How Do I Pay For Atpl! [Archive]

clanger32

10th Mar 2009, 19:34

I would take a slightly different perspective than Reluctant...But the advice given is really sound....I cannot advocate strongly enough getting some decent qualifications and then getting a job.
There is a real desire now to just jump into it at the earliest opportunity - understandable, but every £1 you can pay yourself towards your own training is probably worht close on £2 of borrowed.

If I were you, I would look to get the best GCSEs and A levels you can (I personally would do a degree as well in a profession if you can) work until you are 26/27 and then do the training....you will graduate around 28 years old and if you're sensible, with virtually no debt (from either route) and the whole aviation world in front of you.

There's a whole bunch of people who have just gained the cheap plastic blue book (me included - although I'm very fortunate and debt free...) who right now are either feeling very grateful indeed they're not in debt, or frankly speaking - ****ting themselves big style. If you were to graduate just at the time of a downturn like this one, as I did - believe me, you will be SOOOOO grateful to not have any debt!

Vems

10th Mar 2009, 19:37

I work part time. That's how I'm funding everything. I will take out Professional Development Loan to help me finance IR. But that would be about it. Don't get into debts, especially in the current climate.

About putting off training until you are 26/7. Why? You can still train part time whilst working part time and even through uni you would get through PPL and some hour building. At least.

PAPI-74

10th Mar 2009, 19:42

Dan,

Don't even think about it until the market has improved for a good while. Once the airlines start recruiting, wait a bit more for the holding pools to drain, then start your training. The airlines will not pay for the type rating (don't start me off there) generally, so not only will you have to pay for the training plus digs 55-85k, you will either have to instruct (6.5k but you may get pid 20k to do 50k worth of flying), be very lucky or have to pay for a 23k type rating.

Leave it a bit and absorb the amount of money and pressure that is facing you.
If you fail to get a job, which is likely, how will you service the loan and keep your flying current. Getting 200hrs and a frozen ATPL is the easy bit. Lots of guys never find work and give up. Once the IR lapses, you will have to find more money.
I had a PPL for 10 years before I made the jump and not including the 180hrs I had, the spend was 65k with the instructors rating and digs. I have been airline flying for 2 years and cannot even think of paying it off yet, just covering the interest every month.
CTC is your best bet and if you don't get it, try again and again and again. If it takes you 6 years to get there, no great shakes. It will just be that much sweeter.
There is not much point doing your ppl now, as it will cost you 8.5k and then keep it current. Unless you want to take your time and go modular as I did.
Earn as much as you can and put it away. The ppl will drain this....
High interest savings accounts | ISAs | Investments ? moneysupermarket.com (http://www.moneysupermarket.com/savings/)
Money Saving Expert: Consumer Revenge - Credit Cards, Shopping, Bank Charges, Cheap Flights and more (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/)
Don't listen to the schools as MOST - not all - just want your money, and will paint a rosey picture of the industry, trapping you into a course with very little chance of a job.

preduk

10th Mar 2009, 19:55

One of the biggest problems with this country (and many other countries) is that people are borrowing too much money compared to what they can afford.

If you borrow £40-100k for flight training then what are you going to do when you need to buy a car or get on the property ladder or want to go on holiday? You're talking about borrowing more money, if you had a mortgage plus your flight training fees you could be in almost a quarter of a million in debt!

I'm pretty sure thats a position you wouldn't want to be in and a position that your future wife wouldn't want to be in either.

Airless7183

10th Mar 2009, 20:55

i went modular with my own money and this has saved my a*se because upon completion i have not been able to secure an aviation job for over 10 months!!!

if i had had a big loan i am not sure how i would have survived. all my intergrated friends from the same flying school are in a very tough boat and i would not wish this on my worst enemy.

go to work and save as much as you can, i managed to save over 2 years all i needed and did my ppl while i was working.

PILOTDAN1992

10th Mar 2009, 20:59

thanks m8, what is a good job to do whilst saving up???. If i do a job whilst saving up how old would i be before i am actually flying????

PAPI-74

10th Mar 2009, 21:03

45 - leaving 20 good years flying.

PILOTDAN1992

10th Mar 2009, 21:20

Wat 45!!!!!!! Holly Crap Thats Far To Old, YOU ARE JOKING RIGHT PLEASE SOMEONE JUST TELL ME THAT WAS A JOKE

I know that wasn't very professional but thats not right is it, i mean i am 16 thats 25 years away

Hot 'n' High

10th Mar 2009, 21:44

PD1992,

If i do a job whilst saving up how old would i be before i am actually flying????

As an aspiring Airline pilot, I would hope you could do the Maths as you would need to decide what you wanted to do/could do, then cost that, cost your living expenses etc, etc. Don't forget the cost of the Course (Mod or Int) will have gone up in that time as well! You should then be able to work out roughly when you can afford to start. By the time you add cost of running a car, as well as all the rest - 45? You may be surprised at how close you get to that figure!

I think your question has been answered quite well in general terms - and asking for exact steps/figures/dates is a bit of an ask given all the variables, many of which will only be known by you depending on your circumstances/wishes. Now if you were to contract me as a Cost Estimator for you (at say £250 an hour + expenses!) I could do the maths - but that would be several £1000 less for your future ATPL (I do like my business lunches!!!). :p

Sorry to be a bit negative/grumpy but, really, some homework you have to do for yourself. It's not magic - it just takes time! Anyway, good luck to you!

H 'n' H

Flintstone

10th Mar 2009, 21:53

Wat 45!!!!!!! ................i am 16 thats 25 years away

Decent maths skills are a requirement Dan ;)

Seriously. Listen to the people telling you not to rush in, save as much as you can and have a Plan 'B' in the form of other qualifications. Best advice you'll ever receive.

