The impact of the MPL on recruitment

[Shiver me timbers!]

Flybe have adopted the MPL as an additional training channel (albeit probably as a trial) and have plans to open their own training academy by summer 2010 (according to FTN).

If successful, how long until the MPL becomes the standard training route across the majority of airlines?

What implications does this have for current and future wannabes?

Will preference in terms of recruitment be:

1. MPL
2. Integrated non-MPL (that's if all current Integrated schools don't partner with airlines to offer the MPL.
3. Modular (if even considered at all)

I for one, with plans to obtain my CPL/IR by 2012 (modular), am concerned that doors will be slammed shut in my face with a big sign stating MPL only.

What do you think? :confused:

[Adios]

MPL includes a Type Rating. How can you sell that to a wannabe if there isn't a job attached to it?

MPL will only be for tagged, mentored or sponsored cadets. You can count the number of airlines running these programmes on one hand.

The fATPL will be here for a very, very long time, attainable by modular or integrated with job opportunities for both routes determined by the economic conditions, not the existence of a few MPL cadet programmes.

[chongololo]

But surely you will have an advantage with your com/IR over the guy with just a MPL?
You will have more experience as a pilot and have more to offer the company.
Of course the airline won't value that experience and MPL is just a way for them to justify paying you less or in fact having you pay them.
MPL is one of the final nails in the coffin for the profession.

[Reluctant737]

chongololo,

Correct -

In my eyes the MPL is to the fATPL as the NPPL is to the PPL.

Cheers

[Shiver me timbers!]

I'm under the impression that the MPL does come with a job offer - after all, isn't the ideology behind the MPL that it is tailored to an Airlines specific requirements / SOPs?

Henceforth surely there will be no competition amongst CPL/IR holders and MPL's.

Isn't the MPL ultimately going to become what "sponsorship" was back in the day and take the number 1 spot in terms of recruitment preference, thus putting modular further down the pecking order?

[powerstall]

I understand that with an MPL license, you are to work only for a specific airline and a specific type of fleet. Please do correct me if i'm wrong.

[ewsd02]

David UK: At the risk of moving into a different argument, Integrated has never brought better job prospects than modular (apart from CTC), and like the MPL is really only a more efficient way for them to relieve you of cash. If you speak to any training capt, they will tell you that they expect the MPL to die out in time.

What matters is:
1. The reputation of the school you chose
2. That you get a first time IR pass
3. That it doesn't take you significantly longer to pass each bit

After that you are in the same boat as everyone else.

[rogerg]

I have to disagree with ewsd02. I think that the MPL will be the way to go for new airline jobs. If you can get on an MPL course then :-

You will have less debt as the MPL includes the sponsoring airlines type rating, and some of your debt is covered from payments out of your salary.
Dont forget that any type rating has to use someones SOPs so even if it all turns to worms you have valuable multi crew experience in a airline environment.

There are lots of "ifs and buts" but go for for if you get the chance.
As I expect there will be a lot of differing opinions. I will wait and see but as I am involved in the business thats how I see it.

[BEagle]

rogerg, quite so!

The huge advantage to the airline is that they will have selected trainee pilots on their MPL programmes. I also note that at least 2 major companies introducing MPL training have included more 'real' aircraft flying than the mandatory minimum.

FlyBe, for example, will select its first 6 MPL trainees in a 4 stage process. Also, they will receive PA28, PA34 and Firefly (for uspets) training as well as all that simulator work. They will be required to fly solo at some stage, although the MPL does not include any single pilot qualifications.

Lufthansa's MPL cadets will receive some flight training on the Cessna Mustang VLJ at Bremen as part of their course.

As proposed under EASA, the MPL looked very ropey, to my mind. But as prudently adopted by FlyBe, it looks like the 'standard' future for commercial pilot training.

FlyBe have taken a bold step; I predict nothing but success for them and their MPL students.

[Mach086]

Excuse my ignorance and for taking this thread off at a tangent - but why are Flybe even starting this training package (or building an academy), let alone a whole new way of training.

