RT Practical exam

[madgav]

Hi All,
I'm in the latter stages of my PPL training and wondering how to proceed with the RT practical exam. I've comlpleted 6 of the 7 written exams (all except RT) by personal study. I'm doing the same for the RT written exam which I need to get done before the end of April (due to the 18 month validity period - my first exam pass was on 19/10/07). If I read LASORS correcly the validity of the two RT exams is extended from 12 to 24 months for FRTOL issue, if I also complete the RT practical exam before the end of April.
I have the following options:
(1) Do the written exam, practice loads of calls and hope for the best in the practical exam;
(2) 3-day course held locally with group limited to 3 or 4 students (hence lots of personal tuition), but which costs £350 :eek: including the two exams;
(3) Online course such as Flight Radio Telephony Home Study Course (http://www.flightrt.co.uk), costs £150 but you have to wait 12 weeks :rolleyes: for all of the lessons (which makes it a non starter for me).
Has anyone done an RT practical exam lately? What is the best way to go about it? I know what to expect with the written exams by now, but the practical exam is a bit of an unknown :uhoh:.
I posted this on my flying club's forum here (http://www.ulsterflyingclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65&st=0&sk=t&sd=a), and got mixed responses.
Thanks
Gav.
My website (http://www.madgav.org)
My PPL diary (http://www.gmcc0266.plus.com/ppl.htm)

[DaveD]

I've recently just done it.

Ask yourself these questions.

Can you do the following?
Initial call on the ground and reply.
Initial call in the air and the reply.
Position Reports.
Direction Finding calls.
Route Clearance.
Conditional Clearance.
Mayday call.
Pan call.

If you can do the following then take your comms written and take the practical. Theres no tricks involved with the RT Practical. Look at CAP413 on the CAA website too, that tells you what to do in each instance.

I think unless your RT in the air is very poor then 150 pounds for a 3 day course is a waste.

[Redbird72]

I paid 30 quid for an hour's pre-test study, but to be honest the only thing I learnt was how to use the odd machine you do the test on.

There's nothing particularly difficult to it, particularly if you're training from a controlled airfield and regularly use RT in your lessons.

Check whether you are using FIS or Basic - last I heard, none of the examiners have been sent updated papers yet!

[homeguard]

You must first pass the Communications written exam before you can do the R/T Practical.

You will then have 24 months from the date of the Comms exam to apply for your Pilot Licence and also you RT Licence. You may apply for the RT Licence after the PPL is issued if you wish but better to apply for both together.

The RT Practical is essentially a flight which is simulated on a PC or a RT Rig on which you can select channels or actual frequencies. The Examiner will be in a seperate room on another PC or at the master consol of the rig.

The flight will originate at a controlled aerodrome or AFISO attended airfield and end at one or other. During the flight you will penetrate a MATZ, make position reports, report change of level including altitude and Flight Levels. Experience or relay a Mayday, A Pan, obtain a VDF bearing and make transit of Class A Controlled Airspace. You will need also throughout the flight decide on the most appropiate service.

[Duchess_Driver]

The RT practical takes the form of a flight from A to B with various events along the way.

If you've handled the radio on your Nav's without too much problem then the RT practical shouldn't be too taxing. Position fixes, relayed maydays etc are all part of the fun so ensure that you're up to speed on these.

I wouldn't pay for any extra tuition or courses. Your instructor or school probably have a couple of 'mock' practicals for you to experience - that along with CAP413 / Thoms APM / or AFE notes should give you all the examples that you need. I know the APM has a number of example flights in so I'm guessing the others do (sorry, no experience of them!)

As for Basic / FIS - again, I wouldn't worry. You're examiner will be able to cope with whatever you ask for. Discuss what (s)he's expecting with him/her in the preliminaries.

Best of...

DD

[Gav28]

Must admit i found it a non event. I did my RT practical in the UK having done my PPL in the states so i thought i might struggle but it was fine, i just read through the PPL coms book and had a look at CAP 413 and that was that. Certainly wouldn't be paying extra.

If i recall you get time to prepare with the RT exam route before you have to do it. If you have already done navs in UK prior to sitting it must be a doddle.

Best of luck.

[Whopity]

I know what to expect with the written exams by now, but the practical exam is a bit of an unknown . Then read this:http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_07webSSL22.pdf
As for Basic / FIS - again, I wouldn't worry. You're examiner will be able to cope with whatever you ask for. But you will be expected to get it right and it all changes on 12 March!

[madgav]

Thanks for the replies.

