeating myself, I did not start this spat - and I agree that those of us in the public eye have to take the bricks, I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should not call to account those who throw them inaccurately on anonymous forums with little thought of the fall out.

So my offer goes to you too - you claim to have extensive knowledge of the demise of JP and myself and the subsequent unpleasantness we endured:

"It is difficult being aware of behind the scene information and being unable to air it....lets just say there is no smoke without fire,....tis a good job it doesn't all come out then"

You perpetuate the same rumour started by a 1 Star many years ago after my first novel was published (long story involving an "off the record" briefing to 2 journalists, one of whom ran the story with said 1 Star's name attached) and subsequently withdrawn with an apology.

I understand some around here have difficulty in giving up their anonymity, but I would welcome the chance of talking to you so you can explain your background and, again in private, how my actions led to the loss of our aircraft and incarceration. You have my word that I will never make your identity public, nor, if you want, your thoughts on the issue. Please PM me if you'd like my number.

Dual ground

25th Mar 2009, 12:26

Well I don't know about "mud-movers", after wading through this thread the term "mud-slingers" comes to mind more readily. As an ex-RAF JNCO I don't know why I should be surprised or disappointed, but still I find that I am.

At a time when the armed forces require public support and understanding this is not, in my opinion at least, the kind of thing that really needs to be appearing on a public forum. Officers and Gentlemen.... I am afraid that in the case of some of the individuals contributing to this thread they seem to have forgotten the second part of that phrase.

Clockwork Mouse

25th Mar 2009, 12:42

Well said Dual Ground.

As a retired Pongo with strong family RAF connections, I have been following this thread with mounting incredulity and, I must say, growing embarrassment. What an unedifying spectacle, to observe professional service aviators, most of them presumably officers, indulge in personal and very public slander of fellow officers. Shame on you. You dishonour yourselves and the profession.

A redeeming element in this sordid spat is the dignified, balanced and articulate replies from JN in response to the scurrilous, irrelevant (to this thread) and mean-minded attacks that were launched on his character and integrity. And for Roger Sofarover to tell him to “back down” and to describe his input as “incendiary” and “pompous” just leaves me speechless. Which, having expressed my disgust, I shall now be.