Any wannabee that comes to pprune will get the impression that the aviation world is at its lowest point, hundreds of thousands of experienced pilots out there flipping burgers and 200hr cadets willing to buy a job at Ryanair.

There is a very interesting thread (ongoing for the past couple of years) about the MPL course offered in the Philippines - straight into the RHS of an A320 at Cebu Pacific- cost $70K. Now there has been a lot of problems there (management mostly from what I have gathered) but what most senior pilots were saying was that they could not trust a 70hr pilot to fly the damn thing - therefore the MPL cadet would be reduced to nothing more than a flap operator.

70 hrs being the amount of hours an MPL would get including the 12 take/offs and landings you get in the A320. Is 70 hours the requirement for Flybe or would it still be around the 200 hours?

But still the point remains - why would any airline go through the paperwork and hassle of adopting a new course like an MPL when thousands out there are prepared to pay for a TR?

[rogerg]

Dont forget that the FLYBE Mpls will not be on the line for at least 2years, also they will get pilots that have a lot more than 70hrs and have been trained as they want them.
I dont think that anything that goes on in the Philippines has any relevance here.

70 hrs must be wrong. Is that airplane time, sim time, or what. A Flybe MPL has a similar no of training hrs as an fatpl but more time in a sim.

[Re-Heat]

As BEagle says, selection is key to the process.

If you speak to any training capt, they will tell you that they expect the MPL to die out in time.
As only a tiny minority of traning captains have any experience of MPLs, I would take such views with a pinch of salt.

[Mach086]

rogerg,

actually, the MPL that was being tried in the Philippines since 2007 had the worlds eager eyes on it. This was a bespoke college built top specifically train approximately 120 cadets per year where the majority got a 50% scholarship from Cebu Pacific. Cebu Pacific is the second airline behind Philippine Airlines.

School was Interanationally run, state of the art simulator etc. 0hours to A320 TR within 12 months. I really went all out to get information and decided against it when I realised that the MPL is airline specific, so I couldn't come back to the UK and try and go to an airline here.

So it is very relevant! If the course had gone according to plan and didn't have the problems that occured (I think they only had one cessna registered to fly!) so cadets became an A320 pilot in 12 months, then naturally the whole world was watching.

I suggest everyone who is interested in the MPL read the massive thread on the South-East Asian forum. Only the first few pages mind - afterwards it becomes a slanging match as to why 2 years later, no cadets have graduated yet!

The thread to read is called Clark Institute of Aviation.

In 2007, one of my first posts was "IS MPL Mickey Mouse". If you click on my previous threads you will see it. I got some interesting replies so youc an read the replies to see whther they still hold true in 2009.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

MPL could be:

a) A way of dumbing down and cheapening flying trainig,

or

b) A way of making existing training spend more productive and relative.



Its all in the implementation - Flybe appear to be doing it well. But there's a well known aviation rule of thumb; never fly the Mk1.


The MPL as it stands today is the Mk1.



WWW

[Mach086]

This was one of the replies I recieved to my 2007 post "Is MPL mickey mouse". Apologies for re-igniting a mod vs int debate lol

Just a veiw from the left hand seat of a 78 tonne jet.

Most of the new integrated course first officers I see are only just able to land the jet, won't do a visual approach and are very reluctent to disengage the autopilot above 500ft and as for command decisions........................ that is a long way off!

The Modular guys are usualy much better, with the ability to hand fly the jet to an exeptable standard and are capable of reasonable "command decisions".

This multi crew licence is a disaster in the making and is the invention of accountants and people who have no idea what airline flying is all about and is the next money making plan by the integrated training providers, after all they charge the integrated students about £20,000 more than modular students for the same licence!

Why don't you prospective pilots get together and Kick the whole MCL and integrated course thing into touch.

If you all boycotted the integrated courses and went down the modular route you would all be £20,000 better off and IMO better pilots for it, the industry would have no option to employ you because of the pilot shortage.

The only people that the integrated course benifits is the training providors and the airlines who are all getting money and tax breaks at your expence.