First of all I'm not training from a controlled airfield. Newtownards is an A/G. When leaving the circuit we talk to Belfast (city airport) Approach. For general training exercises we are in uncontrolled airspace and just get a FIS (Basic?) from them. I've done a couple of nav-ex's, one solo, which require a zone transit from them on the first leg, but that's it.
I've landed twice at Belfast International (Aldergrove) airport which involved talking to Aldergrove Approach and Tower, but to be honest on the first visit the instructor handled most of the radio work. On the second visit I was still somewhat overwhelmed by the RT. My QXC, when it happens, will involve another trip to Aldergrove and then on to Enniskillen (another A/G). That will be good experience but will not be before the end of April.
There are AFAIK no AFIS and no MATZ in N.Ireland so I have no experience of those. I haven't had to do any position reports, VDF bearings or practice maydays but know roughly what is required.

make transit of Class A Controlled Airspace

Huh? Class A?

You will need also throughout the flight decide on the most appropiate service

Explain!

Your instructor or school probably have a couple of 'mock' practicals for you to experience

I'm not sure this is the case but I can ask.

Then read this:http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_07webSSL22.pdf

Yes, I've read that too.

I've had very few problems with the confuser questions for the written exam but still not confident with regard to the practical exam. I've struggled a bit with the RT, particularly reading back long clearances - too much to remember and not enough time to write it down, especially when you're trying to fly an aeroplane at the same time :ugh:As far as I can see confidence is the key here, if it takes a course or personal tuition to gain it then it's not money wasted. Of course I'd still prefer to spend the money on the flying ;)

[BackPacker]

Madgav, what helped me a lot was buying a (second-hand in my case) airband scanner and simply spending hours and hours listening to all the frequencies that were in use by Schiphol airport.

You'll be getting used to the pace and phraseology very fast and after a while will be able to hear mistakes in readbacks even before hearing the controller correct them.

Especially since it sounds like you're not going to get a lot of exposure to talking to proper ATC (vs. FISO or A/G) in the course of your training due to your location.

The scanner cost me 40 euros at that time although in hindsight I should have invested in a proper transceiver instead.

[madgav]

Hi Backpacker
I do have a scanner and have tried to listen to ATC. Unfortunately quite a few of the frequencies are inaudible where I live, also the calls made by incoming/departiing IFR traffic are somewhat unfamiliar.
Tried listening on the way to work this morning, but reception in the car was cr:mad:p.
I'll keep listening though.
Gav.

[BackPacker]

Gav,

Does your scanner have a twist-off whip antenna? In that case it's really easy to make a home-made antenna (technically called a dipole) with a lot better reception.

You need a bit of RG-58 wire. This is coaxial wire, normally black, with an impedance of 50 ohms and was used in the not-too-distant past for "thin ethernet", to network computers together. Any IT professional or shop with a sense of nostalgia will have miles of the stuff lying around.

Snip the connector off of one end and either splice the core out of the mantle over a distance of 62 cm (1/4 wavelength of the middle of the frequency band), or use some household electricity wire and a few fasteners to attach a bit of 62 cm wire to both the core and the mantle. Spread these so that both pieces of wire are in line with each other, but obviously not electrically connected, and mount the antenna vertically somewhere high up (mine is in the attic). Avoid metallic components when mounting. Works great.

[madgav]

Yes I have the usual whip antenna whose length is not ideal for good reception in the VHF band (it's a wideband scanner). I also have a telescopic antenna which is a bit better.

I should have some RG58 lying around somewhere so I'll try to find some time to make a dipole. If I can waterproof it maybe I can mount it on the roof :}

[BackPacker]

maybe I can mount it on the roof

In that case be careful with grounding/lightning. That was the main reason I decided on mounting it inside.

[homeguard]

Madgav

There could be a number of options with regard to choosing a unit for say a Basic Service. Which would be the most beneficial, you must decide? Things to consider could be a particular knowledge relevant to your flight. Such as one LARS unit may also be a Danger Area Information Service another within range is not. If the danger Area was of relevance to your flight then that would be the decider. A particular ATS unit may provide a service within a limited range which is promulgated. Are you and will you remain within that range etc. A number of ATS units may be available but should you require a 'Traffic Service', one can provide that another not. You then decide which to use.

Should you be required to transit controlled airspace then ask yourself what class it is, 'A', 'C' or 'D' and therefore subject to what rules are you requiring the transit. According to your given qualifications you decide not the controller!

The test then is more than simply spurting standard phrases. You must know how to use the system and that is primarily what is being assessed.