EGCC4284

10th Mar 2009, 22:13

Started mod training at 31

Gained blue book aged 38

Got first job at 40

Borrowed money against my house and spent about £45,000 total

Dan, you have all the time in the world. Get a job and save up for the nexr 10 years or so.

PILOTDAN1992

10th Mar 2009, 22:33

Thanks to all you guys, you are really helpful, i am not brilliant at maths, but i am not rubbish, if you get me. But i have a maths tutor so things are definitely improving on the math side.:)

KAG

10th Mar 2009, 23:12

1- you are 16, obviously you are very young. You have plenty of time to save money, and find out the best way to achieve your goal. Keep asking around you, and get informed.

2- borrow money as less as you can

3-Don't even think about it until the market has improved for a good while. Once the airlines start recruiting, wait a bit more for the holding pools to drain, then start your training.
Do exactly the opposite of what is quoted above.
Economy down turns are the perfect time for the training (more quality instructor, more availability, cheaper rates).
When the economy goes up, you will be ready to go anywhere to get a job.
Every 7-8 years that's the same, thousands of student pilots are doing the same mistake: the economy goes up, airline industry is hiring, student pilot getting excited with the idea of getting a job after training, so they start their training, and the economy downturn appears... And they have to survive while waiting for the next hiring.

4- get if you can an education, a degree, it won' t hurt.

5- Good to study math, for sure, but the most important is motivation, experience, decision making process and judgment.

6- If you like travelling (you should as a pilot ;)), or if you intend to be an expat to get your first job or to get experience, try to learn a language.
I have seen expat getting an airline job interview in China because they speak chinese.
In many country in Africa, speaking french makes a huge difference to get a job.
Maybe you don' t realize, but right now the world is changing quickly, and Asia is about to take the economic control.
In addition the ability to speak a foreign language for somebody who wants to travel around the world (a pilot) wouldn' t hurt.

Mile High Nutcase

10th Mar 2009, 23:14

get yourself a job doing security work. its not the best job in the world but here's why i been doing it ever since i started my training.

you can earn approx £10 and hour but the long hours (12 hour shifts) can give you approx £400 a week

you get all the time in the world to sit and study for your atpl's, next days flight etc.

you do shift work so you can get many days off in a row which is really helpful during training.

if you're just a little smart, they'll promote you to supervisor, team leader within a coupla months and you get more money for doing less work.

In less than 5 years i done all my modular training, Bought a house, new car and didn't need a loan at all. I planned it in such a way that my training was never interrupted.

take your time, go modular and start saving your money.

Regards
MHN

Halfbaked_Boy

10th Mar 2009, 23:27

MHN,

But then you have to sit through the boring 4 day SIA course!

Hehe, I did it for a while, pretty good money for sitting in a chair for 12 hours :ok:

EGCC4284

11th Mar 2009, 00:41

Dan

I left school with no qualifacations what so ever. I relearnt the maths I needed for my ATPL's. Dont worry or stress too much about it, just do your best and get a job to earn cash to go modular.

If you really want to be a pilot, the only thing that will stop you is your health.

Its up to you.

Its a long road there, but it not impossible.

WallyWumpus

11th Mar 2009, 00:42

I saved for Integrated course at OAA for about 10 years. Debt free and job free......

mutt

11th Mar 2009, 04:23

Nothing personal, but why on earth would a bank loan a 16 year old without a job that amount of money...It turns out the MOST i can get is £30,000

Seems to me that banks havent learned their lessons!

Mutt

clanger32

11th Mar 2009, 09:44

Just a couple more points:

I've just re-read the entire thread. I think every single post on it from people that have the licence says some version of "save for a number of years as much as you can against whatever method of training you choose". It says something that on PPRuNe of all places you've got a general consensus. I'd STRONGLY heed that, if I were you....
When I talked of education, I specifically mentioned a "degree in a profession". If you qualify as (say) an accountant A) you can make some very good money to help your ultimate goal B) It is just about the best fallback plan you could have. This will help you with borrowing anything you need to....
When I mentioned training at 26/7 I should point out that I went through the integrated route, so naturally my thoughts instantly turn to how you'd do "That". If you choose to go modular, then it's absolutely correct that you could start your PPL, hours building, night rating etc long in advance of this....use this as a benchmark to start the "professional pilot" training parts.That's it!
Good luck
P.S. I know at 16, 45 years old seems a lifetime away, but believe me, life has a nasty habit of speeding up! It ain't that far away, at all!
;)

RobStob

11th Mar 2009, 10:19

Is it not pertinent to address the fact that some airlines don't actually accept pilots from a modular background? Ok, they may be few and far between, but if someone is wanting to aspire to be employed by BA at some point, they aren't going to be if they've pursued training via the modular route.

Everybody's circumstances are different, and indeed change over time. It's not always so clear cut as to which route will suit each person, which is why doing your homework is very important.

I'll echo what people are saying about education. It is very impotant to achieve the best results, even in subjects not 'relating to' flying. Not only will you be a broader, more well rounded individual, but you'll have more options with regards to employment. Getting a degree isn't a must. I did well in my A-levels but have been fortunate enough to secure a training place early in my life without wasting time doing a degree in something I have no interest in. If you think it is sensible, and there is a subject you would like to study in more depth at university, then by all means pusure a degree first, but don't do it by default. Do what's right for you.

PILOTDAN1992

11th Mar 2009, 11:13

Thanks again guys you are all really helpful :)

skyhighbird

11th Mar 2009, 11:18

Robstob,

Best to make yourself explicit. BA will employ mods will relevant experience. BA just don't emply mods straight out of flight school. Thats a very important fact and something that must be made very clear.

