Russian plane threatens Canada and USA?

[rotornut]

CTV.ca | Russia hits back at Canada about bomber flights (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090227/Russia_planes_090227/20090227?hub=TopStories)

"Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Russian intrusions are a "real concern" to his government."

OK, Mr. Harper, you really are as stupid as you look!

[RatherBeFlying]

The Russians have been sending military flights up to NORAD airspace for some months now. It helps keep the crews current and helps the NORAD folks stay in practice.

Harper's been looking for hot button issues to goose the polls prior to ditching parliament for another election:}

[-JC-]

Other media sources report the Bears entered a portion of international airspace that Canada controls.

Canadian jets intercepted the Russian aircraft – commonly referred to as “Bears” – about 190 kilometres northeast of Tuktoyaktuk, N.W.T. They had entered a portion of international airspace under Canada's monitoring and control.

globeandmail.com: Jets scrambled to intercept plane (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090227.wrussia0227/BNStory/politics/home)

Any idea what altitude these things operate at ? If nothing else wouldn't they be in violation of some ICAO regulation for entering controlled airspace without a clearance ? Instead of a CF-18 maybe they should have sent a Transport Canada Twin Otter after them to issue them a violation and fine ?

190km (103nm) northeast of Tuktoyaktuk (if it's even reported correctly) would put them well within the Edmonton FIR and deep in to the Canadian Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ) in the vicinity of NCA Track 32 and M454, tracks commonly used by commerical aircraft operating between North America and Asia. I presume they don't turn their transponder on, so take it to the UN and complain they are a hazard to commerical aviation interests.

-JC-

[Minorite invisible]

Other media sources report the Bears entered a portion of international airspace that Canada controls.

Quote:
Any idea what altitude these things operate at ? If nothing else wouldn't they be in violation of some ICAO regulation for entering controlled airspace without a clearance ?
190km (103nm) northeast of Tuktoyaktuk (if it's even reported correctly) would put them well within the Edmonton FIR and deep in to the Canadian Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ) in the vicinity of NCA Track 32 and M454, tracks commonly used by commerical aircraft operating between North America and Asia.

International airspace is.... international. No one owns it. Even if a country is responsible to provide air traffic services within an FIR (Such as Edmonton is in this case), that FIR is not that country's airspace when over international waters. A country's territorial airspace is all airspace within 12 km of its coasts, so technically, to violate Canadian Airspace, a foreign aircraft has to come inside of 12 km (Edit: 12 miles, sorry) of Canada's coasts (Canada claims that airspace and waters in between the Arctic islands, even when more than 12 miles off the coast, are Canadian, something some other countries such as the US, does not recognize)

The Arctic Control area where the Bears operate, is uncontrolled from F180 to F270. The Northern Control area, is uncontrolled from F180 to F230.

About needing clearance when above and below these flight levels, I am not certain.

[Frankie_B]

I wonder where those CF18s would be based?

[grizzled]

Would have launched from Inuvik. Technically based at Cold Lake, but they have a FOB at Inuvik and do rotations there.

[er340790]

How old are those 'Bears' now???

As a kid, used to watch the RAF Lightnings scramble ( :cool: :cool: :cool: ) from Binbrook to chase them away....

[CaptW5]

Tu-95 BEAR (TUPOLEV) - Russian and Soviet Nuclear Forces (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/tu-95.htm)

[rigpiggy]

About as old as the B52's

[rigpiggy]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publications/tp14371/images/RAC2-13.gif

having flown extensively in that area, I will have to disagree.

[Willie Everlearn]

Minorite invisible
Are you kidding us? :ugh:
If the Russians can shoot down a Civilian Airliner for shi**y navigation skills then I guess a Russian Bomber flying illegally in Canadian Airspace is entitled to the same treatment.

I'm obviously dumber than Harper.
If I were PM, and the Bears had no 'official' status in our airspace, no overflight clearances, no "legitimate" reason to be there, they'd be warned once, told once and shot down once.
It's called maintaining your soverignity. Something Harper says he intends to do. :D
Good thing I'm not prime minister. Eh? :=

[grizzled]

I see the chart (as per your link) but I don't know what it is you're disagreeing with.
Clarify?