[Whopity]

I think option 2 the course sounds like a good bet. It takes typically 16 hours to train someone to the required standard and that opinion is based on a number of examiners who have run courses overa number of years.

[madgav]

Homeguard
Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated, but
ask yourself what class it is, 'A', 'C' or 'D'Surely the only controlled airspace a PPL will encounter is class D or E? Or is there something else lurking in the practical exam?

Whopity
That's the problem I'm having. My confidence on the radio long-term is worth the expense, but £350 is still a heck of a lot of dosh and before going down that route I would want to make very sure it's necessary. If it was half the cost I wouldn't be asking the question, I'd just do it.

[madgav]

In that case be careful with grounding/lightning. That was the main reason I decided on mounting it inside.Fair point :) I do already have 2 TV aerials up there (on the roof) though :uhoh:

[homeguard]

Madgay

I suggest that you read up on the flight rules for transit of Class A in detail.

[Keygrip]

madgav - how much will the two radio tests cost at the place you are at? That price should be deducted from the cost of the course - as the course fee includes them.

Anywhere near half the price now?

The course is, actually, only £20 per hour (assuming Whopity's 16 hours) even if you don't include the two exams.

Not bad, really (though I appreciate that any £'s are difficult just now).

[madgav]

Homeguard
If I remember correctly (it's been 17 months since I passed air law):
- VFR flight is not permitted in Class A airspace
- A basic PPL holder may cross under the base of an airway with appropriate clearance
- An instrument rated pilot may transit the airway with appropriate clearance
- An SVFR clearance may in special circumstances be given to operate in a control zone in conditions normally requiring IFR flight.
- Class C airspace is >FL195 and therefore unlikely to be encountered by a basic PPL.
(I apologise in advance if I have omitted something by the way :uhoh::ouch:)

What I was hinting at, without explicitly asking the question, was: Are IFR calls and SVFR clearances included in the RT practical exam? I asked this in the thread on my club's forum but didn't get a clear answer one way or another.

Madgay:eek::eek::eek::}

Keygrip
The costs listed on the website are £10 for the written exam and £60 for the practical. I'm not sure if these are necessarily up to date.
Giving an effective cost for the course of £280.
I did take this into account, i.e. half the cost = £140 + exam fees :) since the exam fees have to be paid no matter what way I go with this.
The course is actually 3 days so it's better than £20 per hour.
I'm ok with this but before spending the dosh I want to be sure I'm spending it on something I need - a lot of the advice I've had, including from my instructor, has cast doubt on this....

[Whopity]

Surely the only controlled airspace a PPL will encounter is class D or E? Or is there something else lurking in the practical exam?
The RT Licence entitles you to operate the radio station in any aircraft, it is not confined to the privileges of a PPL!

[homeguard]

Madgav

The RT Practical dosn't require flight subject to IFR. In all cases the pilot qualification will be a PPL with no additional ratings. You may be required to transit Class A Controlled Airspace. VFR flight is not available in Class 'A', true. Why do you believe that SVFR transits only apply "in special circumstances"?

In the UK it is true that SVFR flight is not permitted in 'Airways. However, such a restriction is not applied to other forms of Class 'A'.

[Keygrip]

Madgav, just for practice - plan a flight from your home base to Jersey - as a PPL with no instrument qualification.

[madgav]

The RT Licence entitles you to operate the radio station in any aircraft, it is not confined to the privileges of a PPL!
That's what I thought, which is why I wanted to know if it involves IFR calls, SVFR clearances, etc.

"in special circumstances"
CAA VFR guide says "under circumstances which would normally require the flight to be made under IFR". Sorry, my poor choice of words :ouch:

plan a flight from your home base to Jersey
SVFR clearance or nothing then?

Thanks for the replies, just trying to get a feel for what is involved here :ok:

[madgav]

Then read this:http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_07webSSL22.pdf

Just going throught this again and have a few observations:

Page 11:
- LARS is available from Marham but he doesn't use it (just requests a FIS).Strange since on page 10 it says LARS is available over much of the route and it would be a shame not to use it......
- Marham asks him to report passing Chatteris but before he does this he changes to Cambridge, which is well off track, for VDF. Is this just for practice as he is not actually tracking anywhere near Cambridge? Or to confirm his general position south of Chatteris?

