France rejoin NATO? [Archive]

BelArgUSA

11th Mar 2009, 22:54

When it comes to anti-French, anti-UK, anti-USA "popular antics" I wish that people would educate theirselves.
xxx
About France, and white flags...?
(1) Remember World War I (1914-1918) - The French fought valiantly.
(2) World War II (1939-1945) - yes, they surrendered in June 1940... but their "Resistance" against Nazis was the most effective of Western Europe. They bought havoc to their railroads tracks and bridges used for Nazi logistics. They helped thousands of downed aircrews to escape/return to UK.
(3) Their armed forces took active part to 1944 D Day for the liberation of France.
(4) They received very little help in Indochina (1954). Was it an excuse for US to make their Vietnam War ten years later...?
(5) Yet they took part as NATO member, to the Korean War (1950-1953). France was to the side of UK, for the Suez Canal (1956).
(6) Asking help again (1958) for Algeria (then a French Metropole Province) they received NO help, paving the way for DeGaulle's anti-US attitude.
(7) If DeGaulle policies had continued, UK would never been part of EU.
(8) The French always liked Americans, at worst they question US politics. I think UK does it too.
(9) Sarkozy is strongly pro-US, pro-UK and pro-NATO politician. Their forces are in Afghanistan NOW.
xxx
So criticize France... Shows you to be poorly informed about that nation.
They still put flowers to the military cemeteries in Flanders, and Normandy.
And yes, I like French cheeses and French wines...
xxx
:ok:
Happy contrails

TheInquisitor

12th Mar 2009, 00:50

(9) Sarkozy is strongly pro-US, pro-UK and pro-NATO politician. Their forces are in Afghanistan NOW.

...doing 4/5 of f**k all, unless you count pi$$ing it up in 'KAIA Napa' as a contribution to the war effort. God forbid we'd find them anywhere there is any actual fighting going on...

At least they built their own chow hall....which they don't let anybody else use...

NutLoose

12th Mar 2009, 03:57

They also helped out in so many ways during the Falklands war, providing information on the Exocet, delaying deliveries to Argentina and providing combat training against Aircraft the Argentinians operated............

So don't knock them.

Wiley

12th Mar 2009, 06:25

but their "Resistance" against Nazis was the most effective of Western EuropeCare to elaborate on that? I think you'll find that most WW2 historians give that accolade to the Norwegians.

Despite Allied propaganda to the contrary, the French "Resistance" was small and marginalised and looked upon as terrorists by the vast majority of the French population - until August 1944 - when magically, damn near everyone turned out to be a (very) secret member of that same resistance.

The exception were the Communists, who became very active against the Germans after Sept 41, but who were looked upon as dangerous radicals by the vast majority of the French. Most of those communists - (the few who survived the Germans and the very active Milice) - were promptly locked up by the post Vichy government and many ex-Milice were employed by the new government to continue locking up the very same people they'd been chasing under Vichy.

In mitigation, I'd say the majority of most nations tend to go with the flow and take the easy course, whoever is in power, and the French who did fight in the Resistance and others who went to England to join De Gaulle were very brave people indeed.

PPRuNeUser0139

12th Mar 2009, 06:27

Your points are all well made but these will only enrage the Daily Mail readers in this forum as they'll be itching to drag out the same old same old tired witty stereotypes yet again.. (cheese eating surrenders monkeys, blah blah)

Sarko would be damned by this same element here if he kept France out of NATO and he'll be damned by them for returning to the fold..:ugh:

Pontius Navigator

12th Mar 2009, 07:32

BelArgUSA also missed out Suez in 1956 and GW1 in 1992. In the latter the French were, I believe, the first with the post-attack videoes on the news.

racedo

12th Mar 2009, 09:51

When I hear stuff thrashing France I always look up WW1 Casualty list and get reminded of the sheer level of casualties that France suffered.

Casualties of World War 1 - World War 1 Killed and Casualties (http://europeanhistory.about.com/cs/worldwar1/a/blww1casualties.htm)

75% casualty rate of those mobilised suffered by France.

If UK had the same casualty rate would it have changed the way the Govt had done things later and the likelihood is that it would have.

If UK had suffered same casualty rate it would have added another 41% (280,000) to those who had died and 81% (1.4 Million) more to those who were wounded.

