Downing Street Petition for trainee pilots

[kwb911]

I found a link to this petition on another website (CTC) and thought it may be of interest to others. Link and description of the petition copied from the website below:

Add your name to the Downing Street Petition to award official student status to British trainee professional pilots.

Petition to: award official student status to british trainee professional pilots... | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Student-Pilots/)

More details from petition creator

Air travel is becoming ever more important and the demand for professional pilots is increasing exponentially yet training costs are massive (£35,000 - £100,000), finance is of personal responsibility and qualification offers no guarantee of employment. Therefore many ambitious and talented individuals are hindered or even prohibited from flying careers.

The Government provides loans, grants & incentives to encourage students to attain qualifications which often have little employment value, it backs apprentice schemes in the majority of skilled professions yet it is ignorant to assist aspiring pilots. Furthermore unlike the UK many countries such as France, Sweden and America provide low interest, unsecured tuition/course fee loans to student pilots.

In resolution I propose that the British Government award official student status to trainee professional pilots and thereby provide:

*Entitlement to standard low interest, unsecured student loans (full training course value)

*VAT exemption on training & examinations

*Council Tax exemption & reduced Income Tax

*Discount on learning resources & travel

[v6g]

and the demand for professional pilots is increasing exponentially

Good luck with that one mate!

[James D]

Come off it!

The current government have made some shocking decisions over the past decade but I don't think even they would be stupid enough to buy into this one.

Pure fantasy.

As for this?!
*Entitlement to standard low interest, unsecured student loans (full training course value)

[L'aviateur]

Possibly not the best time for this petition since a plentiful supply of suitably qualified pilots are available, and there is no reason why the government should subsidise more. But well, it's worth a try.

I don't particularly agree with:

Entitlement to standard low interest, unsecured student loans (full training course value)

Since this is an unreasonable request, which I don't see how the government could fulfil and am wondering exactly why the potential pilots should be specificially entitled to this at such a high risk. If you really want to fly, you should go and earn the money and take a loan only for CPL/IR/MCC or a TR.

I do agree that the following should be available, in a similar fashion to other education, but obviously only for 'Professional Training' ( however that could be defined).

*VAT exemption on training & examinations

*Council Tax exemption & reduced Income Tax

*Discount on learning resources & travel

[CABUS]

I am afraid to say that I have already tried this and I hope upon hope that you have more success than I achieved. I contacted the commons through many routes on a wide range of occasions and managed multiple responses including a letters from one of the heads of the CAA explaining what was required and how to go about training for the ATPLf to a letter basically saing that 'the sought after route for commercial flying is through the RAF'....Brilliant!!!

On a serious note if you need copies of my letters PM me and I will forward them on to you, future pilots need all the help they can get!

CABUS:ok:

[preduk]

University students don't even get reduced income tax, travel or learning resources.

[spider_man]

About a decade ago professional pilot training was given NVQ level 4 status for the full frozen ATPL. I think you also had to gain pilot employment to satisfy all aspects of the qualification. If I recall correctly this gave 23% tax relief on ALL pilot training courses provided the student had the intention of becoming a commercial pilot.

The scheme was abused by many flying schools on PPL-for-life students and ultimately abolished. Perhaps they can bring back something similar but more regulated this time?

[clear prop!!!]

Possibly not the best time for this petition since a plentiful supply of suitably qualified pilots are available, and there is no reason why the government should subsidise more.

Well, the same can be said of 90% of the Mickey Mouse degree courses which attract full student support from the government. There are not many jobs for graduates in anything at the moment!

I wish you well, but like others I spent many an hour fighting this one with my local MP etc .. all I ended up with was a painfull head from banging it against a very hard brick wall!!:ugh:

The NVQ mentioned above got the VAT removed from training (17.5%), and was indeed abused. All you had to do was sign up with an approved school and complete a very complex and pointless blue folder at each stage of your training.

There was nothing to stop you not filling in the stupid ill conceived blue folder or,dropping out after gaining a PPL.

When your training was complete.. you got an NVQ certificate to frame!!

As all anyone wanted was a licence, and, from memory only one NVQ certificate was issued, and the scheme was withdrawn!

You get more support learning to drive a bus or doing a degree in History of Art or...David Beckham studies – (Staffordshire University)!!!!

VAT on commercial training is the BIG argument.

Good luck!

[Guava Tree]

Hoary old chestnut , this one, its origins dating back more than thirty years and perhaps more than double that.
A flower that was never, and will not for a long time, be pollinated.
...... unless you believe Harold Camping, but that would be a poisoned chalice, as there would be no time to enjoy the fruits.

[quant]

Great idea but i won't be signing as i simply do not want the competition. If this happens there will be an explosion of wannabe pilots and that in my opinion is a bad thing.

Sorry if that sounds selfish but i worked hard for the money needed for flight training and you could earn it to through some hard work yourself.

Good luck :p

[clear prop!!!]