If you have 2000 hours and at "some point" you want to apply for BA, they won't shut the door based on the fact that you trained mod.

clanger32

11th Mar 2009, 11:28

RobStob,
Oooohhh.....prepare to get toasted (and I DON'T mean by my reply!)
RE: Airlines that don't accept modular. Common consensus is that BA is [just about] the only one that won't accept modular LOW HOURS guys. Once you're unfrozen, even BA don't give a stuff. And this coming from an integrated graduate. Don't do integrated PURELY for the chance of a job with BA - unless you're certifiably insane!

RE: Not going to university and doing a degree you have no interest in....sorry to say it, but you list yourself as 18. At this age, there is no way on gods green earth you've earned enough to pay for your own training yourself...so you're either borrowing heavily (against someone elses asset) or someone has paid at least a chunk of the cost for you. If - when you finish your training - the aviation industry is as bad as it is right now, you're absolutely, grade A, f***ed. Do NOT be under any illusions as to this. I

You HAVE to understand that you have nothing to offer to any employer outside of aviation and a mountain of debt. Your only hope (if it remains as is right now) will be Ryanair who will want another £30k you haven't got. If you can't get the money, or worse, fail the assessment then you are in really, really deep - and very hot - water. You will NOT be able to get a job sufficient to pay back the kind of debt we're talking here and have any life on A levels alone....in every walk of life there is a multitude of very highly qualified people out there scrapping for any job. You might well end up bankrupt, or worse losing your parents/siblings home for them. You should NOT take this lightly...

It might not be what you want to do, but getting a good backup plan is absolutely critical. Ask ANYONE that's finished professional training in the last 6 months and you'll get the same answer....to think any different is extremely naive.

I don't want to sound like an arsehole and actually if you're starting now, personally I think you'll be finishing around about the time we start to see recovery....but don't forget there'll also be 15 months of 24 grads per course from at least 3 integrated schools ahead of you also looking for those opportunities. I actually am not having a go at you personally, just trying to get across how bad it is right now and why this is the very best illustration of why you need that fallback plan. It is Very, VERY tough right now.

I genuinely wish you the best of luck with your training, I hope you'll really enjoy it, but it is just plain wrong to advise anyone else against getting a fallback plan right now, just because you've decided to take that risk - because it is a HUGE risk.
good luck. And apologies for sounding like an arse.

PILOTDAN1992

11th Mar 2009, 11:37

HAHA, thank you so much m8, i am sorting out a backup plan now, cheers :)

ewsd02

11th Mar 2009, 11:56

Study Maths & Physics at School and do well in both subjects, try to get full airline sponsorship, (I think Atlantic and Highland still offer this, although I'm not sure why in the current climate) and consider the RAF (even airmen aircrew would get you airborn and you'd be well paid).

These options are competitive and you may not be successful, if not get the highest paid job you can and gradually pay for your training as you go, better known as modular! Some big flying schools offer discounted training if you work on Ops or admin from them for a couple of years, not a great deal really but worth looking at.

As everyone else has said, don't take out a loan, you have time on your side.

happyjack

11th Mar 2009, 12:09

Mutt...you beat me to it.
When I was 16 I could not get a £500 loan from the bank, (Lloyds) I was working for!
Now they will give a 16 year old £30k with no job????
I'm sorry. I just don't believe this. Maybe a year ago but not now?
No Way!:confused:

James D

11th Mar 2009, 12:12

but if someone is wanting to aspire to be employed by BA at some point, they aren't going to be if they've pursued training via the modular route.

RobStob-If you are one of these people then i'm surprised you didn't do a bit more reseasch on BAs recruiting habits before spouting off on this topic.

RobStob

11th Mar 2009, 13:31

Clanger - don't worry mate I completely understand what you're saying. You don't come across as an arsehole. I've done my research and I know the risks. Sometimes you just have to take them to get somewhere. Everybody has their own choice. I'm not an idiot, I and the people who are backing me financially know what the potential outcome of a f*ckup could be, and I'm certainly not the only one pursuing this route. By the way, I'll have a type-rating by the end of this course, so no need to fork out £30,000 with Ryanair for that. Please don't anybody reply by preaching to me about how 'I've made the wrond decision/you're going to be screwed with debts' etc when they know nothing about me or my situation, and that is my business alone. I, like many others, can only hope that the market is indeed buoyant again in 2-3 years time, but time will tell. Thanks for the luck; I'm acutely aware I'll need it, in terms of getting the job anyway.

Thanks for clearing that up with BA; as far as I was aware they (told by CTC) didn't accept modular cadets, but if they do after time then that's great news. I'm not here to knock the modular route by any means and apologise if I mislead anyone.

James D - mate, I've hardly desperate for BA, getting a job full stop would be nice. I'm not going to say that I wouldn't like to end there up eventually, though. Hence, I have not written a dissitation on BA's recruiting habits, however I was misinformed. :)

James D

11th Mar 2009, 13:56

Thanks for clearing that up with BA; as far as I was aware they (told by CTC)

Why doesn't that surprise me! I found CTC to be very selective in what they did and didn't tell you when i went through the selection.

By the way, I'll have a type-rating by the end of this course

Worth noting that you'll only have a type rating if one of the partner airlines is in a position to take you on when you finish and there is not a queue of CP course already waiting in the hold pool by this stage.

Anyway good luck with it, hopefully things will have picked up by then.

G SXTY

11th Mar 2009, 14:03

It would be wise to take any school's 'advice' on airline recruitment policies with a large pinch of salt.

And to answer the original question, get the best grades you can at school, then go out and get a job. If you're academically minded, go to university and get a degree in something useful - then go out and get a job.

That way you'll have cash to pay for your training, life and work experience (i.e. something to actually talk about at an interview) and a back-up plan for if and when you can't find work as a pilot.