Travelling through rural areas in UK and France I have often stopped and looked at the War Memorials saying a silent prayer in recognition for their sacrifice and with guide books they give you an idea roughly of current population. Most particularly in France counting the names and getting to 125 and finding out current population in the surrounding area in only 175 gives you an idea of the sacrifice across France. I have yet to come across anything like that scale in the UK.

I can understand why a World War 1 hero such as Petain made peace in 1940 having watched the wholescale slaughter in WW1 and the wiping of a generation and being unable to do it a second time.

BelArgUSA

12th Mar 2009, 11:34

Friends
xxx
I gave my personal opinion about France, a country and culture I know well, as I am a native of Brussels, Belgium (French was my language). The constant criticism of French politics by many in UK, and USA, is often not deserved. Having lived 25 years in USA (1969-1993), I never failed to defend France when criticized by anti-French Americans, as much as I defended USA or UK when they in turn were criticized by the French I would meet on my frequent visits in France...
xxx
Pontius Navigator
Sorry, I made a typo - 1958 for 1956 in mentioning the Suez Canal.
xxx
Wiley
Gladly will elaborate . My mother, born 1925, and young lady during WW2 was a "messenger" passing papers and scrolls inside her bicycle frame (removing the seat post) and when stopped by Nazis guards, she would flirt them and offer them a "date" for a dance the next saturday... Incidentally, she was part of a Communist cell (many in Belgium as well). She also escorted half a dozen downed aircrews, RAF and USAAF back into France, some all the way to the Spanish border, the airmen disguised as Flemish workers as they spoke no French, with false ID provided by her Resistance group. I owe my "being in the world" to a USAAF 2nd Lt, and the numerous haystacks they probably used to spend the night on the way to the Spanish border in 1943. Agree with you, the Norwegian, the Dutch, the Danes did a great job too, I would personally have thought that the Yugoslavs of Tito were the best at it. I grew up as a kid, around many people who were in the Resistance, or escaped to UK to join the miltary. My stepfather was in the Belgian Brigade, attached to the Canadian Army on D Day Normandy (Brigade Piron), my uncle, with the RAF.
xxx
So, still having UK-France animosity, ever since Hastings 1066...?
Time to forget it, except for soccer or rugby...
xxx
:ok:
Happy contrails

Pontius Navigator

12th Mar 2009, 11:41

So, still having UK-France animosity, ever since Hastings 1066...?

Non, non, Agincourt and Owen Glendower, but of course he was Welsh.

Evanelpus

12th Mar 2009, 11:46

They also helped out in so many ways during the Falklands war, providing information on the Exocet,

I should bloody well think so, they gave the missiles to the Argies in the first place.

I love Sarkozy, he reminds me so much of Mr Bean.

FrustratedFormerFlie

12th Mar 2009, 12:24

I reckon he's hoping if he joins we'll tell him where our subs are, so ours and his stop bumping into each other . . .

tornadoken

12th Mar 2009, 12:53

BelArg is spot on. France never left NATO: from 1/7/66 she stopped participating in ACE/AFCENT and other fora...but stayed at Council level, retaining Ops compatibility if not integration. CDG held one Nation intact despite internal stress: "apres moi le deluge". France's elite, 1930s-90s, was informed by 1936 near-descent into Spanish-style Left/ Right Civil War. That, BelAir, not US "pressure" (who has ever pressed a Frenchman?), was the reason CDG quit Algeria: risk of revival of that schism (plus the cost, in treasure and conscript flesh). He did not object to getting up the odd Anglo nose ("defense a tous azimuts"), but during Cuba, 10/62: 'he did not think we would have war but if Soviets forced US in such places as Berlin, France would be with US "France will act in accord with you."' Avalon Project - Cuban Missle Crisis - Telegram From the Embassy in France to the Department of State (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/msc_cuba046.asp).

HQ2, why come in from the cold now? Cost. France has decided that its interests continue to require Power Projection, such as in Africa, and that new, Out-of-Area NATO offers an affordable, coalition-centric means of doing that. So, no PA2 CVF: Task-share with the willing.

Ewan Whosearmy

12th Mar 2009, 16:41

Bel

A great story. Thanks for sharing, and merci beaucoup to your Mother.

