F-4 Phantom

[beachbumflyer]

Hi guys,

Was the F-4 Phantom a really good aircraft?
If it was, why?
Thanks.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fast, rugged, good radar, huge load carrier.

Compared with many contemporary fighters it had double the number of missiles for a start.

and with more time

In RAF service it could carry 9x1000lbs or bombs and the SUU. As an interceptor it could actually get to height.

It also outstanding as it was a naval fighter turned MRCA.

It had its problems though. Initially a hit on its aileron jack could cause total loss of flying control hydraulics. Too much burner could empty the fuselage tanks and with no wing fuel tanks you could be a glider with 14k fuel remaining. It had no fire extinguishers.

[1.3VStall]

The F-4 Phantom? A triumph of thrust over aerodynamics!

[forget]

Produced 1958–1981
Number built 5,195.
Next?

[Dark Helmet]

Read and enjoy this thread (when you have a few spare hours):

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/124675-f4-phantom.html

[kluge]

Still wonderful rereading this.... red wine helps.

[thegypsy]

Come on BEagle. Where are you?

[FlightTester]

The F-4 Phantom? A triumph of thrust over aerodynamics!

The aero's always win in the end though - if you've ever seen the video of the Phantom coming apart during a max Q high speed time trial around a closed course you'll know what I mean.:\

[mr fish]

never saw them with the f4, but i bet the BLUE ANGELS short time with the type was a pretty awesome sight!!!

[gashman]

They don't tend to work on fires, (but are useful for mech-fails) because the air flow tends to blast the foam out of the engine before it can do its job. Because of the extra weight of a system vs usefulness, the UK Typhoon doesn't have them. Because it doesn't matter with one engine, the F16 doesn't either.

[Geehovah]

Before the arrival of the F15A we had the only pulse doppler equipped, look down shoot down, beyond visual range fighter in Europe. King of the roost - for a short time anyway.

Great aircraft in its day

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/56PAIR.jpg

[airfoilmod]

In 1970 used the F4. LOUD. BIG. Very large Loops. Huge ops area. Not a nimble Beast, there was plenty of SMOKE, but most of it was Black.

Did I say LOUD?

Delivered w/o a gun. Missiles, ya know?

A Friend flew it FAC in umm...... Thailand, Right?

The last of the Best.

AF

[Saintsman]

there was plenty of SMOKE

Not from the Speys there wasn't.

[wiggy]

My lasting memories:

The beast had a very, very impressive envelope at lowish level ( 750 KIAS clean at Sea Level AFAIR), but with the Spey engines you could be bust said envelope very quickly if you weren't paying attention. Seem to remember somone bugging out on an Aggressors sortie and the canopies starting to melt .

The best AD weapons platform in Europe for a short while (:ok: Geehovah).

As for: "It didn't have fire extinguishers".....:{ :{ :{

[wileydog3]

The F-4 fast FACs were indeed out of Thailand. A couple of the callsigns were Atlanta and Wolf. Spent many a night near the Thai/Laotian/Cambodian border providing fuel to those guys. As a former FAC in Vietnam, I could only envy them for the job they had and the airplane they had to FAC from...

[BEagle]

Come on BEagle. Where are you?

Sorry, thegypsy, I was on my way home from Germany.

The F-4 was an excellent aircraft. During our OCU, the USMC exchange officer gave us some figures and said that the F-4 was regarded even by the US, with its F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 fleets, as one of the most capable fighters around.

With a powerful radar, 4 x SkyFlash, 4 x AIM-9L and the SUU gun, it was a very potent beast indeed.

[lastmanstanding]

Best beat up ever I've seen in Deci during the late 80's

Same Det as the "other" Uk visitors(XV) from RAFG decided it would be a jape to paint their no plate on our a/c. SEngo went ballistic and demanded their SEngo paint out the XV's on the a/c.

However a lot of the tail numbers were XV123 etc....

You can guess the rest :ugh:

[Akrotiri bad boy]

It's the only aircraft I worked on where the groundcrew toolkit included a sledgehammer. Pass me that big hammer, pass me that big spanner: this aeroplane was BIG.

[kluge]

What were the doors on the aft fuselage used for on the Spey engined F4's ?

In some pics I've seen I recall that they were open on take off. Always intrigued me.

Thank you.

K

[Out Of Trim]

Auxiliary Air Intake Doors - I believe

[glad rag]

Yep same as the ones below and with a razor edged titan seal, you only made THAT mistake once!:{

[matkat]

Aux air doors only opened on start up, surprised no one mentioned as well as no fire extinguishers it never had a battery either.Wonderfull A/C after all my civilian experience licenses and type ratings it is the only A/C I can say that I truely knew inside out (maintenance 43 & 111 squadrons)

[soddim]

Didn't have a parking brake either - seat strap tightened around the emergency pneumatic brake handle worked OK provided pneumatics didn't deplete before you got the chocks in.

