Doc 9137-an/898 Part 1

[justintime5]

Hi,

Three main questions regarding this documents and how are civil aviations acting regarding this around the world.

I was flying in Spain for a couple of years and in Spain Spanish CAA are making operators include in the Ops Manual that they will not operate in an airport with a fire category below that of the aircraft.
In Spain there is no further ruleing about this matter.

1- Is this a recomendation? If so dose the CAA have legal right to oblige you to comply with somehting that has not been ruled?

2- Acording to this document who is responsible to comply with this, the operators or the airport authorities? not permiting aircaft larger to the fire category land at their airport?

3- On Chapter 2.1.4 there is a note saying that form 01 Jan 2000 only one category below is alowed and from 01 Jan 2005 no ajustments may be made. But is the frequency of flights still considered to determine the category of FF of the airport or dose it count from the first flight.

Well I know I should get some friends and try to worry about football. :8

I have seen houndreds of times people operating to airports with Fire Cat 4 or 5 with large airliners and also using them as Alt.

Any light on this matter?

[Spitoon]

I can't speak for the Spanish CAA but there are many ways for the rules to be implemented - not just in legislation.

If the Spanish CAA has insisted that aircraft operators put this in their Ops Manual and somewhere else has a rule that says the aircraft must normally be operated in accordance with the the procedures in the Ops Manual - then so be it.

If I understand you correctly we are talking about the aircraft operator's Ops Manual - in which case it will be the commander's responsibility (there will be a rule about that somewhere too). I don't have Doc 9137 to hand but the authoritative document will be Annex 14 and I think that still includes provisions for reducing RFF cover where there are less than 700 movements in the previous busy 3 months. But remember, Annex 14 says what the aerodrome has to do (in order to get certified), it's the Ops Manual that determines how the crew operate the aircraft - and I believe there are many examples where the Ops Manual is more restrictive than the ICAO SARPs.

[Henry VIII]

I don't have 9137 neither and generally I agree with Spitoon.the CAA have legal right to oblige you to comply with somehting that has not been ruled?Let's say that Spanish CAA ruled itself on the matter, so they have legal right against Spanish AOC holders.I have seen houndreds of times people operating to airports with Fire Cat 4 or 5 with large airliners and also using them as Alt.Wether the Flight Ops's chief authorizes such operations charging the responsability him/herself, it is possible.

P.S. Any download suggestion about doc 9137 ? Found nothing but to buy it on ICAO at £100 :eek:

[Coldbear]

I belive this is what your looking for:
http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Doc%209731%20-%20AN%20958/

The danish CAA has all the icao docs on thier website


Martin

[justintime5]

Hi again,

Like in many things in life yes and no in my opinion.
It is clear that if something is in your approved ops manual you are then obliged to comply with what it says in it.
But can a CAA inspector make you comply with something he simply thinks is best if that has not been previously ruled? This is very dangerous as then there would be as many interpretations on to what can or can't as people in the CAA. Apparently there is no further legislation regarding this matter in Spain (I am not an expert my self on Spanish laws).

The question is how are companies acting according to this matter. Are people not operating to an airport with RFF CAT 6 with an A320 or B737?
How about Southend?

Anyone know of an Ops manual that limits in that respect the airports to be planed as destination or alternate due to fire cat? Would you divert to an airport that doesn’t provide the RFF Cat of your aircraft? (I have been flying corporate aviation so that has not been a limitation for me due to the low RFF CAT needed by my aircraft)

[Henry VIII]

Danish CAA website.
I knew the site, thanks anyway. The link refers to DOC 9731, not to 9137. I found no DOC 9137 on that website.Would you divert to an airport that doesn’t provide the RFF Cat of your aircraft? In case of diversion due to tech. emergency my first think is to land the acft asap taking care of possible landing distance increment. All other legal aspects are in second priority.

[justintime5]

Hi,

If anyone has read their ops manual (usually not a best seller) could you please tell me if their is any ref. or limitation regarding the airport Rescue Fire Fighting published category VS aircraft category?

I have a good bet on this matter with a friend and also intrested in knowing what are the real legal limitations of flying into an airport with fire CAT6 with a B737 or even a A340(Cat 7). Can you you dispatch a flight with an alternate with fire category below that one of your aircraft?

[Henry VIII]

Dep & destn airport
Applicable category mandatory, 1 less acceptable as normal practice.
2 category below acceptable for temporary operations and with written permission from head flight ops only.