Now, the next question on my lips: do you have a war time photo of her?!

knowitall

12th Mar 2009, 16:42

"Task-share with the willing."

we're busy

Airborne Aircrew

12th Mar 2009, 17:54

Task-share with the willing.How bloody cynical can they be... They didn't want to "play" when they didn't think it suited them but now they can profit off leaching of the rest of us they are all for it...

... and they wonder why the rest of the world treat them like a red-headed stepchild... http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/smilies/kick_face.gif

davejb

12th Mar 2009, 18:53

Evanelpus....

I should bloody well think so, they gave the missiles to the Argies in the first place.

remind me again where the Argentinians got their modern destroyers?

There are actually 3 obvious factions in the "frog-bashing" threads :

1 - Francophiles - those who actually quite like the french. Typically composed of those who have actually met Frech chappies, perhaps those who have always admired anyone whose in flight rations include a wine allowance. May know some history, eg Dien Ben Phu. May be old enough to remember a young Miss Bardot.

2 - Banter types. Don't REALLY have anything against the French, it's just a sort of comic device in all honesty, a bit like calling small people lofty and so on. Genuinely just using a stereotype that they know isn't actually accurate because the punchline is actually funny. (This is, in my opinion, the origin of the wickedly humorous 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' phrase - a beautifully expressed piece of work, only lacking in actual factual content).

3 - Genuine Francophobes. Probably never met anyone who is actually French, quite probably spends 23+ hrs a day at the keyboard and has hygiene issues.

I try to be type 1, but have a bad habit of being type 2
:}

BEagle

12th Mar 2009, 20:04

May be old enough to remember a young Miss Bardot.

Err, most certainly!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/BB.jpg

That should get the "Nurse, quickly please!" alarms going at the old PPRuNers rest home!

mick2088

12th Mar 2009, 20:35

http://doctorbulldog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/bridget_bardot_1.jpg

Phwoar!

Airborne Aircrew

12th Mar 2009, 20:54

Davejb:

You forgot a type:-

4. Those that have known many actual French persons some of whom are very nice people. Those that try very hard to always speak, in a limited fashion, French when in France while speaking to French people. Those that have been spat on by a 60-70 year old Frenchman while, at 16 years of age in a cafe in a village in the middle of nowhere, trying to politely order a coffee for himself and his similarly aged friend in French and _not_ making a mistake in translation. Those that have watched, for 30 years, their "superior" and arrogant national image parade itself across the worldwide political landscape as if they are truly relevant. Those that have watched them, as they are doing now, play international politics so that it gives them a benefit while turning their back when it is to their cost or when their profit would be removed or reduced by doing what is in the best interests of the majority.

There are those of us who can actually see through the French national persona. As I said above, there are some very nice French people... But as a nation... Well... they continually, seemingly intentionally, come up short

BEagle

12th Mar 2009, 20:57

mick2088, that should get the Air Engineers drooling!

I prefer the young BB, personally...:E

davejb

12th Mar 2009, 21:53

Mick,
the advantage of beng able to remember the lady in photo 1 is helped enormously by the ability of the aged to simply disbelieve stark reality as per photo 2....

AA - to be honest I think that describes every nation on Earth, including our own... pig ignorance is a human trait, not a national one.

Airborne Aircrew

12th Mar 2009, 22:02

AA - to be honest I think that describes every nation on Earth, including our own... pig ignorance is a human trait, not a national one.

I can't deny your premise but I can say that, like cooking and making wine, the French have elevated it to an art form.

Green Flash

12th Mar 2009, 22:37

Ok,ok, assuming that the Frogs are back on side, what do they bring to the party, in real terms? ie capability, unique assets, force multipliers etc etc that can change the way NATO does it's day to day buisness (lots of SH and AT in a sandy place would be a bloody good start, by the way!!). What does this do to the price of (NATO) fish? Genuine question:confused:

glad rag

12th Mar 2009, 22:42

mini

12th Mar 2009, 23:53

"Ok,ok, assuming that the Frogs are back on side, what do they bring to the party, in real terms? ie capability, unique assets, force multipliers etc etc that can change the way NATO does it's day to day buisness (lots of SH and AT in a sandy place would be a bloody good start, by the way!!). What does this do to the price of (NATO) fish? Genuine questionhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif"

Well you get to serve alongside the Foreign Legion for one... :E

The Helpful Stacker

13th Mar 2009, 06:41

Hmmm that reminds me, I must buy a new hunting accordian before the new season starts.