Great multi-role aircraft from the days when the weapons went where the crew aimed them - no kit errors, just poor weaponry if you missed.

And the Suu-23 was something else - what a wonderful noise and a real tight bullet group.

Rockets too - much better than those cluster things that so upset the civvies but did square root of bu**er all to the target.

Still enjoy seeing it as a gate guard - the last fighter in the RAF with real character.

[mr fish]

what chance of a civvy phantom??
don't laugh, the buccs do all right in SA and a couple of STARFIGHTERS in the states.
jeez, if the widowmaker can be privately flown, surely a rhino!!!

[forget]

What chance of a civvy phantom??

100% :ok:

F-4 air to air (http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/Misc/F4dAirToAir/index.html)

[XV490]

F4Js at Wattisham

I've always assumed 74 Sqn crews had to wear their American Gentex helmets to fit in with all the US-spec furniture, sockets, tubes and knobs on their F4Js. Was there anything other American clobber they had to don to function properly in the office?

[brickhistory]

"Another pilot, then Captain Dave Lucia, and the last pilot to go through Weasel training described what it was like checking out in the F-4G:

I came to George following a tour as an ALO (air liaison officer – a USAF fighter pilot assigned to a US Army combat unit) with the 82d Airborne Division. I had jumped into Panama as part of Operation Just Cause and was ready to get back into a cockpit.

Since I hadn’t flown the F-4 before (I’d been an OA-37 and OV-10 forward air control pilot prior to going to the Army), I had to learn to fly the F-4E at the 21st TFTS there at George. My first flight was just a few days before DESERT SHIELD kicked off.

Compared to more modern jets like the F-16, the F-4 was like an old Cadillac. After cranking engines, the air conditioner wouldn’t work until you were airborne so we did all our ground ops with the canopies up. I’d run the seat up to where I could look over the top of the canopy bow and feel the breeze in my face. That was a great feeling.

Another difference about the F-4 was that once airborne, it talked to you. You had to listen to what it was telling you. You could hear the wind noise change around the canopy as you maneuvered the jet. You could feel it start to shake if you started pushing it beyond its limits. If you kept pushing, it could get away from you and stall.
I always felt that the F-4 required more pure airmanship – the skills needed to fly the jet smoothly – than does the F-16 where the computer does a lot of the work for you.

Ergonomically, the F-4’s cockpit was horrible. The visibility was not very good. The side of the jet was about level with your shoulders so to see down or back you had to roll it to see.

The lights could be so bright on a night sortie that you put tape over them to blank them out. We stowed our stuff in various places, wherever there was room. I’d tuck my charts into the sides of the front instrument panel coaming. I’d throw my helmet bag with snacks and water and other junk in the space to the sides of the ejection seat.

Another aspect that took some getting used to was having another guy fly with you. Although I really learned to like the crew concept, at first it was strange. When first flying with a backseater, I tended to be more formal and use the checklists words, but once you got to know each other, you could tell what the other was thinking by just a grunt or a single word.

Even landing the massive Phantom presented challenges according to Lucia,
The forward viz in the F-4 was never great. With the [gun]sight, canopy framing and the ‘Rhino’s’ long nose, it was nearly impossible to see ahead. During the landing, I’d again run my seat up as high as it would go to be able to see just a little straight ahead.

You could feel it as you got into ground effect and could touch down really smoothly most times. When it was raining, however, I always planted it firmly to avoid the risk of hydroplaning. (The F-4, due to the nearly perfectly triangular positioning of the nose and main landing gear developed a reputation for this).

Almost always, I got some sort of comment from the backseat about my landing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although he did not fly one of the F-4G’s to Bahrain, Dave Lucia described his technique for taking gas thusly:

In the F-4, the canopy bow was right in your line of sight for looking at the tanker and gauging your reference points. I’d run my seat up higher than normal to be able to see over the bow just prior to the AAR (air to air refueling).

I’d move into pre-contact position about 50 feet below the tanker, matching the tankers speed and heading, then once stabilized and cleared into contact either via the radio if in peacetime or via visual signals if working under EMCON (emission conditions – no radio transmissions).

The boomer would then plug into the jet and I’d adjust my rearview mirror on the canopy bow to see the ‘apple,’ a bright orange plastic ball on the boom just ahead of the end of the boom itself. If I kept that centered in the mirror, I knew I stayed within the limits of the boom and could stay on there with constant, minor control inputs.

-----------------------------------
Some of the tricks Schreiner used to get gas were similar.