Posted by A and C

I love this sentence though:

"the industry would have no option to employ you because of the pilot shortage"

I'm guessing 2007 was a good year then when this post was written?:)

[rogerg]

Oh well, goodbye thread, WWW, the prune pessimist has invaded!
I speak from many hours in command as a trainer and I see very little difference in the new pilots. What does vary is the company ethos and the ability of the captain to allow the FOs to hand fly.

[ewsd02]

We can argue all day about whether the MPL will or will not become established. The facts and probables are:

1. Previous attempts at the MPL have been unsuccessful, and experiences abroad do matter
2. The industry is sceptical, particularly training Capts
3. If you graduate from an MPL and don't get the job (as has happened) you are screwed in the current job market
3. If the MPL does become established, UK flying training will change massively and many flying schools will fold due to lack of business = impact on all light aircraft flying which feeds many vital elements of UK aviation
4. The big training schools are keen because the financial margins are better on simulators
5. In the future you could find jet flight crews with barely 1000hrs between them
6. New people entering the industry will be blinded by the prospect of a straight to jet job, and need to be aware that the MPL is very much in its infancy and could yet die out.

[quant]

If one had an MPL license how would one change from one airline to another?

[ewsd02]

If you had an MPL now you would be on very low hrs and with virtually no chance of getting into another airline. That is putting aside the fact the other airlines would think twice about taking on an MPL in any case.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

rogerg said

Oh well, goodbye thread, WWW, the prune pessimist has invaded!
I speak from many hours in command as a trainer and I see very little difference in the new pilots. What does vary is the company ethos and the ability of the captain to allow the FOs to hand fly.


Unlike you I'm not an MCC instructor, retired and supplementing my Service pension from student pilots/wannabe airline pilot training fees.. Therefore you'll forgive me for differing from your view from the training industry perspective. From which the MPL is yet another new business opportunity.

I'm sure you don't suffer from pessimism as you're old, crusty and retired. Unlike those of us with babies, mortgages and careers still to manage.

PPRuNe pessimism has so far proved extremely accurate, more than timely and somewhat unique. If you object and live in the training system then perhaps you're more a part of the enemy than the cavalry?

Hmm? Just a thought.

[rogerg]

Unlike you I'm not an MCC instructor, retired and supplementing my Service pension from student pilots/wannabe airline pilot training fees.. Therefore you'll forgive me for differing from your view from the training industry perspective. From which the MPL is yet another new business opportunity.


I dont want to get into a row with WWW but the facts are:-

I have flown with ABC, BCAL, Mearsk, BEA, Brymon, and BA after the take-over plus various others, I dont have a RAF(I was a naughty boy) or any other gold plated pension. What I do have is plenty of experience and now in my present job I get pleasure from helping the new guys and girls and keeping my interest going.
Before thowing the s--t get some facts.

I have suddenly realised this thread is not supposed to be about me or WWW so this will be my last post on this thread.
I still think that the MPL will be the way to go, maybe!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It may be the way to go and in theory it has merit and in practice as Flybe seem to implementing it looks good.

Experience suggests caution though. If we could go back a decade in flying training then I think that would be a better quality of product delivered in a more fair fashion to Wannabes. MCC and SSTR's would not be part of their budget domain for one thing and SPIC hours of 'training' still wouldn't exist and all sorts of other post JAA wonders.

[Shiver me timbers!]

So am I right to be worried?

I'm due to pop out from the modular sausage machine in 2012. Could it be that I'm confronted with red tape..."MPL only"?

I can't be the only one concerned here? Flybe are one of the biggest recruiters of modular students.

:eek: :rolleyes: :{

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Don't worry. MPL is a tiny part of the market and only one airline seems to be dipping its toe in the water. Not that there will be any jobs for any license holder as there may not be any airlines.

As Warren Buffet has termed it - this is an economic Pearl Harbour. After which the world changed forever.

[Mach086]

Dave UK,

I'm not worried and I aim to come out of the same sausage machine 2012.