Pontius Navigator

13th Mar 2009, 07:40

Glad Rag, quite right. In about 1912/13 the birth rate was dropping to, IIRC, less than 2 per couple so the population was shrinking. This was in contrast to Germany with a higher birth rate and increasing population.

This caused the leadership to increase conscription from 2 years to 3. By 1917 the strength of the military would have increased by 50% and their trained potential by 30%. This was a threat to Germany whose war plan called for a lightning attack on the French before a second assault on their Russian allies. A stronger French army would put those plans in jeopardy.

Law of unintended consequences perhaps?

tonker

13th Mar 2009, 10:11

So lets get this right:

They let everybody do their fighting and dieing for them.

They eat and drink well.

They have a great climate.

They think having a mistress is a birth right, and to do otherwhise might question their sexuality.......

COOL

Pontius Navigator

13th Mar 2009, 10:37

And to the party? More AWACs, tankers, CV, wine, and quite a few FJ I imagine.

barry lloyd

13th Mar 2009, 10:45

This caused the leadership to increase subscription

Pontious - did you mean CONscription?

If I was being really cynical, I could suggest that France is re-joining NATO/OTAN in order to put them in a stronger position to bid for work for their underemployed but very significant defence industry.

Pontius Navigator

13th Mar 2009, 11:03

Barry, ty, it was early.

Green Flash

13th Mar 2009, 13:07

Well you get to serve alongside the Foreign Legion for one...
They eat and drink well.
wine,

Ah, so I'm not the only one who has, ahem, 'suffered' a Legion etrangere Sunday lunch in the field?! (oh, allright then, Kabul - but I now know where the European red wine lake has gone - allot of it's in me .....:\)

Yeoman_dai

13th Mar 2009, 14:33

Anyone who knows about the Old Guard at Waterloo, and the job they did shepherding Napoleon away from the battlefield - lockstep, in square the whole way, stopping everytime Allied Cav got close enough to let off a volley to drive them away, then continuing. Modern day they do a bloody good job in Africa

Still, it's far more fun to adhere to national sterotypes, isn't it...

I had a mate who was at Saint-Cyr (he failed to get into Sandhurst) and was shocked that at nights they didn't bother sending out patrols... their view was, whats the point, they couldn't see, they'd deal with it in the morning! He was probably lying, but it made me chuckle at the time.

izod tester

13th Mar 2009, 14:51

A recent question on QI (A UK television programme) asked which was the most successful european nation in military terms since 1066. The answer was the French.

The numbers given were:

Of 125 major European wars since 1495, the French have fought in 50, more than Austria (47) and England (43).

Out of a total 168 battles since 387BC, they won 109, lost 49 and drew 10.

The French made a major contribution to NATO operations in the Balkans in 1997. The US initially issued a directive that NATO forces in Bosnia were to be "dry". It was the French who said "non", it was a condition of their service that wine was to be available with meals.

Airborne Aircrew

13th Mar 2009, 16:05

Of 125 major European wars since 1495, the French have fought in 50, more than Austria (47) and England (43).My Bold

How many did they win?

Out of a total 168 battles since 387BC, they won 109, lost 49 and drew 10.My Bold...

How many did they fight without international assistance?

There's lied, damn lies and statistics... I'd love to see the basis for these claims. Furthermore, suspicion is immediately raised when the first statistic is limited to a period only after 1495 and the second statistic begins in 387BC, (before the country of France existed). Funnily enough, if one does the maths, this means that the French have fought 168 battles in 2396 years - or a battle every 14 years. Worse yet they have fought in wars who's average number of battles was 3.36...

Sorry, the figures don't make sense...

Pontius Navigator

13th Mar 2009, 16:23

One source I found cited 28 war that France has been in since 1945. I believe this may be more than UK and having had time to think through a few I make UK just 22.

UK would include things like Mau Mau, EOKA, Radfan and so on.