I’d run my seat up high to see the director lights above the bow and use the mirrors to fly the apple. Unfortunately for me, when I ran the seat up, it was hard for me to reach the rudder pedals.

If I was down to around 3,000lbs of fuel (aircraft fuel is measured in pounds, not gallons. This convention makes it easier to do fuel burn/flight time remaining calculations vital to the relatively short-legged fighters) it could take nearly ten minutes to fill both the internal and three external ‘bags.’

I’d have to keep trimming during that time as the AOA (angle of attack – essentially the angle between where the wing is pointing and where it is going) keeps increasing.
Eventually, the AOA could become so great that the leading edge slats (airfoils on the outer leading edges of the F-4s wing, used to increase lift at slow speeds) would deploy automatically. Because they deployed so quickly, the jet’s pitch changed drastically and it was easy to overcorrect into a PIO (pilot induced oscillation) and fall off the boom. Since getting gas and getting out of the way so the next guy could plug in is your goal, this is not a good thing to have happen.

I’d usually manually lock the slats in prior to AAR to avoid that happening. I learned about that the hard way during the war. Nobody had told me about it, and I’d never taken on that much gas during training so didn’t see it then either.

Anyway, as we got topped off, the three ‘full’ lights on the canopy bow would illuminate once the externals were full and they didn’t fill until the internal tanks were full, so you knew you were crammed with as much as you could take. Once I got the three lights, I’d disconnect and drop down to assume tactical formation again off the tanker’s wing."

[Madbob]

The anwser is yes! The combined harness with koch fasteners, US "water wings", and everything else that went with it. Even US flying suits (for a time at least)...

G trousers remained British....but they were probably a copy of a USAF issue anyway!

MB

[XV490]

Thanks, MB.

Do you know who painted the tiger's head on many of the Gentex helmets? I've got one, and would never part with it!

[CWGrizwald]

Anyone here survive the Pharewell party at Wattersham, I think it was spring 92 (those brain cells must have died as a result). A bunch of us came up from RAF Woodbridge. The best party I can barely remember. Things that stick out are the home made bangers the size of Mk-82s flying around the club, the mini races around the HAS's, not sure how many pianos were burned and finally, the Aussie impressing the girls by flossing his huge nose with a condom, oh, and meeting the girl who did the talk downs at Marham and being pleased to see she had the looks to go with that beautiful voice. Anyway, we didn't manage to stagger home until sometime the next morning, needless to say there were more than a few pissed off wives. One of our chaps even got home to find a suitcase sitting out on the front step and the door securly locked.:ok::eek:

[Dengue_Dude]

I remember pitching up in Albert to Wattisham, Leuchars etc to take the 'tooms' off to APC (holidays . . .)

I've never and I mean NEVER seen an aircraft that looked so damned business-like parked on the ASP. It looked mean, and capable and BEAUTIFUL.

I mourn that we don't see them any more - from a spectator's viewpoint, it was a great (big) aircraft.

[alwayslookingup]

As a kid in Coningsby (68-74) we always knew when the "American" Phantoms were in town. The first thing was the distinctive screech/howl as they joined the pattern. Once we heard that we'd look up to see the smoke (plenty of it!). They also had the gun muzzle below the nose. Lastly, the cam paint job was different, so they were easy to spot. Airfield beat ups seemed common and it was standard to hear the whummmfff as a pair arrived on the break almost simultaneous with the sound.

I lived on Main Site (Overton Road) and a very regular occurence was the passing of flat bed trucks with their loads on the way to the engine bay in Woodhall Spa. We used to cycle there to go swimming, four miles there and four back. These days many people would consider that too far to even drive. Anyone remember the 'Kinema in the Woods'. I remember the great excitement when the file Battle of Britain came out and we all made our way there to see it.

Visiting the flight sim (Snoopy and The Red Baron, IIRC) we were fascinated to see the large relief model of the countryside around Coningsby, including Tattershall Castle, with the cine camera that moved over it on a rig above the model, so quaint when you think of the CGY flight sims these days but probably state of the art for that time.

I'd lie in bed at night and watch the night flying take offs and landings. The noise on take off was so loud that the windows shook, but it was fantastic all the same. School hols were spent at the 'crash gates' taking serials. The best feelings of all were on a cold day when the smell and heat of warm parrafin wafted over us a few seconds after the planes had passed. Best of all though, was if the crew had given us a cheery wave as they passed.

It wasn't uncommon to see four and even eight ships taking off, four at a time. I even remember real big occasions when we saw 16 aircraft go off, four at a time. These were days when you could see at any time and in no particular order, Phantoms, Jet Provosts, Jaguars, Harriers, Vulcans, Hercules, Andovers, F104 Starfighters (various nationalities), A10s, F111s (have I missed any?), but the airfield was closed enough on Sundays for us to fly our aero model gliders and planes.