Page 12:
- Assume he talks to Wyton since he is passing over their ATZ (good airmanship?)
- From Wyton he requests a FIS and then (in his response to "pass your message") he requests a RIS. Assume this is a typo as RIS is not available from Wyton.
- He is asked to report passing Alconbury - surely "G-ON passing Alconbury" would be sufficient rather than the full position report ("P T L E") he gives in his repsonse? Or once again, is this just for practice?
- On his initial call to Cottesmore he requests MATZ penetration, however in his response to "pass your message" he adds RIS and Barnsley QNH to his request. Would Barnsley QNH not be passed to him as a matter of course since he reports altitude based on Chatham and is fast approaching an ASR boundary?
- Assume requests to report passing Oundle and Oakham are equivalent to reporting entering and leaving the CMATZ.
- East Midlands approach/radar is now 134.175?
- In his initial call to East Midlands he doesn't "request join" & they don't ask him to "pass your message".

Please keep any replies as constructive as possible :uhoh:, I'm new to a lot of this & trying to come up a steep learning curve :ok::ok:
Excuse the pre-ATSOCAS terminology used above, this is what is used in the leaflet.

[Whopity]

LARS is available over much of the route and it would be a shame not to use it...... LARS provided 3 services RIS, RAS and FIS, he used FIS, so he did use it!

surely "G-ON passing Alconbury" would be sufficient rather than the full position report One of the requirements of the test is that you demonstrate a full position report! This is an example of one.

I suggest you read he syllabus, App A http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%20B%20-%20FLIGHT%20RADIOTELEPHONY%20OPERATOR'S%20LICENCE%20(FRTOL). pdf look at this form http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1171.PDF which shows the training you should have received and then decide if the money would be well spent.

[madgav]

LARS provided 3 services RIS, RAS and FIS, he used FIS, so he did use it!
Understood, but if RIS was available would it not have been preferable to use it?

One of the requirements of the test is that you demonstrate a full position report!
I got the feeling that several bits of this sample flight may have been included simply to demonstrate knowledge for the purposes of the practical exam.

Thanks for the reply and for the links :ok:
G.

[homeguard]

Or as we all know Basic v Traffic.

The normal thing when flying VFR is see and be seen. A good lookout should be everyones aim.

If every pilot requested A 'Traffic' or 'Deconfliction' service it would be impossible to provide. The controller is limited to the maximum number of flights that they may accept for a service. Deconfliction being the most limiting although you must be flying in accordance with IFR to obtain a Deconfliction service. There is then a responsibility upon the pilot to request the most appropiate service for the flight conditions. Hopefully a controller may be reading this thread and provide the actual parameters in this regard.

[madgav]

AFAIK DS, unlike RAS, is available under any flight rules, which I suppose emphasises your point.

[BackPacker]

AFAIK DS, unlike RAS, is available under any flight rules, which I suppose emphasises your point.

That's what I understood too. But the acceptance of a DS means that you are able to follow vectors from ATC which potentially bring you into IMC conditions. So you should only request/accept a DS if you have an IMC/IR and the aircraft is IFR rated and you are prepared to switch to instrument flight as and when required, or on a CAVOK day.

[madgav]

Thanks again for the help.

Was offered a full day of one to one practical tuition with the course organiser for half the cost of the full 3-day course :ok: Jumped at the chance of course:).

Passed both the written and practical exams at Belfast Flying Club this morning :ok::ok:

[Keygrip]

...and did you learn anything useful on that course?

Would you have passed anyway?

Well done, btw.

[madgav]

I think the best answers are

"Absolutely".
And "Significantly less likely"

Thanks,
Gav.

[OA32]

Quote:
plan a flight from your home base to Jersey

SVFR clearance or nothing then?

Yes, this is correct, but do you know what the limits are for SVFR flight without an IMC in Class A or D airspace and no I'm not talking about Night flying. It would seem that many don't, I'm fairly sure that many pilots think they are flying legally because they have been given a SVFR clearance and not an IFR one.

[Lew747]

Can someone just clarify....Is the Communcation Exam (Part of the 7 JAA PPL Exams) the same or different to the RT Written exam?

Lewis

[homeguard]

The Communication exam is the exam but sometimes people call it the RT written exam. There is only the one exam. The Communication exam is one of the 7 written exams required for the PPL. The PPL student then takes the RT Practical to also have the FRTOL issued.

Those requiring only a FRTOL are required to take the same Communication Exam and pass the RT Practical Test.

[monkeyscribbler]

Since y ou've just pased both, care to return the favour to PPRUNE and offer some guidance to those of us who have yet to take the exam?

[alfaalfa]

has anyone passed the RT practical in Gamston airfield ,I need some advise please.thanks