Worked for me - degree aged 22, several boring but reasonably well paid jobs in shipping, got into flying with a trial lesson aged 29, CPL/IR and first airline job at 36. I've got a decent fall-back CV if I ever lose my medical, and I don't have a mountain of debt.

AlphaMale

11th Mar 2009, 14:17

I'll have a type-rating by the end of this course,

I've read that some people will pay for a TR on a 737 / A320 etc at maybe £20k applying to say Easy as an example and then having to be bonded on 'their' TR course at a TRTO where they want to put you.

That way you'll pay twice :ugh:

Food for thought, you pay for your training for a fATPL and a TR on a 737. There are no jobs around in 3 years time for a pilot with 250hrs and a 737TR and the only thing you spot is a local operator using ATR 72's. What will you answer when the interviewer asks "It says here you have a 737 rating? ... Does this mean you'll be leaving us in 2 years time when your fATPL becomes a full ATPL? And why should I pick you over the guy with an ATR 72 TR?"

RobStob

11th Mar 2009, 18:34

CTC have still managed to maintain their 100% placement record, with recent holding pool cadets placed with airlines. I agree there may not be a job at the end of the 6 months line training, but you have a TR paid for that is not part of the intial bond schedule. I'm fully aware that there are catches etc etc and nothing's perfect, however if they can manage to get pilots into line training with the industry in the state is now, I am fairly confident that in 2 years jobs will be available on top of that. Let's not forget that all the problems encountered at the moment are pretty unique to the economy right now and are far worse than they have been previously, therefore the current situation cannot really be used to predict the job situation 2/3 years down the line. Now is, after all, the best time to start training; all anyone can ever hope for is to emerge in a peak on completion of training, no matter when they do it or what route they take.

MickeyH

11th Mar 2009, 18:35

From reading this thread, the general consensus seems to be that the modular training route is just as good, if not better, than the integrated route. I've always been under the impression that the integrated route is more favourable, especially when jobs are harder to come by, since greater continuity of flying generally equals better quality flying. I also thought airlines prefered graduates from the integrated courses, as all of their training had been completed with one provider.

Can anyone shed any light?

Thanks

G SXTY

11th Mar 2009, 21:00

Pull up a comfy chair:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/218620-never-ending-modular-vs-integrated-debate-merged-ad-nauseam.html

649 posts and counting . . .

PILOTDAN1992

11th Mar 2009, 21:22

thanks guys, and i will :)

Leezyjet

11th Mar 2009, 22:13

Another thing to think about when deciding on when to train is that if you are fully qualified and in the RHS at age 19/20/21, then that is potentially another 46/45/44 years worth of flying ahead of you providing you go on to reach retirement age.

And whilst that is all well and good to make it to the LHS and work your way up the seniority list, once the novelty has worn off, it will just be another job and you could well become very bored of it by the time your in your 30's.

I'd suggest to anyone at age 16-20 to go out and either get more qualifications or get a job, and work and save as much as possible and look to begin the training around age 25 when you won't have to worry about taking out a huge loan. Having a skill that you can also use around your flying to earn extra money on the side (there are always people looking to save a bob or 2 :ok: ) would also come in handy and jobs such as plumbing, electrician etc also pay pretty well in the mean time so you can save. Airlines also like people to have some other life experience aside from just school/uni/flight school.

I just don't understand why for some people there is such a rush to get into huge debt to make it into the RHS. Unless you are the wrong side of 30, there is plenty of time ahead of you - and even then it still isn't too late.

:)

cc2180

11th Mar 2009, 22:13

From reading this thread, the general consensus seems to be that the modular training route is just as good, if not better, than the integrated route.
All mod students say modular is better. All integrated students say integrated is better.

Dont make life choices based on the popular vote from these kind of threads.

clanger32

12th Mar 2009, 09:36

From reading this thread, the general consensus seems to be that the modular training route is just as good, if not better, than the integrated route.

No! That's NOT what we're saying here at all! I think you're confusing the answer "both routes get you to the same place eventually" with the question "which is the better route". Firstly, read all 2 billion pages of the thread G SXTY kindly linked for you. Then understand that what cc2180 tells you is pretty much, but not necessarily "totally", true. People will always tell you that what "they did" is the best...

I won't even attempt to answer the "which is better" question, save that to say IMHO, it's very dependant on the person.

What I did want to say however, is it's like having a need to get from London to Edinburgh. Both a second hand and a new car will get you there, but which is better? The answer is dependant on SO many factors that you couldn't ever get a single answer. What's your budget? How second hand IS second hand (£50 banger, or £200000 used supercar) how quickly do you need to get there, how important is comfort to you? Do you see what I mean? both get you there eventually....but person A might choose to spend £50 on a banger, break down about 100 times, but get there eventually having spent a lot less than person B who bought a brand new BMW and got there quickly and in comfort. Of course, someone who bought a second hand rolls royce, will probably have still paid less than someone who bought a new M5 AND got there quickly and comfortably...

I'm NOT comparing int and modular to bangers and beemers by the way, just it's a handy metaphore. Suffice to say, I don't think ANYONE in this thread has been saying one route or other is better, just that when you've unfrozen your ATPL, there ceases to be much - if any - difference.

shaun ryder

13th Mar 2009, 09:24

Fact of the matter is, if you have just spunked all your money on the bells and whistles course instead of the cheaper option. The brand new beamer could be yours! There are no jobs out there for any newbie, why waste your money.

Grass strip basher

15th Mar 2009, 05:11

Dan you are 16..... 16!!
I am absolutely gobsmacked.... I would be shocked if a bank would lend you £100 let alone £50k!!! Have you ever had a job.... do you have an income? If not why on earth should someone give you the money to train??