Accidents seemed to be much more frequent in those days and I seem to remember the Station CO, Gp Capt B***e, and his rear seater coming to grief in collision with a crop dusting aircraft not far from the airfield.

On the ground a kid arrived in my class at Coningsby Junior school one day. He spoke with a weird accent and talked about living in "duplex" houses. After school that day his Dad met him at the gates looking like nobody we'd ever seen. An American exchange pilot, he wore a chip poke hat (with a real crew cut, which you never saw in Britain in those days), a very trim olive green flying suit, great long laced up boots that his flying suit tucked into, but his badges were the coollest. It's a long time ago now, but I think I remember Vietnam patches "50 missions over Vietnam"; "100 missions over Vietnam"; and I think "150 missions over Vietnam".

This set me thinking. At the height of the war, as this was, it's surely inconceivable that the Air Force didn't take the chance to do exchanges in the opposite direction with a view to RAF crew flying live combat missions in the Vietnam War. Can anyone comment?

Years later, married with children I was reminiscing with the family of what we did during school hols in Coningsby. Bearing in mind the village names around Coningsby, I told them I had a school friend who lived in New York and I used to cycle there to see him during the holidays. Somehow it sounded stranger when I said it than it was in real life!

[gibbo568]

The Aux Air Doors, upper and lower, were open at lower speeds, and were used in conjunction with an annular ring type valve which surrounded the intake duct, just in front of the engine. They closed automatically at, if I remember correctly, 240 kts. I seem to remember that the flaps would retract automatically at this speed too, if they had been forgotten by the pilot! But it is a long time ago, I left 43 in Nov '84!

[kluge]

Nearest I ever came to being really close to one, aside from "At Home Days" behind a fence, was last year at the Palm Springs Museum in Ca. Think it was an F4D. Static a/c minus engines in the pound getting ready for a refurb.

I discovered the port side retractable ladder. Of course I had to climb up and have a look inside. And of course the Missus had to have a look too. Got some ear ache when her pants got dirty but it was worth it. Wonderful to walk around it and "feel" it. The a/c has so much presence.

Was the same ladder present on the F4K/F4M ?

I can highly recommend that museum if enyone is over there. A very nice TBM is also on display in FAA markings.

[Zoom]

Yes to the ladder question.

Regarding multi-ship take-offs, in my early days on the F-4 we used to do 3-ship 'Vic' take-offs. I was one of a flight to spend a few days at Spangdahlem with a USAF F-4D outfit on a radar bombing contest (which we won!) and the Yanks hadn't been allowed to do Vic take-offs for years, if ever. When I found this out one evening I proudly announced that we would do one or more the next day for their benefit. First message we got that morning from RAFG was that Vic take-offs had been outlawed because - we understood - some barely-current wingco had just made a pig's ear of one, nearly clobbering the leader in the process, and had blamed the aircraft rather than his own ineptitude. So that was the end of that particular era. As it happens, a Vic was no more difficult that a standard pairs take-off and even more impressive.

[soddim]

Only problem with the Vic take-off could occur in crosswinds if the downwind wingman dropped back during the roll. Getting into the leader's slipstream at lift-off was enough to soil the pants and get the Nav into a real huffy fit! Best leave that one for the dead sparrows.

[XV490]

They wouldn't allow it today :( but one of the most impressive F4 displays was a mock attack at dusk on the arena during the Colchester Searchlight Tattoo in August 1988.

At the stroke of 2115, with a land 'battle' raging in the floodlit arena, two 74 Sqn Phantoms flew low across the town from the north, 'attacked' the arena flashing their navigation lights and then stood on their tails, afterburners lit, and disappeared. I hope the crews enjoyed it as much as we did on the ground.

I recall were a number of complaints from local mums who'd been trying to get their kids off to sleep. Diddums.

What a spectacle, unequalled methinks in any other UK town. I've been trying to track down the official Tattoo video ever since. Any ideas?

[kluge]

Could similar be from where the comment "bomb the lot and let God sort 'em out" comes from ?

Once heard from a ex F4 jock cousin.

Impressive display, notwithstanding.

[Turnberry]

IAT at Bournemouth - late 1980's.

Monday lunchtime all aircraft have departed apart from single F4 parked northside in the static park. Pilot hasn't seen his Nav since Saturday evening:). Nav eventually rolls up and F4 taxies for departure.

