Group 1 Phase 1 question...

[johnhe]

A while back I was in conversation with a chap who was flying with 100sqn. We were talking about his flying training, and I asked him how difficult he found the transition from the Jet Provost to the Hawk. He surprised me by saying ‘Not as difficult as the transition from the JP3 to the JP5’. In fact he went on to say he virtually breezed phase 2 but went on review during phase 1 and was nearly chopped. There was a lot to talk about in a short space of time so I didn’t pursue this point.

However, from someone who has never experienced any military flying training, it has left me puzzled as to why a transition within the same aircraft type would appear to have been be so much more difficult than the move from basic trainer to advanced.

I wondered if anyone had similar experiences or could suggest reasons for this?

[BEagle]

Perhaps it's more about overall experience than the aircraft itself?

Back in 1974, there was a stupid test called the 'conversion handling check' at RAFC Cranwell which low hours students had to pass before graduating from the JP3 to the JP5. One chap nearly went on review after failing it; he later went on to become a test pilot on the Eurofighter!

When I went from the JP3 to the JP5, the CHC had been binned. I found it quite a jump - especially the flapless go-around! But the JP5 was a lovely aeroplane comapred with that leaden old slug, the JP3.

I knew that the next jump, from the JP5 to the Gnat, would be a big one. So studied the books hard and listened to my QFI - then found initial conversion to be less demanding than I'd thought.

Given sufficient training, I'm sure that the jump from the JP5 to the Hawk would have been a breeze - certainly easier than to the Gnat!

[Hummingfrog]

In My Day (Ex19GE) we went from Chipmunk to JP5A now that was fun as the JP landed faster than the Chipmunk went downwind and you had to remember to put the wheels down!:E

HF

[The Real Slim Shady]

I loved the JP5: quick (300 at LL), comfy( it needed a fag lighter and some armrests), quiet ( Anything would be quiet after the 3) and it only had an hour's fuel.

The Hunters at Valley were slums in comparison but the F6s went like hot snot!

[Ali Qadoo]

I think it very much depends on the individual. Having gone through the 'Green Shield' system I don't know much about the JP3 but I found that the BFTS course, including Gp1 Phase1 was pretty much a re-run of the UAS Bulldog course and, being the idle little sh1t that I was, I did the min possible to get through.

The big jump and major shock to the system was the Hawk course at Valley. I spent the first half of the course effectively water skiing behind the aircraft and had to clean my act up in a very big way in order to pass the course.

Whether it's an aircraft change, role change or whatever, a shock to the system like that does a chap a power of good and instantly dispels any notion that one is the ace of the base.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

I echo all the sentiments above. However, the plain fact is that the JP3 had 1750lb of thrust, whilst the JP5 had 2500lb..... that's about 40% increase in an a/c that weighs only a little extra.!

As has been mentioned, the result for the very novice pilot is an accelerating of the world, which his poor little brain isn't ready for! Ironically, the jump to the Hawk I found easier, as general 'tooling' about was done at similar speeds, and it was an altogether more grown up environment.

Advo

[Dan Winterland]

Having done BFT and QFIing Cranditz, I only ever flew the 3 on my CFS course. It was a bit of a shock to open the throttle, hear all that noise just to have the thing trundle forward slowly. Half way down the ruway and still not at flying speed - I was considering giving up and taking it back to the engineers to be fixed.

The the Gp1 Ph1 course is the main difference, not the aircraft type. Those of us who did both courses on the 5 had problems enough. It was a fairly big step up in required ability, capacity and attitude. I had little/none/poor in these three categories, and I went to fly the Jetstream after the JP instead of the Hawk.

[BEagle]

The Jetstream - what an awful POS that thing was! Poor control harmony, absurdly complicated engines, every conceivable way of generating electricity short of the Wimshurst Machine, unreliable autopilot - and they 'taught' you to try to fly the b*stard thing as a one man band rather than as a multi-crew aeroplane....

Nosewheel steering was absurdly heavy and imprecise; differential power and brakes worked fine, but 'they' wouldn't allow you to do use that!

Definitely the worst aircraft bearing a roundel that I ever flew. I'm sure it was invented to make ME flying seem difficult!

[aw ditor]

As one who was there at the time, it was invented/bought to help keep the Jetstream alive commercially and to replace the rapidly ageing Varsity. Another political aeroplane? It was that or the Kingair 200 which of course we now have in the ME stream'. Essentially it was the ex Handley Page (who had gone bust) aeroplane with French helicopter engines! Commercially with the 31 and the 41 it went on to be a modest success. The ME stream was going through a very difficult phase at the time and we ended up mothballing the Jetstream and its Sim. whilst pushing re-treads through Hamble, another political decision, before the stream was resuscitated'.

[27mm]

Quite apart from the step change in performance from the JP3 to the JP5, was the change to the P-mask, instead of that horrible green thing that smelled like the inside of an old wellie. Fairly certain this was the cause of many early episodes of airsickness for some mates.

[Madbob]

I endorse every word you say re the Jetstream! Thank goodnes the METS Cse was "only" c. 55 hours! I did 57.45 before it got the better of me......

MB

[BEagle]

27mm, that horrid thing combined with a UAS hangover of biblical proportions most Saturdays, used to make me barf in the Chipmunk in my early days...

So I loosened the elastic straps and kept my snout out of the green rubber thing, drank a little less on Friday evenings, then all was fine. By the time I flew the JP3 I was immune to that stink of rubber.

Madbob, I understand that an ETPS preview assessment of the loathsome Jetstream concluded that the C130 would make a good lead-in trainer for the horrible thing.