Airborne Aircrew

13th Mar 2009, 16:28

The stat was since 1495 not 1945... ;)

Yeoman_dai

13th Mar 2009, 16:31

Go to google, type in 'french military victories' and hit 'i'm feeling lucky'

*snigger*

i'd like to re-iterate I have a lot of respect for the french military. I just like national stereotypes

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

13th Mar 2009, 16:34

Ah, that’s when we get into the semantics of armed conflict, counter insurgency, peace keeping and general aid to the civil power. We still haven’t titled the expedition to the South Atlantic in ’82 as war.

Pontius Navigator

13th Mar 2009, 16:38

AA, and that stat was flawed, or so we are told. 1945 is easier to check. For the UK I omitted CW 1, 2 and 3 which were 3-0 to the home side :(

aviate1138

14th Mar 2009, 11:15

Laugh and the World laughs with you, so........

AS FRANCE REJOINS NATO, A REMINDER OF WHY WE NEVER MISSED THEM

Q: What do you call 100,000 Frenchmen with their hands up ?
A: The army

Q: Why are there so many tree-lined boulevards in France ?
A: Germans liked to march in the shade.

Q: Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney ?
A: Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender.

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me"
General George S. Patton

Q: How do the French advertise surplus World War 11 rifles ?
A: Never fired, only dropped once.

Q: What's the difference between Frenchmen and toast ?
A: You can make soldiers out of toast.

Q: How many Frenchman does it take to defend Paris ?
A: Nobody knows, it's never been tried.

A long time ago, the British and French were at war. During one battle, the French captured an English Major. They took the major to their HQ and a French general began to question him.
The French general asked:"Why do you English officers all wear red coats ? Don't you know the red material makes you easy targets for us to shoot?"
In his debonair English way, the major informed the general that the reason Englih officers wear red coats is so that if they are shot, the blood won't show, and the men they are leading won't panic.
And that is why from that day to now, all French army officers wear brown pants.

Lossie23

14th Mar 2009, 11:38

With all this talk of the French, how good do our guys/girls rate the French Air Force/Navy/Army pilots and their tactics (am not asking for any to be revealed), just did our chaps/chapettes think they were any good when they flew against/with them or operated alongside them. Also were there groundcrew/ops etc people any good at turning round fixing aircraft etc etc. The French do seem to have some good kit, but do they use it well? In effect, political leanings aside are they good in a fight? Afterall, they are going to be formally in NATO...again. I know they have been in some coalitions for ops and still are eg Afghan.

Ali Qadoo

14th Mar 2009, 11:59

Lossie23,

I was lucky enough to do an exchange tour with the French Air Force a while back. It's a very different environment to the RAF and the quality of their crewroom banter leaves a lot to be desired - needless to say, they tell similar harmless anti-British jokes based on national stereotypes - no offence meant, none taken but the culture of p*ss-taking doesn't exist in the same way as it does in the RAF.

The kit was by and large excellent. The Mirage 2000C is a superb aircraft: easy to fly, extremely reliable (that was one of the biggest differences I noted coming from an F-4 background) and it had a highly effective built-in ECM suite - no draggy pods on pylons, now there's a thought. The guys who operated it were certainly comparable with their NATO counterparts and more than held their own on the ACMI, on ops and elsewhere.

The engineers were good too and were capable of deploying the squadron overseas remarkably quickly - on a det in Saudi during the 1990s we had 40 troops looking after 8 aircraft whereas our neighbours on the ramp, an RAF GR1 outfit, had 240 people looking after 6 aircraft.

So from personal experience and as one who's all for non-PC banter at every opportunity, I'd say, "Welcome aboard, Messieurs les Grenouilles."

spheroid

14th Mar 2009, 12:08

whereas our neighbours on the ramp, an RAF GR1 outfit, had 240 people looking after 6 aircraft

A bit of a mis type there Ali. That can't possibly be correct.....that would be 40 maintainers per aircraft....

mick2088

14th Mar 2009, 12:22

Depends on what you call good kit. The French Ministry of Defence PR machine was working overtime a few weeks ago trying to demonstrate the country's important role in Afghanistan with fancy videos of the French Army displaying their BV206S vehicles to American forces in addition to sending their high-tech UAVs, uparmoured VABs and a handful of Tiger attack helicopters. Meanwhile, the UK looks to dump the larger Viking versions in favour of buying new vehicles from Singapore as they are not up to job, while the equipment brigade continues to shout foul over the British forces having a lack of suitable armoured vehicles and helicopters. France spent a staggering 100 million euros or so on new equipment specifically for Afghanistan last year while the UK's spending runs into several billions annually. All very fine, but unless France is going to match its commitment to having a bigger say in NATO ops that includes sharing as much burden as other NATO allies (obviously other the US) both financially and in terms of boots on the ground [fighting that is], all this is a pretty pointless exercise.