Unrestricted climb coordinated by us in ATC and aircraft requests single circuit before departing. Aircraft disappears into the gloom as it commences a low level circuit to the north. It appears less than a minute later on the centreline for 26 at Hurn at very high speed. Best beat up I have ever seen - and I had seen a fair few. All vortices and moisture effect in the damp air. Pulls up into the overcast and climbs as vertically as a Phantom can climb. Even remember the callsign -4OM33.

[Torchy]

Oh dear! Just when you thought it was safe your memory banks are fired up again by a post! Wildenrath 1978 ish.....I remember one evening in winter It was just about dark and we had an F4 returning from Deci. We were on the westerly runway. The aircraft was just about down when the reheat came on and it did a very slow overshoot. The pilot had taken the steel hawser that was the upper cable of the barrier across both his main wheels and actually pulled out one of the stanchions. The reheat set fire to the vertical strips as he climbed slowly towards the flats on the Wassenberg road. We thought he was going straight for the Heinsberg ejecting area but he called for an undercarriage inspection and turned downwind. As he came by the tower nice and slow and low we lit the FGIs for a better look. I remember seeing the aircraft coming up the taxiway past 60 Sqn hangar with one of the steel hawser ends whipping along the taxiway creating a load of sparks and a met man running out of the met office towards the taxiway for a better look. He obviously decided, quite late, the he didn't want to be decapitated and and ran back to the relative safety of the Ops building. As the aircraft came by the tower we got a good look at the mess around the wheels and informed the pilot of the situation. Give him his due - he seemed pretty sanguine about it and went off towards the east - we thought to eject. Not so - he dumb-belled back and took the downwind cable! A good end. There was some discussion for a few weeks after the event that they had considered jumping over the side but the nav was festooned with train sets from Deci and couldn't do it. Pure speculation I suppose. At the subsequent Inquiry blame was initially laid completely on the controller for raising the approach barrier into the standby position. However, the pilot did not see any red light showing into the approach that would identify the barrier was up. He was adamant that the barrier was down and was indicating down in the tower. Anyway, to cut a long story short the finding was reviewed because the was a spate at the time of several incidents notified with barriers self raising into the standby position. Anyway, just another F4 musing.............

[Dr Jekyll]

At the height of the war, as this was, it's surely inconceivable that the Air Force didn't take the chance to do exchanges in the opposite direction with a view to RAF crew flying live combat missions in the Vietnam War. Can anyone comment?

There were a few RAF crew doing exchanges with the US, but they certainly were not allowed into Vietnam. Even transport crews were only allowed partway across the Pacific.

[Geehovah]

Oh dear! Just when you thought it was safe your memory banks are fired up again by a post! Wildenrath 1978 ish.....I remember one evening in winter It was just about dark and we had an F4 returning from Deci. We were on the westerly runway. The aircraft was just about down when the reheat came on and it did a very slow overshoot. The pilot had taken the steel hawser that was the upper cable of the barrier across both his main wheels and actually pulled out one of the stanchions. The reheat set fire to the vertical strips as he climbed slowly towards the flats on the Wassenberg road. We thought he was going straight for the Heinsberg ejecting area but he called for an undercarriage inspection and turned downwind. As he came by the tower nice and slow and low we lit the FGIs for a better look. I remember seeing the aircraft coming up the taxiway past 60 Sqn hangar with one of the steel hawser ends whipping along the taxiway creating a load of sparks and a met man running out of the met office towards the taxiway for a better look. He obviously decided, quite late, the he didn't want to be decapitated and and ran back to the relative safety of the Ops building. As the aircraft came by the tower we got a good look at the mess around the wheels and informed the pilot of the situation. Give him his due - he seemed pretty sanguine about it and went off towards the east - we thought to eject. Not so - he dumb-belled back and took the downwind cable! A good end. There was some discussion for a few weeks after the event that they had considered jumping over the side but the nav was festooned with train sets from Deci and couldn't do it. Pure speculation I suppose. At the subsequent Inquiry blame was initially laid completely on the controller for raising the approach barrier into the standby position. However, the pilot did not see any red light showing into the approach that would identify the barrier was up. He was adamant that the barrier was down and was indicating down in the tower. Anyway, to cut a long story short the finding was reviewed because the was a spate at the time of several incidents notified with barriers self raising into the standby position. Anyway, just another F4 musing.............

Interesting to hear but just to put the record straightand not getting into the blame game - it was about 1980. The upper barrier cable lodged over the top of the gun. Luckily most of the ironmongery burned off as the burners went in and most of the concrete fell away. I know because it nearly landed on my moped at the 09 threshold. BTW the jet was on recovery from an Ample Gain and the boxes were merely "cabin baggage".;) I won't name the Nav:)

The sad sequel is that the pilot was Hylton Price who died recenlty in the Grob crash in Wales. A better feat of airmanship we'll never see. RIP Hylton.