[Minorite invisible]

Willie Everlearn, that is the whole point: the Russians DID NOT enter Canadian airspace. On the other hand, the two Korean Airlines aircraft the Soviets shot down (right or wrong), had both entered Soviet Airspace.

Korean Air Lines Flight 902 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902)

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007)

[Otterman]

The real point is not related to aviation, but related to the territorial ambitions of the world’s largest country. And undoubtedly it has to do with the mineral resources that are present. The Russian Federation is morally bankrupt, immoral, and corrupt to the core. At best it belongs to the second world, and without its own resources would be more likely to slide towards the third world, than joining the first world. Putting that aside it has enough military resources to cause a lot of headaches. The best thing for the world is for oil prices to remain low, this way it will curtail these mobsters masquerading as world leaders.

Back in the mid-eighties I was flying between Tuktoyaktuk and Sachs Harbour in a twin otter (empty after dropping off some cargo), and we saw what looked like a ship, in a place that you never, ever saw ships. We went for a closer look and saw the big red star on the conning tower as we got closer, with sailors running on deck, we turned tail very quickly. This was indeed a Soviet submarine (remember those days?) on the surface. We reported this to the DoD, but never heard anything about it afterwards.

I hope Canada with the help of NATO will keep a very tight rein on these nuts.

[rotornut]

I'm obviously dumber than Harper.

As one of my professors used to say: "Who can argue the opposite?"

[Minorite invisible]

This was indeed a Soviet submarine (remember those days?) on the surface. We reported this to the DoD, but never heard anything about it afterwards.


That must have been quite an exciting sighting, but looking at the map and your description of the event, if that submarine was 30 or 40 NM offshore, it was in.....International waters. If that was the case, he could not be attacked for being there.

[rigpiggy]

Under UNCLOSIII

They would have been in territorial waters, and subject to
the following section

Territorial waters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters) Out to 12 nautical miles from the baseline, the coastal state is free to set laws, regulate use, and use any resource. Vessels were given the right of "innocent passage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage)" through any territorial waters, with strategic straits allowing the passage of military craft as "transit passage", in that naval vessels are allowed to maintain postures that would be illegal in territorial waters. "Innocent passage" is defined by the convention as passing through waters in an expeditious and continuous manner, which is not “prejudicial to the peace, good order or the security” of the coastal state. Fishing, polluting, weapons practice, and spying are not “innocent", and submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag. Nations can also temporarily suspend innocent passage in specific areas of their territorial seas, if doing so is essential for the protection of its security.

[Westward_Bound]

Hey why is it that the northern section of our ADIZ is below our northern most island? Shouldn't the ADIZ protect every inch of our land? By the time you intercept the ADIZ heading south, you're already pretty much halfway into the North West Territories, and Nunavut! If you notice everywhere else the ADIZ is offshore of land.

What's up with that?

[Westward_Bound]

I'd actually really like to know the answer without having to start a new thread, if anyone knows?

[rotornut]

Russian flights were nothing out of ordinary, MPs told

TheStar.com | Canada | Russian flights were nothing out of ordinary, MPs told (http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/607187)

RatherBe... a propos of your post:

"This is a kind of diversion," said Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre. "Clearly, I think that the government of Canada tried to play some games here."

[sec 3]

Canada is led by wimps and pacifists who would never fire the first shot:}

[Willie Everlearn]

I'd have to check, but I believe the Canadian Armed Forces were re-named by PET. Are they not presently known as the Canadian Forces??? Armed sounds so intimidating for a military. Especially a Canadian Force.
Maybe that explains why our Canadian Forces bomber squadrons don't rehearse tactical maneuvers by flying in a threatening manner 'toward' the former Soviet Union, whether inside or outside International Airspace or Russian airspace for that matter.
Wait a minute! Canada doesn't have a bomber squadron.
Oh dear, now what?

It all seems so silly.