Unless anyone can correct me, I believe the Flybe/Cabair MPL course is the only authorised scheme to do this course in the UK.

I have not heard of OTT :E, FTE, CTC or other smaller mod schools applying to CAA to conduct this style of training.

Someone earlier mentioned that a pilot on MPL who attains 1500 hours "automatically" becomes ATPL. Please check this fact as I think this is the biggest myth about the MPL.

I have trawled through the interweb to find a definite explanation of this. If someone has it, please copy and paste.

[Groundloop]

Unless anyone can correct me, I believe the Flybe/Cabair MPL course is the only authorised scheme to do this course in the UK.

I'll correct you. The MPL scheme is Flybe/FTE.

[Mach086]

Oops - cheers groundloop :ok:

point of my message still the same though.

[Adios]

EWSD02 wrote "If you had an MPL now you would be on very low hrs and with virtually no chance of getting into another airline. That is putting aside the fact the other airlines would think twice about taking on an MPL in any case."

How is that different from an fATPL holder with low hours? Both are at the bottom of the proverbial dung heap. Does it really matter much which layer, number 7 or number 8, they are on? Both are at high risk of redundancy, and difficulty moving to job number 2.

There is so much rubbish going around about MPL. Perhaps if someone can answer these questions, it will help people assess the risks more effectively:

1. What are the requirements to upgrade from MPL to ATPL and how do they differ from upgrading a ME/CPL/IR/MCC to an ATPL?
2. What will it take for an MPL to upgrade to an ME/CPL/IR/MCC if they are made redundant before achieving an ATPL?

The first point goes towards establishing approximately how long the 'bastard child' period will last. One who is considering the risk of accepting a FlyBe or other MPL seat needs to know how long it will be until they can come in out of the cold with other potential employers.

The second point assumes an MPL would not be marketable to other airlines in the event of redundancy from the company that sponsored the MPL cadet. It goes toward putting a price tag on mitigating the unemployability risk in the early years before a full ATPL is achieved. Once the upgrade path and cost is known, then a cost benefit assessment can be done.

[Mach086]

Adios,

you are right with many of your points regarding knowing a bit more before rubbishing it.

However with regards to EWSD02 "very low hours", what he meant is waaaay below the 250 that a fATPL person would have. Thats the differencehe was mentioning between the MPL and fATPL.

[ewsd02]

In addition, the FATPL would have a fighting chance of air taxi/turbo prop/instruction/photography flying etc etc without having to convert or add ratings having only 70hrs SEP.

Aside from the considerations for the individual, I am also concerned about the affect the MPL could have on GA in the UK. If SEP/MEP flying is reduced or not required as part of the MPL, and the scheme catches on, will this not mean many flying clubs and schools could be in trouble? Great if you are a sim instructor, bad for everyone else in flying training.

As you all know, flying schools breed an interest in aviation feeding commerical flying schools and eventually the airlines.

Interested in your thoughts.

[Mach086]

When I placed my first post "Is MPL Mickey Mouse" back in 2007, I found myself arguing FOR the MPL. I really wanted to do it. 12 months in Philippines, $70000 which equalled £38K at the time - straight into an A320 - Job Done!!!!

All I got back were posts from old-schoolers saying that with 70 hours, they would only let me operate the flaps! I argued against these derogatory with (in hindsight) naive comments:

I argued that you wouldn't pass the TR if you weren't good enough! So you pass it hence you can fly!-Whats the problem? What would an extra 180 hours give me? If I managed to fly an A320 after 70 hours and pass the TR, there would have been no need to do a 250hr fATPL! No expereince of command decisions?-I'll learn that in time, I'm not the captain just yet!