Ali Qadoo

14th Mar 2009, 12:22

Spheroid,

I agree that it seems a lot of people per aircraft and I admit that it was a long time ago, but those were the numbers I was given by one of their SNCOs. There may've been a misunderstanding in that he included all the people on the GR1 det not just the engineers, but what I didn't mention in the earlier post - in the interests of brevity - was that during the same det there was a visit from some fairly highly-paid RAF help (one-star ish I seem to recall) who I hosted when he visited our Mirage 2000 unit. He point-blank refused to believe that we could maintain an operational capability with so few engineers for 8 aircraft.

Even allowing for rapidly-approaching senility, I don't think those numbers were too far adrift, but whether I'm right or not (and I'll be the first to put my hand up if I'm talking carp) the point I'm trying to make is that the French are very good at going to an operational theatre in double-quick time, with a small number of bods and being up and running in no time flat. They've had a lot of practice in places like Chad and they seem to have learned the lesson that reliability is a highly effective force-multiplier.

DC10RealMan

14th Mar 2009, 12:40

To all those people, particularly Americans who criticise the French nation and their military history I have only one thing to say "Go to Verdun and walk the battlefield" if you did you would feel ashamed of your comments whether they are serious or not. The battle of Verdun took place in 1916 when the U.S. Army was chasing Pancho Villa around New Mexico.

BelArgUSA

14th Mar 2009, 13:43

The British fight for honour...
While the French fight for money.
Everyone fights for what they lack.
(s)
Robert Surcouf, corsair - circa 1815...
:D

ian16th

14th Mar 2009, 19:52

I had the pleasure and privilege to spend a year of my RAF Service with the Armée de l’ Air, on the Royal Air Force Liaison Party that was at Base Aérienne 125 Istres and then moved to Base Aérienne 115 Orange-Caritat in May 1958.

It was the best year of the 13 that I served with the RAF.

Yes the French do some things differently; some of the differences were appreciated. Free and plentiful wine with lunch and dinner was but a small one. But just like RAF camps, things varied. At Istres the food was good, not so at Orange. The accommodation was better at Orange, but it was too far from Marseilles for a Saturday night out.

At Istres I was lucky enough to see the Leduc ramjet fly, at Orange there was Escadron de chasse 2/5 with Mystère IV’s. At this time their availability seemed to compare with RAF Squadrons.

I was at Orange when CDG was elected and that night I ‘supped some stuff’ with Armée de l’ Air friends. It was a night of great rejoicing. What they thought a year or two later I don’t know. His actions over Algeria were not what the military expected.

And BB was young and beautiful at this time, she decorated the newspapers with great regularity.

I for one, welcome their return to the NATO family.

Pontius Navigator

14th Mar 2009, 20:25

I remember one day at Akrotiri two Mirage IV pitched up unannounced followed a while later by one or two KC135. They were exercising their right as a CENTO power to come to Akrotiri and completely ignored the PPR and dipclear rules.

They duly filed to the mess cellar, collected all their duty free and departed.

We let them.

Can you imagine them allowing a number of our jets to simply pitch up and go shopping?

When we went into Merignac apart from providing transport to our hotel they also took us to Carrefour for our shopping. Again, can you imagine MT laying on a run to Tesco?

I think it is a question of style.

Airborne Aircrew

14th Mar 2009, 21:04

I think it is a question of style.

It's style that wins wars... Didn't you get the memo?

ian16th

15th Mar 2009, 09:46

Pontius

The French in CENTO?

I too was at Akrotiri, my time was 62 to 64. The three Canberra squadrons there were assigned to CENTO. I went to Karachi through Tehran on a CENTO exercise in December 63. But France was never a member of CENTO.