[ARINC]

Vividly remember getting shown round the jet for the first time by a grizzly Flm. He told me to get in the back seat whilst he put power on, having dutifully checked what seemed like dozens of seat and canopy pins, I got in. He warned me spcifically not to touch a thing, as a fresh faced JT not wishing to blot his copy book at such an early juncture, I needed no such urging. With the A/C now live he jumped into the front seat, as I glanced infront of me at the Nav kit I was alarmed to see a flashing red light at eye level with the legend EJECT on it.

I hard all sorts of commotion from the front, and not wanting to stay to find out, I got up and out in fairly short order. Charging down the steps and onto the pan in barely controlled panic.

Gathering my senses I looked round to see 3 other Flm's creased over in laughter at my antics and looking back upto the front seat saw my tour guide laughing like a drain too.

My introduction to the front seat operated EJECT command light for use during loss of comms ! It had of course no other use than to let the back seater know he would be on his own in a second or too.

Then there was the time they trapped me behind the radar.....ahh fun times

[alwayslookingup]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JX1WAQEKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0891415998/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link)

Phantom over Vietnam - John Trotti
In my opinion easily the best memoir of flying the 'toom. if you're sorting out your hliday reading I can't recommend this book enough.

[Semaphore Sam]

YouTube - Cam Ranh Bay: What the Captain Means (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ1AYVcAS7k)

[Pontius]

Great aircraft! Nice big wing, huge target cockpit and the lumbering inability to out-turn a fallen tree; all excellent features to get some REALLY good guns tracking video :ok:

[pr00ne]

Semaphore Sam,

Thank you SO much for digging that out! Took me back a long way. It was a rather popular ditty in it's day but was not so easy to play back in the day when reel to reel tape decks and 16mm movies were the cutting edge.

[AR1]

Lovely stuff. - Mount Kent, late august '86

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee114/AR_1_b/Phantom.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee114/AR_1_b/Phantom.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

[soddim]

Not me - check my logbook CAS.

[MadsDad]

Regarding the shape of the Phantoms wings, with the 'bend' at the wing tip. Years ago I worked in St. Louis and had a mate who worked for McD. who told me a tale he had been told by one of the old engineers as to how it had come about.

The story was they were doing some wind tunnel tests on the aircraft and while they were carrying the model they were using into the wind-tunnel it got dropped and the wing tip got bent. After some discussion they decided that this shouldn't affect the tests they were doing (which were on the nose area, forward of the damage) so they would carry on with the tests. When the tunnel was switched on though they found the model 'flew' asymetrically, with more lift on the bent wing. Further experimentation showed the bent wing was more efficient and the whole aircraft ended up with the final shape.

Always suspected that one should have 'Urban Myth' stamped on it in large letters but, given that there was a lot less in the way of design aids (no computers to speak of for instance) back then it could be true.

[The Helpful Stacker]

AR1 - Of a similar note,

http://www.e-goat.co.uk/photoplog/file.php?n=194&w=o

[forget]

The story was they were doing some wind tunnel tests on the aircraft and while they were carrying the model they were using into the wind-tunnel it got dropped and the wing tip got bent.

Nice one :) - but;

Over the next four months problems popped up and were solved. The new configuration no longer allowed room for a low set horizontal stabilizer so it was raised and given 23 degrees of anhedral. Providing stability while still avoiding the hot jet efflux. In a similar way wind tunnel tests showed that there was not enough dihedral in the wings. With the centre section a single 27 foot span, immensely strong, the solution was to re-engineer the outboard panels to have 12 degrees dihedral for an average of 5 degrees across the span. It was a common sense approach and gave the Phantom its characteristic bent wing appearance.

The Fabulous Phantom. Wings 83.

[Zoom]

Thanks Semaphore. Haven't heard that for decades. And the recording quality is exactly the same as when I first heard it.

[NYF]

QUOTE:
"There were a few RAF crew doing exchanges with the US, but they certainly were not allowed into Vietnam. Even transport crews were only allowed partway across the Pacific."

One RN crew - on exchange with VF-121 at Miramar - certainly delivered a USMC Phantom to Vietnam in the late sixties. They opened the refuelling probe when they arrived in Da Nang to reveal a Union Jack they'd wrapped round before leaving on the last leg of the journey. Just there for a couple of days. No combat.

[Still Wee Jock]

Real jets - big, noisy, dirty and beautiful, I had the privilege to woosh around the sky in XT866 in April 1981 when my squadron (43 F) were on detachment to Akrotiri. Drop-tankless, slippery as hell, Mach 0.9 at the top of the burner climb. Lots of the groundcrew were lucky enough to get a trip, not many were girls, but this (now getting pretty middle aged I've got to say!) girl did and it was awesome, like belting around with a rocket strapped to your arse. Won't ever forget it.