Now do my assumptions still hold true? If they do, then perhaps there is nothing wrong with the MPL and nothing "Mickey Mouse" about it.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

I'll be doing my fATPL the old fashioned mod way :)

[Adios]

More than almost anything else, the PPrune wannabe forums focus on thorough and thoughtful assessment of training related financial risk. It seems to me the dearth of accurate information about MPL makes it hard to perform this function well, to the detriment of the wannabes.

fATPL holders from the big four Integrated courses have about 225 hours with about 140-150 hours in airplanes and the rest in sims. fATPLs from modular training have about 250-260 hours with more in airplanes than the Integrated students get. Do you see a disadvantage in hiring for the Integrated graduate because he has 30-40 hours less in airplanes than the Modular graduate has? If there was such a disadvantage, the airlines that run cadet schemes would not be putting their cadets on Integrated courses.

MPLs are likely to have more total time than fATPL holders at license issue since a Type Rating is bolted on to MPL. They will probably have 70-80 hours in airplanes and the rest in multi-pilot sims.

So which is more relevant, solo SEP and MEP time or multicrew sim time? If money were no object and you had just completed fATPL training and were staring a 1-2 year job search in the face, which would you choose for maintaining currency if you could only do one?

A) 4 hours per month in a heavy jet simulator with another fATPL holder
or
B) 4 hours per month in a piston twin
or
C) 4 hours hours per month in a piston single

The above is a bit of a 'red herring' since you need to revalidate the MEP once a year and you can't do it in a jet sim, but it should provoke a bit more thought about the relative value of various types of flight time.

The wider implications RE: air taxi work, etc. are obviously to the fATPL holders advantage. So what? MPL means one thing, the student has been chosen as an airline cadet in advance. I don't think the pre-selected cadets at various FTOs around Europe give a toss about their chances of getting air taxi work.

If you think you could convince wannabes to self-sponsor an MPL through to Type Rating with no job offer, then a local FTO or TRTO needs you in their sales and marketing department! So far, I don't know of an FTO anywhere offering a self sponsored MPL. I don't think they ever will because wannabes are generally not daft enough to fund a Type Rating without a job offer. As far as the wannabe weighing the self-sponsored fATPL vs. airline mentored/sponsored MPL risk is concerned, this kind of brings us back to the questions I listed above.

WWW has the correct perspective in that one UK airline is testing the waters with MPL. Even if all of the EU airlines that have cadet programmes adopt MPL it will still only account for a small percentage of the market, probably less than 10%. As for his concern that there won't be any airlines left, well, let's just say I detect a Wee bit of hyperbole!

Outside the topic of this thread, there are other debates to hold, such as is MPL a good idea at all? What would happen if the Captain keels over with a heart attack during line training once the safety pilot is gone from the flight deck, etc.?

[Phantasm]

What would happen if the Captain keels over with a heart attack during line training once the safety pilot is gone from the flight deck, etc.?

Personally, I feel that anybody, type rated or not, who holds a fATPL possesses enough knowledge of aircraft systems/flying techniques to be capable of taking over most aircraft and flying it to a successful landing, possibly through being talked down.

Most fATPL ground courses are structured around the Boeing/Airbus systems, including instruction to the use of the MCP, FMC, EICAS/EFIS etc etc

An fATPL holder behind a control column anywhere should be of a standard where they can use their intuition to create a safe result under dire circumstances.

Sure, they may not have '000s of hours of experience, but let's give them credit, they are all highly trained individuals who hold a Commercial Pilot's Licence and an Instrument Rating, with good quality theory to back it up.

Only because we are so used to hearing the term has it lost its appreciation somewhat...

[Groundloop]

I don't think they ever will because wannabes are generally not daft enough to fund a Type Rating without a job offer.

Excuse me! There are plenty of wannabes who do this.

[jez d]

I don't think they ever will because wannabes are generally not daft enough to fund a Type Rating without a job offer.

Excuse me! There are plenty of wannabes who do this

Yes, there may be, but, the EASA/JAA MPL course requires that an airline has direct involvement in the training, consequently there will be no standalone MPL courses on offer in the EU.

[Shiver me timbers!]

Well, 5 years down the line. How is MPL impacting flight training from a recruitment point of view?

[Neptunus Rex]

0hours to A320 TR within 12 months.Imelda's shoes!!!