Sorry if that sounds selfish

Yup!!!:rolleyes:

[skyhighbird]

I'm with quant on this one and it is not selfish at all.

I came from a background where my parents earned abover the threshold so we got no benefits, but we were probably poorer than most as they had 6 kids!!

I have read so many sad stories here about how hard people have worked to try to become a pilot. G-Sixty as one example. The stresses, the strains. Marriage breakdowns. There are other stories too about wanabees sacrificing pretty much all they have for "the dream". Working full time and studying until un-godly hours as they could not afford to leave work completely.

But guess what - this shows how much they want it and how they would do anything. If you want to become a pilot and it is in your blood, then you could EASILY save the money (inc TR) and more in less than 10 years. Yes its a long time to wait if you are intent on becoming a pilot, then you would do anything.

DO NOT get the government involved. Because once they do, you can bet your mortgage that they will start pushing around quotas -race, religion, sex, backgrounds. Extra benefits for "poverty stricken" teens (even though their homes are already kitted out with 52" wide screens an playstations.

The moment the governement start giving tax handouts (which ultimately come from the public purse) then quotas MUST be met. it;s a simple case - spread the wealth.

The market WILL be flooded and that is certainly something no one wants - especially if those people managed to get their training done purely becasue they had extra benefits that the rest of us didn't get.

If you get a petition signed by X amount of people, I can asure you that an opposing petition will be signed by 1000X amount of people.

DO NOT get the government involved (did I say that already?)

So NO NO NO NO

[Johnny Redd]

Bring back NVQ!!!! Its greatly helped the flying training industry out of the last recession.

The revenue pulled it last time because they said that not enough pilots qualified.

errr hello.............that may because it only ran for a few years and the last hurdle was being assessed on a line sector by a fully accredited assessor after "at least 6 months of professionally flying turbine powered aircraft".

Well it took me at least 5 years to get that far and by then the qualification was no longer available.............:ugh:

Would have given me a degree equivalent qualification for what it was worth :8

[skyhighbird]

Johnny - don't quite understand your reply,

judging by the posts here, the flying training industry certainly needs no help in the recession - they are still pumping out cadets in their hundreds - each one with close to 0% chance of getting a job and perhaps a 5% chance if they could afford a TR.

[kwb911]

This petition was not started by myself I have only attached the link to it. The link is on the CTC website and I thought it was a worthwhile cause so I have brought it to this forum. I am not sure why some people are against it, maybe it will not help but if you don't try then certainly nothing will happen.

When I learnt to fly we used to get the tax back on training if you completed a NVQ commercial flying as already mentioned earlier in this thread (this was approx 10 years ago) and this certainly helped my finances.

I think anything that helps will be a bonus..

[kwb911]

Great idea but i won't be signing as i simply do not want the competition. If this happens there will be an explosion of wannabe pilots and that in my opinion is a bad thing.

Sorry if that sounds selfish but i worked hard for the money needed for flight training and you could earn it to through some hard work yourself.

Good luck http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif


I have also paid for my flying and training over the years but I would also support future pilots in their training. Other countries support pilot training and so why can't we support british pilots? This is not to give an explosion of pilots or remove the issue of people paying for their training...

[clear prop!!!]

I CANNOT believe the self centered attitude of some of the posters on this thread.

'I paid more ..so why should anyone else pay less'

Get a life guys. This is a forum where we are supposed to help fellow would be pilots!

Even IF.. and it is a big IF, something were to be done it would take years to pass through our extremely efficent Parliment system and, those who would benefit would be well behind you!!

The best that could be hoped for, in the short term, would be the removal of VAT on commercial training....15%off... is that going to create a flood of new wannabees and put you at the bottom of the pile Quant? If so you have much more to worry about!

Fortunatley I got through most of my training with the help of NVQ status and, am more than happy to see future pilots get all the help they can.

If thats a problem...go get that degree in David Beckam studies...it's more suited to a selfish dimeanor, and, you'll get Government help!!!

[skyhighbird]

I don't think those of us (myself included) who are against this position are self-centred selfish etc. A lot has changed in a decade.

If you give tax breaks to those in professional pilot training (like is already happening at the moment - degrees, NVQs, nurse/doctor training) then this politically correct society will want to see an uptake of pilot wannabees that reflect the current demographic of society. They will also want to see the flight crew representative of those who were given tax breaks - i.e all walks of life.

Therefore this is bad news (not from a social exclusion point of view - do not even think about accusing me of any sort of ISM) but for the hiring of pilots.

Because of what I said in the my second paragraph, the government HAS to and will find an official and far more formal way of ensuring airlines hire from all groups that benefited from the public purse (tax breaks). Therefore merits are thrown out of the window during recruiting and a few will have to be chosen (by default) in order to reflect that society.

A decade ago I don't think there would have been a problem. But nowadays everyone is scared of their own shadow. Any major institution that benefits from the public purse must have a workforce that reflects the people that benefited from that public purse. Police, NHS, forces etc. Is this a bad thing using these examples? Some could argue not.

But in this industry where people sacrifice all they have to be a pilot, you would want to know that if you were unsuccesful at an interview stage, it was based on merits rather than someone else gaining your place on default.

So I change my stance slightly. If it wasn't England and it wasn't 2009, then YES, I would sign that petition. But now? Not a chance.

PS. The petition link was on the CTC forum? hmmm I wonder why!

[nibs2007]

Hello All

Many Thanks Craig you doing an excellent job, I hope N0:10 Looks into this and seroiulsy do something about this.

Wish you all the very best.

Safe Flying


Nabeel

[SefonSA]

Hi

I signed this along time ago, and as me and the creator (both already on our way & nearly broke!) as do most of you know, it is a great financial hardship to follow your flying dreams.

Thus whilst there are alot of points on this petition which some find contentious. It was done with the intention of atleast getting some attention to our current plight, not scrounging for benefits!


PLEASE SIGN IT

More details here ...Pilot-Career... (http://www.pilot-career.co.uk/)

[clear prop!!!]

If it wasn't England and it wasn't 2009, then YES, I would sign that petition. But now? Not a chance.


Well, looks like those of you in Scotland Wales and NI are OK then:rolleyes::O

[skyhighbird]

lol Clear prop - you know what I meant.:)

SefonSA, I did my best to put my point across without writing a thesis on the implications of getting this government involved in today's modern PC climate.

I know exactly where you are coming from and your intentions and the means to an end are admirable - but highly dangerous. So lets get some examples.

You are in a flight training school of 50 cadets. 40 of which are white, male with working/middle class whose parents still had to remortgage their house, spend life savings etc for you to get on the course. - with your petiton, these cadets will get VAT cuts and everything else you ask for.

The other 10 are made up of some females (white and other ethnicity), some from mixed backgrounds in terms, not just in terms of ethnicity, but also in terms of social backgrounds as well. Naturally they also worked hard to realise their dream of starting flight training- so savings etc, parents also would have remortgaged their houses etc. They will also get benefits in terms of VAT cuts and everything else you asked for in the petition.

So everyone is equal so far. Doesn't matter where you came from, what sex, what your background is, all 50 cadets saved X amount of money and are now getting the relevant tax cuts you asked for in your petition.

Now, you all pass, every one has the same qualifications and previous educational experience. You all go for the pilot interview with 10 places up for grabs. Now imagine the best 10 out of the 50 were white males? Do you seriously think they would get the places? With PUBLIC money being spent, quotas must be met because the workforce will need to be a reflection of the PUBLIC who gave us that money. Therefore, merits are thrown out of the window - just like in ANY organisation in britain.

Sure you could argue that the Chief pilot, head of recruitment etc will never allow this to happen - yeah right. they will be FORCED to follow government quotas because everyone benefited form the public purse. The recruitment team are not as powerful as you think!:}

Becasue all 50 benefited form the public purse, quotas have to be met to show that there was no discrimination at the interview. And remember, the airline pilot interview will be under the most spotlight.


This is not me making this stuff up. This is present in EVERY institution. The airline industry is not special.

Your intentions are admirable, but with the worst possible results. Don't take my word for it. Look around you.

[HM001]

Skyhighbird,

Nice to see the BNP has an aviation affairs department....

[skyhighbird]

HM001 - I'll take that as a tongue-in-cheek comment used to illustrate some kind of point.

Being half malay, half english, I doubt the'll have me.

[HM001]

skyhighbird

They have half Turkish-Cypriot half English members so they may take you.

Eitherway some of your comments worry me slightly.

The petitions original intention was simply to give all of us a fighting chance when it came to the high costs of persuing this vocation, you have tried to illustrate that what will happen is something ridiculous involving minorities 1st which I find offensive.

Your comments make me believe that if you were a captain with a (insert minority here) in the right seat, your 1st thought would probably be that they were given the job due to some government pressure on the company as opposed to ability and actually being good during an interview.

[skyhighbird]

HM001,

I did not mean to cause offence and apologise to any that may have thought so.

I was just trying to outline the fact that if the public purse is used to give tax benefits to anyone, regardless of sex, background, class or ethnicity, then in this modern era, the people that ultimately make up the workforce upon completion of training must be a reflection of the public spectrum that gave the funds.

I am mixed race and female. If I was up against a group of middle class males who were much better than me at the interview and test, do you seriously think that in any institution they would still get the jobs and I wouldn't - if we all benefited from the public purse? I reckon I'd be there on default. Happens everywhere.

I was merely playing devils advocate.

Please understand that I am merely expressing my own humble opinion and apologise if my comments have been taken out of context.

It was not my intention.

friends HM001? :)

[kerofai]

Hello. I appreciate the support and discussion regarding the petition... update coming soon at website below.

Craig Baker
Pilot-Career.co.uk (http://www.pprune.org/Pilot-Career.co.uk)