[Yeoman_dai]

I can comment from no experience beyond basic knoweldge of looks, but what I will say on that note is that it, in my view, was one of the last fighters that looked like a fighter....big, deadly, powerful. More modern aircraft look too clinical, all very clean and kinda powerful, but the f-4 just looks like it wants a fight.

Does that make any sense whatsoever?




TO digress a bit, i've always loved the lines on the A7 Corsairs and A-1 Skyraiders, I think both have a short nosed, stubby but purposeful look that if i were an infantryman i'd appreciate!

[West Coast]

F4 was one of my favorites, but you cant beat the F-8 for looks.

[GlueBall]

If looks can kill, it's the [McDonnell] F4 Phantom. The meanest looking bad dog on the ramp; and it's got all the noise [GE-J79s] to go with it. :ok:

[BSweeper]

The Phantom a good aircraft?

In 1967, it could carry a full rocket/bomb load, have two sorts of AAMs, could detect a MiG 15/17 (its main opponent) head on at low level and at 20 miles and shoot them down before the F4 had even been detected and finally deliver a nuke at pretty long range (for a fighter).

As one instructor (Griggles) said to me, "If you get to the target and its been nuked, what do you do".

Answer - nuke it again!!

It also was the best and meanest looking of the lot. Hunter, beautiful but hornless;Lightning, fast quick handjob but no weapons or fuel; F3, OMG don't even ask.
http://www.pprune.org/F4 at Boscombe

[BEagle]

Westie - F8 as in Bearcat, or F-8 as in Crusader?

Both were great aircraft!

BSweeper - Griggles, what a character he was! No longer of this earth though, I understand?

[SlopJockey]

Matkatsurprised no one mentioned as well as no fire extinguishers it never had a battery either.

You may find that there are a few DFs that spent a large number of hours, swearing and bitching, upside down in the RCP trying to get the battery into the hole, especially on the twin stickers.

IIRC Aux air doors upper and lower were part of the mechanism to bleed air from the intake at lower forward air speeds. Not sure at what speed they closed but the point was they closed at higher speeds to get intake compression.

The Toom looked hard in a no nosense, don't f+++ with me way the same as Steve Collins the boxer.

Was and always will be an awesome beast.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Thinking back now the aux air doors top and bottom were controlled through the pitot-static system, the faster you go the more they close. If you go faster still then the air intake ramps hinged outwards at the centre point to slow the air entering the engine.
At the same time the stab feel probe was busy introducing artificial "feel" into the stabilator system. That is of course unless a bee has nested down the tube, but that's another story. Both the pitot tube and stab feel probe were located on the fin and protected from icing by a ferocious heating system, but again that's another story.
All these recollections are hazy now having long since sliced off the top of my skull, Hannibal Lechter style, on the LOX pot door hanging down in front of the SUU gun:ouch:

[Gainesy]

With some air forces still operating the F-4, it makes me wonder why we got rid of them so early, were they all clapped out?

[gibbo568]

Wee Jock, a sad sight, but this is how Oscar ended up. Thankfully, crew got out, injured, but survived.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/3328848948_8978532638_m.jpg

[FlightTester]

You may find that there are a few DFs that spent a large number of hours, swearing and bitching, upside down in the RCP trying to get the battery into the hole, especially on the twin stickers.


Slopjockey,

Thanks for resurrecting that (I thought) long suppressed nightmare, I think I need to have a little lie down now!

228 OCU - mainly twin stickers. How to do a battery change

1. Remove the rear seat
2. Remove the RH Circuit Breaker Panel (No 2 I think)
3. Remove the relay box behind the CB Panel
4. Carefully remove the locking wire securing the battery clamp (you'll be needing it later)
5. Unscrew the battery clamp and hoses
6. Wind the rudder pedals fully forwards
7. Get a really heavy mate (preferably one who plays rugby) to stand on the right rudder pedal in the front cockpit.
8. Have him hold a hundred pounds or so of force while you wrestle the 30lbs of battery out of it's hidey hole with your fingertips (five minutes).
9. Wrestle battery from the rear cockpit floor to the ground (usually via the intake, spine and down onto the wing, then the LAU)
10. Wrestle new battery up on a recipricol heading
11. Have same mate stand on pedal again (if you can find him)
12. Re-attach battery clamp and hoses
13. Start to lock-wire the battery back in using the piece removed earlier as a gauge as to how long the new piece needs to be. Repeat four or five times until you get it right.
14. Refit the relay panel
15. Refit the CB Panel
16. Refit the rear seat
17. Carry out a functional check of the battery - push in the EJECT light, if it lights battery has volts!
18. Carry out a functional check of all the disturbed systems!!
19. Carry out an essential check of the rear seat.