I would be tempted to say have a look at the military but to be honest to succeed there you would need a passion for it and given you are 16 and seem to have not expressed an interest in that direction you would be unlikely to get in as a pilot.

You should worry about getting good exam results... that should be your top priority at the moment... forget flying and get on with studying that is your best bet at the moment. If you really really have to fly whilst at school get a job at weekends and start paying for flying lessons. You could then be well on you way to getting a PPL before you leave school.

Robstob: "Let's not forget that all the problems encountered at the moment are pretty unique to the economy right now and are far worse than they have been previously, therefore the current situation cannot really be used to predict the job situation 2/3 years down the line. Now is, after all, the best time to start training"

Thanks you for sharing those words of economic wisdom gathered from all those economic downturns you have been through in your 18 years.... CTC have done a real job on you. If you can't see the long-term issues with these 6 month contracts then you have a lot to learn.... and the first lesson will probably be when you are dumped on your arse after just 6 months of line flying with a whooping big loan still to repay.... I just despair at how naive some people are.... that said when I was 18 I am sure I would have been the same :oh:

5Z4

15th Mar 2009, 08:04

agree !:D
Grass strip basher ! Well said

PILOTDAN1992

15th Mar 2009, 11:28

thanks, I am in college now, and i have a part-time job to pay for my ppl. I have decided i am going to go in the police to pay for my ATPL.

Flygirl83

15th Mar 2009, 11:57

pilot dan,

read wilkys post here, look how much he has worked to get to a position so he can pay for his training, read and learn!

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/359421-2009-what-your-take-home-pay-thread-4.html#post4790460

Debt is not good!!:ouch:

Grass strip basher

15th Mar 2009, 12:23

A sensible plan.... good luck getting into the Police.... it isn't easy either these days!

RobStob

15th Mar 2009, 13:43

Yeah! Let's all jump on the newbee with some more sarcastic, bitter comments to impress the oldies! Nice one! Haven't seen that before on here, very refreshing commment :) That kind of comment just epitomises the kind of resposes I expect to see on here. And yeah, my comment epitomises the kind of comments from a 'naive 18 year old', blah, blah.
Yeah, I'm naive etc because you know me and everything, fair comment there, matey. If people say something that you don't really agree with, why don't you, like everyone else, bite their :mad: tongue for once, because we don't want to hear it? I've heard it all before, so has everyone else, and big :mad: deal. It's so typical that you latched onto my comment and produced that orginal response, slating me. I bet you were waiting in the shadows for another chance to attack someone like me? Congratulations, enjoy your moment of smugness. Well deserved.

This is my decision and nobody elses, and I'll be damned if I listen to some comments on here instead of the actual words of wisdom I've heard over the years (NOT from CTC, clever dicks). If you think I've suddenly jumped into CTC straight after leaving school without consulting the other options available for YEARS, then you don't know me one little bit.

If I'm on my arse after the 6 months then that will be the worst case scenario and my error in singing up to this. Heck, shun the thought that I might actually have a job after it, though... Oh no, what about that? Of course, everybody knows, categorically, that it won't happen. That goes without saying, doesn't it?

Grass strip basher

15th Mar 2009, 14:13

Wow lot of pent up aggression released there RobStob!... feeling a little nervous about something!? :hmm: I don't care if you end up on your arse.... you have made your bed and will have to lie in it..... tempting other young naieve wanabees to run head first into training in potentially the worst recruitment market for decades and I will give you a "verbal slap" and make no apologies.

I am sure you spent many of your teenage hours thinking about how to get into aviaton and CTC is one of the best ways although even they are "going a bit Ryanair" with this new "flexi scheme". (Personally I spent most of my teenage years getting pissed and trying to get laid... but I digress that is another story).

Bottom line paying c60k plus 1-2 years of lost earnings in the current economic environment with limited to zero chance of a "permanent" job many would view as strange.... where as you think now is the "best time to train"..... I bet there ain't gonna be much of a pilot recruitment market next winter but hey hoo we will just have to wait and see.... things ain't shaping up too good so far.

Also sorry but I must ask.... it must be interesting when you meet the CTC course 6-9 months behind you knowing that in all probablility they will be taking your job when they graduate on the CTC "flexi-crew" scheme leaving you in the sh*t..... how does that discussion point go down over a beer with them??...... or when you discuss it with the CTC grads you will replace who are currently doing their 6 month stint on the line.... they will be left with a big debt and no job so you can do your 6 month stint?? See the problem.... how do you think experienced crew would feel about that? All genuine questions I am sure you considered in the yeeears you spent planning this....:oh:

quant

15th Mar 2009, 14:19

Get a job :ok:

Ollie23

15th Mar 2009, 16:01

Yeah! Let's all jump on the newbee with some more sarcastic, bitter comments to impress the oldies!

Or some might call it realism.

There are a few like this on my CP intake, seem to think they know it all. Its amazing there is a guy on my course who is barely shaving yet he regularly gives us advice on property, the stock market, pilot recruitment, pensions, marriage?! etc. He means well but does make me chuckle.

MickeyH

16th Mar 2009, 20:17

Thanks for your replies, I've just revived the modular vs integrated debate...sorry!

Firestorm

20th Mar 2009, 09:45

A Livery Company of the City of London (http://www.gapan.org)

Try this link Dan. There is some useful stuff about becoming an airline pilot. Look for the page "careers and sponsorship": you might even like to apply for a PPL sponsorship. The Guild used to have a full ATPL scholarship too, but that has been withdrawn for the time being because of the financial climate. By the time you are interested in doing the ATPL course (and old enough to hold the licence of course) it may have been reinstated.