To quote Wiki: The Central Treaty Organization (also referred to as CENTO, original name was Middle East Treaty Organization or METO, also known as the Baghdad Pact) was adopted in 1955 by Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey, and the United Kingdom. In 1958, the United States joined the military committee of the alliance. It was dissolved in 1979.

AlpineSkier

15th Mar 2009, 15:33

@The Inquisitor

Have just seen your post about the French just pi**ing about in Kabul.

I don't hold any position to either side but I remember reading in my local (French) paper 4-6 weeks ago that they lost 6-12 killed in an ambush that lasted several hours and they ran out of ammunition.

Today I read that another soldier was killed.

Without getting into an demeaning dispute about whose KIA are greater, I don't think it's either honest or respectful to say the French are doing nothing.

mick2088

15th Mar 2009, 18:41

They are certainly not doing nothing. It could be said that they have not been doing enough. The response in France to that ambush was similar to the UK, including the cry that their forces were ill-equipped for the job. The French MoD's response, an order for just four or five American Buffalo MRAP vehicles plus uparmoured VABs as well as a consideration of possible leasing of further MRAP vehicles.

There is something like 600 French troops now deployed in eastern Afghanistan as part of Battle Group Kapisa that are more engaged in daily fighting alongside US and Afghan forces.

French MoD news piece over the weekend:

"From 14 March to Saturday morning, a battalion (Kandak) from the Afghan National Army has undertaken Alas valley in order to resume the land held by the insurgents. It is supported by over 400 French soldiers of the Battle Group Kapisa arms and large aircraft of the coalition (Predator drones, A10 and F15 fighters, helicopters Kiowa).

Rushed into their sanctuaries for the Afghan army, the insurgents have responded throughout the day. They have very likely been losses. The Afghan military deplore half a dozen wounded. During these clashes, a French soldier was slightly injured before being evacuated to hospital in Bagram.

The Franco-Afghan forces take the field. As night fell, an insurgent gets an anti-tank rocket in a French VAB. The driver, a corporal of the 27e Bataillon de Chasseurs Alpins was killed."

Around 3400 French soldiers are in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Indian Ocean, in the context of the ISAF and Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF). Among them, 2800 French soldiers committed in the territory of Afghanistan. "

ian16th

15th Mar 2009, 19:36

mick2088

15th Mar 2009, 21:01

Around 3400 French soldiers are in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Indian Ocean, in the context of the ISAF and Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF). Among them, 2800 French soldiers committed in the territory of Afghanistan. "

Just whereabouts are these forces in the Indian Ocean? Mayotte?

I would figure so. Perhaps they are also counting personnel onboard French naval vessels, assuming there are any in the Indian Ocean at the moment.

taxydual

15th Mar 2009, 21:24

BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | France's rendezvous with history (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7942086.stm)

Vive la France, and sod everyone else.

tornadoken

19th Mar 2009, 22:01

Prof Dr. R.Aldous (Hd of History, UC Dublin), Macmillan, Eisenhower and the Cold War, 4 Courts Press, 2005 gives archive attribution for these:
U-2, May,1960: (P.150:) 'Encouraged by his old friend (Mac) to humiliate himself (by apologising to Khrushchev, Ike reflected) on de Gaulle's loyal promise that 'whatever happens, I want you to know that I am with you to the end'. (CDG) was a difficult and irritating partner but in a real crisis, his support was unquestioned.'
Cuba,1962: (P.197: ) Dean Acheson was told by CDG 'to tell your president that France supports him unreservedly. [...]We are beside you'.

Baron rouge

21st Mar 2009, 20:52

Evanelpus said:

They also helped out in so many ways during the Falklands war, providing information on the Exocet,

I should bloody well think so, they gave the missiles to the Argies in the first place.

This is to show how amnesic the brits are:rolleyes:

When the war in the falkland broke out, the french had only delivered 5 exocet to the Argies who sunk 4 Brit vessels not bad for a French bit of kit.

But to be honest I must admit that on the bits of missiles, you could easily read "made in the UK" so Bae, shares the responsability and the profits made on those missiles:D

Banter appart, my best years in the Armée de l'Air were when I spent three years with the RAF at VALLEY 82/83 and CHIVENOR 83/85 great flying, great fun, and good for the familly too:ok: