View Full Version : Commercial Ops without AOC
Mike Litoris
1st Mar 2009, 12:55
I believe that it is/was allowed to operate commercial operations without an AOC provided that:
1. the pilot was a CPL and rated appropriately, and
2. the aircraft had to take-off and land at the same airfield, and
3. that the aircraft was an ex warbird, and
4. the purpose of the flight was for aerobatics, and not sightseeing.
Is this still the case? or have the rules changed? I've tried to find it in the regs and the casa website to no avail.
many thanks
Mike
bizzybody
1st Mar 2009, 20:24
Dont worry about what the reg may have said in the past. CASA are on the hunt for people doing it and the list is getting longer of people getting done.
Speak to FLOG on this forum, he does warbirds and he knows the regs regarding adventure flighs. CAR 210
VH-XXX
1st Mar 2009, 21:00
You are referring to a Warbird operation operating an aircraft under the Limited category. It is administered by the Warbird mob so you would need to contact them for a copy of the requirements. Pretty easy really and the are called "Adventure flights."
bizzybody
1st Mar 2009, 21:40
yeah what he said
CAR 262AM.
PM me for more info if you want.
chimbu warrior
1st Mar 2009, 22:49
I don't think it is mandatory to do aerobatics.
That may just be an option.
Wanderin_dave
1st Mar 2009, 23:55
It is when I'm flying!!! :}
bizzybody
2nd Mar 2009, 00:01
Well done Flog!!!
VH-XXX
2nd Mar 2009, 01:45
It all depends on how you choose to give the passenger their "adventure" flight. For some that might be a hand sliding up the leg under the skirt, but for others a quick barrell roll might do the trick.
For some that might be a hand sliding up the leg under the skirt
I knew there was a reason I should have a CT-4 online instead of the Yak.
LeadSled
2nd Mar 2009, 02:52
Folks,
You need to read the rules carefully, Part 21.189, and CAR 262AM/AN, and ACs.
Not all the permitted uses listed in 21.189 can be conducted without an AOC.
"Adventure Flights"(one permitted use in Limited Cat.) do not need an AOC, but that does not mean it's open slather, the relevant restrictions for Adventure Flights are contained in the Regs., ACs., and the operating restriction contained in the Annex. to the Limited Cat. C.of A for the individual aircraft, and last but no least, compliance with the AWAL Adventure Flight compliance guide.
There are a raft of "commercial" operations that DO NOT need an AOC, ONLY those listed in Reg. 206, and that list will shrink if the new regs. ever get in place.
Private Flying, including cost sharing and Adventure Flights conducted by a PPL, are not permitted, but private flying probably should be permitted, and may be in the future, but require a rules change.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled has the long of it.
Interesting upshot of the 262AM Limited Cat regs is, as he says, that I'm not allowed to take my Yak and just go somewhere in it for fun. I have to be operating it as either an adventure flight, or it has to be a practice flight in support of an adventure operation, or for maintenance or some other stuff but all boring.
Now, as for the definition of practice...
Mike Litoris
2nd Mar 2009, 06:31
Thanks for the info guys. :ok:
By the way, what is the definition of "Adventure flight"? Anyone? It could really mean almost anything!!
triton140
2nd Mar 2009, 06:47
By the way, what is the definition of "Adventure flight"? Anyone? It could really mean almost anything!!
Not sure - Part 21.189 refers to "operating historic or ex-military aircraft in adventure style operations", whereas the exemptions in CAR262AM use terminology like "part of an intrinsically hazardous recreational activity".
Maybe its not defined - flog will know, I'm sure .....
VH-XXX
2nd Mar 2009, 09:18
Try and think of the whole flight experience as the adventure - eg. some of the operators particularly the jet ones do a full flight briefing, dressing in the combat suit, briefing for mock bombing run, then go out and do it, then run a "mission" briefing.
No really well written definition anywhere for "Adventure Flight" but the interpretation can be had from the reason for creation of the Limited CofA and 262AM in the first place, which is to allow the general public to experience flight in a warbird. (if you want to get cynical it was to aviod having to administrate anyone that owned a warbird, but I like my view better).
I use the definition that it's any flight in a non standard category aircraft for the purpose of fun and fun alone.
Trojan1981
3rd Mar 2009, 02:21
flog
that I'm not allowed to take my Yak and just go somewhere in it for fun. I have to be operating it as either an adventure flight
Is this ever likely to change? I was considering purchasing an ex 'warbird'. but the restrictions seem to be a bit ambiguous to say the least.
LeadSled
5th Mar 2009, 09:35
Trojan1981,
Read ALL the regulations (CARs and CASRs), the ACs, and then talk to one of the people who actually issue the C.of A., eg; Dines Aviation, and pick their brains.
Then you will be able to work out whether there are any practical restrictions. ie: Commuting in a Trojan would hardly be a proposition, so the fact that you can't will not really be a restriction.
The "rules" surrounding this type of operation are no more rubbery than Reg. 206, if you are looking for "black and white" definitions and legal clarity and certainty, you shouldn't be anywhere near aeroplanes.
Tootle pip!!