As some others have said already, but it is advice worth repeating, get yourself a good education first, at least to A-level, and get yourself some sort of practical trade to fall back on, or to help ease the way through training costs. Go to every length that you can to avoid starting your working life with the debt the size of a small house: there will be plenty of other opportunities in your life to get a debt round your neck! I was in my mid 20s when I started flying training, and early 30s when I got my first flying job: you have plenty of time, so don't feel you have to make airline pilot your first, and only job.

Good luck, and enjoy your self!

PILOTDAN1992

20th Mar 2009, 19:12

ok, thanks alot m8 :)

isi3000

20th Mar 2009, 23:09

Sorry...I'm still reeling from the first post.

You think 48k isn't enough for the ATPLs? :eek:

preduk

21st Mar 2009, 01:51

Good luck with the police Dan, that's what I'm in the process of doing. Fed up with office jobs!

I've been working with the police as a part time officer since Sept last year and have loved it, doesn't ever get boring.

PILOTDAN1992

21st Mar 2009, 09:30

cool, are you saving up for ATPL aswell?, and thanks m8

jamier

22nd Mar 2009, 03:56

PilotDan,

Its been mentioned further back in this thread about joining the RAF. Ive always wanted to be a pilot and ive just recieved my start date for the RAF 13th May :ok: Even though im not joining as a pilot and will be working as an aircraft technician im signing up for 9 years but will probably stay in longer as the RAF will subsidise my PPL, will subsidise further training and flying (hour building) will subsidise me getting A-Levels and a Degree, and i could possibly get a comission and try my luck at becoming a pilot for the RAF. Along the lines of money for my training im looking at saving £100 a week in a web saver ive setup exactly for this reason. I came to the realisation after getting a credit card i really dont want to go and get a loan for £30-£50k and find myself in a world of debt and possibly without a job at the end of the training were as in the RAF you get paid to learn :)

Look at yourself take heed of whats going on in the world then think about getting a job, getting some life experience and getting some money behind you! I hope you make it and hope to see you in the skies one day!

Regards

Jamie R

Grass strip basher

22nd Mar 2009, 04:57

Thank God.... at last.... someone that is 19 years of age and is showing wisdom above and beyond his years!

Jamie R.... :D :D :D

I am sure there will be times in the RAF when you will wonder why you went down the route you did but I would wager when you are an old fella looking back on your life you will thank the stars about the decisions you are making now.

I tip my hat to you sir and good luck with your career.:ok:

PILOTDAN1992

22nd Mar 2009, 10:50

Thanks Jamie,
Good luck to you in the RAF:):ok:

FOD_FATHER

26th Mar 2009, 11:14

So in summary (for the noobs amongst us) what is the best advice for initiating our pilot careers?

In short:

Which school(s)?

Which course?

How much to save/borrow?

Recommended routes?

Recommended additional training/activities in the interim?

When? (Time lines)

Have i missed anything?!

For your reference, I am a 23 year old currently working in the financial services in London. I have a degree in Business and spent 2.5 years in a UAS flying Grob Tutors (c.60 hours flight time inc 10 solo). I have managed to save circa 25k and can access an additional 30k if need be (I will!).

thanks!

Grass strip basher

26th Mar 2009, 11:18

My advice is for the next 2 years stay in your financial services job and save another 20k then think about your training.

Or with your UAS experience why not have a crack at the RAF (think you are still young enough)

FOD_FATHER

26th Mar 2009, 11:44

Thanks Grass Strip Basher,

Unfortunately I am just over 23 and 11 months... (what a silly rule!?)

RN or AAC i guess...

p.s. i doubt very much i will make anywhere near that much in the city these next few years...!!

2 years - to kill/save...

schools/courses/added training?!

Thanks

Kelly Hopper

26th Mar 2009, 11:50

Well one thing is for certain:
You will be making a flat zero in aviation unless something changes.
Get a real career. Not this pathetic excuse for one!
And what about another £25k for a type rating, and another £30k for line training?
But you will be rewarded with..........................unemployment!
It's great eh?

FOD_FATHER

26th Mar 2009, 11:59

Wow Kelly,

Thats pretty damning!

Unfortunately for me (and most of us on here) this is our passion and i am focused on chasing it!

We need to remember that when the good times come back (and it always does) there will be alot of opportunities for those dedicated enough to (for want of another city expression) hang in there.

Fortunately i also speak an eastern language so i may be well positioned to transfer my skills/career in the emerging east...

I am pretty sure i want to train in the UK though as i genuinely believe the quality to be of a superior standard hence i will not entertain the idea of travelling to Africa/Aus to study...

Grass strip basher

26th Mar 2009, 12:14

I would consider RN.... they produce some damn fine pilots.

Kelly Hopper

26th Mar 2009, 12:15

Your determination is admirable but I could not over emphasise doing your homework first.
All of us have been driven by that passion to fly but things have changed a great deal.
It simply makes NO economic sense whatsoever to come into this industry anymore.
An endless expectation to fund the operation you work for, only for bad pay, bad conditions and real abuse from your employer that just would not be tolerated in any other civilised industry.
And that is assuming you find employment here. Thousands cannot.
It is precisely "wanabees" desire to fly that is being exploited and it will only get worse. At the end of the day it is a job.
I don't have children, (thanks to every relationship being destroyed by aviation), but if I did I would be devastated if they decided to waste their lives on this now.
Get a real career, earn shed loads of money elsewhere and buy your own aircraft and you will enjoy your flying. The politics of this business have killed any enjoyment for me and many others. Not to mention I spent 1/2 a house to put myself through this!
Anyone know a good psychiatrist?

UAV689

26th Mar 2009, 12:23

Jamier - nice on on joining the RAF, get involved in RAFGSA gliding, and get posted to Halton at the RAFGSA center, the guys there are earning 30k to teach gliding and fly tugs, they are getting 100s of hrs for free whilst still earning a good wage and getting engineering qualifications for civvy street as well! A few of them are going to do ATPL route.

To everyone else, save save save. I work 7 days a week, study every night. It is possible (96% average in first 8 exams). If you dont get a job, but you have come out with no debt, you have given it your all and when your 80 yrs old on your death bed you will know you have given it a go.

Yes its dire out there, but so are most industries at the moment. But its not worth it if you are planning to get a loan to do it.

Kelly Hopper

26th Mar 2009, 13:45

I wouldn't imagine that any bank, after risk assessment would consider lending for flying training these days. It would be safer putting it in Iceland!

FOD_FATHER

26th Mar 2009, 14:11

Great advice -

So in essence if i decided to go ahead with a modular part time course through OAA over the next year or so (self funded) then when the green shoots of recovery appear go ahead and step into full flight school - that would be a viable route?

Would people generally rate CTC or OAA as good value, career enabling schools?

Is doing a PPL in the interim worth while?

preduk

26th Mar 2009, 20:40

Stay away from OAAs modular course, it's too expensive and gives you pretty much no benefit from other schools. People have posted a number of times suggesting you get no help whatsoever is getting a job and it's over priced.

tropicalfridge

27th Mar 2009, 07:51

Jamier. By subsidising your flying do you mean flying in the RAFFCA flying clubs? There is one on most on the large flying bases and they are still much cheaper than civvy schools for service people. The clubs at Waddington and Kinloss are probably the best if you get yourself posted there.

The money that you are given for self improvement (ELC) doesn't kick in until you've done 6 years and must be job related unless you are in your last 2 years of service, so as a techie you won't be able to use them for flying training.

Glider tugging is a good way to build hrs, but best to get the PPL, night rating and IMC also. If you are looking to switch to Pilot, its all about timing and the 6hrs aptitude tests.

SLIPANDSKID

27th Mar 2009, 08:51

Hi,

This is mainly aimed for FOD but more than valid for Dan.

I was in exactly the same position as FOD with UAS EFT behind me a degree and some money in the bank. I had tried numerous times before my 24th birthday for the RAF, and with an offer as a nav I decided civvy (my apt score of 120 was considered too low, so this being the same test cut out possibility of RN).

I went off to America and signed up on a course in Florida, at a place we used to joke was the Walmart of flying. I signed up for a 'pro course' including multi private, sing/multi comm, IFR, CFI, CFII, MEI. With the offer of a job instructing if I was any good at the end. I finished the course with 230 hours and got a job instructing. I left after 2 years(visa expired) with 900 hrs under my belt and a lot of good memories.

I now work in Africa and have lived here for 3 years flying all sorts of planes. I am not particularly interested in the airlines.

Moving onto my point, I signed a contract for all of the above training for 29kUSD at the time about 14.5k sterling. It came with housing for 3 months as well. It took me six months to get all my tickets and after that I was earning 1.5k per month as an instructor to live on. So all in all I spent with living expenses and incidentals about 20k sterling on my training. I now have 2500 hrs PIC in multi's, turbine and jet. However, if your aim is to get into a big shiny airliner in JAA land quickly this might not be for you. I still have expensive conversions if/when I want to do that.

The course where I went to school I believe is now 38k USD. I recon your 25K sterling would pay for that, if you started the course now you could have 1000hrs under your belt in 2 years when the visa runs out. Just in time for some quick JAA conversions and for the industry to be on the upturn:ok:.

You have 2 years to kill so kill it on the beach and airport in Florida, spend the 25k you have with no need to borrow more. If you want any more info on this school or the way I did it send me a PM.

Cheers

UAV689

27th Mar 2009, 11:10

To Preduk

I have no experience of OAA or CTC. But as a hard nosed retail merchandiser my gut instinct is no they are not good value. You are buying a brand and marketing. I am sure during good times they have contacts and perhaps get people interviews, but when no one is hiring that is worthless and you will be jobless along with the modular guys that spent half the money they charge. We all end up with the same license, all have to sit an IR test with a CAA examiner.

For example, their ground school distance learning comes in at nearly 3k when you add all the complusory brush up elements. Go to CATS spend 1k for the whole lot. Thats what I am doing and still averaging 96% pass mark, so CATS cant be that bad then eh!

Bring it back on thread for the next 2-3 yrs people that go integrated are mental and want heads tested. Go modular, work and save and come out on the other side debt free and be proud of the hard work you put in getting the blue book.

UAV

Willy Miller

27th Mar 2009, 12:33

RAF flying scholarship (free PPL), NCO aircrew (more cheap flying), modular/self study, small turbo-prop, large turbo-prop, A319.
Still in 30's(just) airline job, no debts and loads of different types of flying.
I wouldn't have done it any other way (maybe uni/UAS and a better shot at RAF Pilot).

When I meet all these 22 year olds starting on the airbus with £80,000 debt my heart sinks. I can't imagine how they will feel in 20 years time doing the same job (probably with lower T/Cs) and only just able to start enjoying a good lifestyle (house/family/holidays etc)

If you don't fancy the services lots of guys start on the ramp/ops/engineering etc, good for contacts and looks good on the CV!

Enjoy - you have it all ahead (I'm kind of jealous!)

rgds

WM

Obs cop

27th Mar 2009, 21:23

Some of the posters here give me hope in human kind again. The majority of (particularly young) posters on the wannabe forums make me wince with pain.

Most of this will be readily apparent to those approaching their 40's or beyond, however here goes. In days gone by people became pilots by being hanger rats, cleaning aircraft, sweeping hangars, joining the forces, saving up desperately for years, seeking alternative better paid employment. If you wanted something and weren't rich your only option was to work towards it. Read the pilot biographies in the magazines folks! How many of the pilots often featured walked into a bank and borrowed their way into the business? None, they all worked damned hard for it. It's only 20 years ago that you couldn't get a mortgage unless you had saved with that building society for years and had proven yourselves a safe and responsible person with the means to pay a 25 year secured loan on a house!

As a junior officer in the Navy some 15 years ago, I still had to have a meeting with my bank manager to get an unsecured loan for a motorcycle! And yes the fine detail of my finances were poured over.

There is now a significant section of the population who never saw the last recession, and for whom the primary means of purchasing goods is by credit. Sofa, car, bed, furniture, ATPL, mobile phone contracts, credit cards, overdrafts, buy now pay later and of far more concern, worry about payment later.

Look at the criticism Governments worldwide and the banking community have taken for the toxic debts and the idea of borrowing their way out of a recession. As it stands, the job market is appalling and aviation is no different.

With all these things considered why on earth do people want to borrow vast sums of money to run towards the edge of the cliff with nothing more than hope to stop a massive fall! I have so far taken 15 years to get to the stage of a CPL course. I am debt free and in no rush. However why do people want to rush through life experience?

Airline flying these days is not the glamorous lifestyle it once was and once the gloss has worn of the new toy of flying an airliner after the first few years it won't get more exciting for the remaining 30-35 years! Airlines and passengers don't want you to do exciting flying, they want safe, comfortable and on schedule flying. Just how exciting do people think flying a big bus down airways is? What's wrong with getting a little life experience these days?

My advice is simple, take your time. There are still opportunities to get some flying for not a lot. Gapan, the armed forces and the Air League do sponsorships and flying scholarships. The armed forces recruit almost permanantly and not just for pilots. Non commisioned aircrew gain valuable experience and get very well paid for it! Get a ppl and enjoy the flying for a bit, fly gliders, tow gliders on a PPL, get involved in para dropping. Enjoy life a little, but work through it and save hard, because reckless borrowing on the back of the assurances and sales patter of integrated schools is fraught with more danger than holding a 100m race in a minefield at the moment.

Rant over folks,

Regards, Obs

Willy Miller

27th Mar 2009, 23:43

Hey! - we didn't get that well paid !!!

wiggy

28th Mar 2009, 09:25

Wise words Obs cops and Willy, but I suspect many won't want to listen.

preduk

28th Mar 2009, 10:00

UAV,

I've got no idea why you aimed that at me, I've been saying the same thing for a long time.

G SXTY

28th Mar 2009, 11:37

Obs Cop - very, very well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.

One of my friends has a job that many younger wannabes would kill for - flying an airbus for BA. Fortunately he has the benefit (and perspective) of a previous career outside aviation, but many of his colleagues do not. They joined as fresh-faced young cadets, with no life experience behind them, and by their mid-thirties many are bored and slightly bitter. They have never experienced life in the real world outside aviation, and have that feeling you get when you have spent too long in the same job - that the grass must be greener somewhere else. The trouble is, it aint. And where do you go from BA? Let alone with 10-15 years' seniority?

If you start with an airline aged 20, you have 45 years of flying in front of you. That's an awful lot of earlies, crosswords and dodgy crew food to look forward to. Let's say you spend five years as a short-haul FO, then another five on long-haul. Then get a short-haul command. After another 5 years you're high enough up the seniority list to get command of a 747/A380. Congratulations, you're now less than halfway through your career. Another 25 years of sitting in the cruise - nice. "Ahh," you say, "If I'm bored I could always change jobs." With 20 years seniority at the World's favourite? Not likely.

What I'm trying to say is that rushing to join this industry in your early twenties isn't always the great idea it seems at the time. You'll take on a mountain of unnecessary debt and pass up the opportunity to experience other walks of life. A broad range of work and life experience will serve you well in any career - especially this one - but by the time you appreciate that, you'll be halfway up a seniority list and it'll be too late to do anything about it.

Regards from a 37 year-old old fart who sounds more like his dad every day.

jamier

28th Mar 2009, 12:58

UAV689

Ive just come back from my PRTC (Pre Recruit Training Course) at Halton where i got my boots etc and got alot of briefings i saw a poster about the gliding school. What im going to do is concentrate on getting better (injured my knee a few days ago and it went badly yesterday doing a PT session so off to the doctors on monday) they said turn up at basic even if its not right and atleast im then started and theyll just backflight me due to injury and get me all the help i need. Hopefully after i pass out then ill look into what options are open with regards to subsidised flying etc but right now im concetrating on getting my knee back on track and getting through my basic training.

tropicalfridge

After ive done my 9 weeks basic and then 5 months at Cosford, on my dream sheet im going to be asking for Leeming, Waddington or Conningsby and look into what flying is available. My intention is to try and switch to pilot after 4 years of training (and studying!) and see where that takes me if not a pilot then maybe Nav or WSOP but i do have a desire to go as high as i can and really want to get a comission but we will see how it goes as you can never guarantee something will happen or work out the way we want it to (ive learnt this from past experiences)

Obs cop

28th Mar 2009, 18:48

G SXTY thanks for your kind words,

It has to be said, both your inspiring post and that of "Pilot Pete" should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to get involved in aviation.

Two things are guaranteed to make life awkward and relationships hard, the first is shift work and the second is seperation. I'm fortunate that I already do the shifts and have the most understanding and supportive wife in the world.

I can guarantee she would not be half as supportive if I had borrowed vast sums of money however:}

After a total of 15 years in military aviation and front line policing, including police firearms, I'm bored of excitement :ok:

I have enough memories and war stories to fill a decent book, and the idea of ploughing the airways in a turboprop will not leave any voids or yearnings unfulfilled.

Oh and G SXTY, I'm hot on your heals at 35 so I'm not over the hill yet then:ok:

Obs