Total time for a twin stick battery change on a Phantom - about five hours. Total time on a Jag or Tornado - about five minutes.

Despite all that I used to love maintaining the Phantom:)

Next time I'll recount how to change the fatigue meter accelerometer through the simple method of removing the entire spine panel!

[fallmonk]

Just as a wee side note has anyone noticed the currant RAF callander for march has a flight of 4 Phantoms F4's from No 43(F) squadron flying over forth rail/road bridge !

[Springer1]

Aux air doors.

My sq lost one in '78 at Bergstrom AFB, TX. The centerline tank was not leak checked properly after being hung. After takeoff the fuel was sucked into the aux air door and ignited with a 40' flame behind it. The a/c was IMC over downtown Austin but managed to turn away from town and the crew successfully ejected.

They said the scariest part of the ordeal was the helicopter ride back to the base in marginally VFR weather.

[Almost_done]

Does anyone remember the F4 landing at Leuchars attempting to use the Fletcher tanks as undercarriage, circa 1988/9, then lifting again and trying the landing with the U/C down?

Details are hazy now due to too much time spent at Ma Bells in St Andrews.

[Dark Helmet]

Both the pitot tube and stab feel probe were located on the fin and protected from icing by a ferocious heating system, but again that's another story.
All these recollections are hazy now having long since sliced off the top of my skull, Hannibal Lechter style, on the LOX pot door hanging down in front of the SUU gun

Ha ha ha, you have just brought back some very (un)pleasant memories!
I remember walking down the spine during a crew-in snag with both engines running to try and sort out a drag 'chute door problem (can't think why now!). When I got to the very tricky transition from the narrowing slippery spine to alongside the fin I grabbed hold of one of the probes to steady myself. Bl**dy Hell they were hotter than a hot thing with an electrified hot thing! I left a good chunk of my skin behind! And, no, I didn't fall off either!

I also remember seeing someone with a marshalling bat trying to 'unstick' the hook lock during a see-off (a hook functional was part of the see-off procedure). The right hand engine was still going and he tried to take a swing at it from the left engine jet pipe area. He missed, spun into the jet blast of the right engine and was sent flying down the pan! Eventually the long lead of his headset reached its limit and was yanked off. I think the only reason the crew knew that things hadn't gone to plan was when they heard 'Awkkk!' from their Man A! Needless to say Man B was laughing to much to help. Oh, and just for those who never worked on the Phantom, the correct method for 'unsticking' a hook lock with an engine running was with a broom!

Happy, but sometimes painful, days!

[HaveQuick2]

Yes, hook indicator snag with engines running, what a memory!

Shut down lh engine during see-off so rigger can have a look, close inspection revelas nothing. So he takes a quick shufty round the right hand side of the hook, straight into the blast from the rh engine. End result, one rigger sprawling and cartwheeling into the HAS chimneys, with an ever helpful see-off crew besides themselves on the HAS floor.

You won't do that again Duncan!

[althenick]

Gents

Found this on Rum Ration.. (To the tune of Ernie - The fastest milk cart in the west - U tube it if you're too young to remember)

Pertinent to Royal Naval Aviation and not any of you RAF Land-Lubber types*

(*Stand fast the Tame Crabs)

ERNIE (HE FLEW THE SLOWEST PHANTOM IN THE WEST)

You could hear the tyres a bursting as he careered across the deck
You could hear the goofers laughing as he stumbled from the wreck
He flew into the circuit with his wings upon his chest
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRRNNNMEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

Now Ernie loved a Wren a lovely lass named Sue
She worked down the road at Lilstock Range, she was only twenty two
They said she was too good for him, she was haughty, pride and chic
But Ernie took his missiles there, three times every week
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRRNNNIIEEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

She said she'd like to have a flight, he said right oh sweetheart
And she gazed at him in wonder as he raised his undercart
Would you like it straight and level, or at aeros have a crack
She said "Ernie I'd be happy if you rolls me on me back
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRRNNNHEEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

But Ernie had a rival, an evil looking swine
He was swarthy from down the road, the boss of 809
When he threw it over the shoulder, she knew a longing dread
She was at a loss with his medium toss, and she nearly lost her head
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEERRRRNNNMEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

Now Ernie would not stand for this 'Enoughs enough" he said
And in the bar that evening he cornered poor old Fred
You've poked around her quadrant hut, and had your evil fun
We'll fight for her tomorrow man to man in one v one
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRRNNNIIEEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

They took off the next afternoon, just after half past four
Full twenty minutes they battled on, and still there was no score
Then Fred pulled even tighter, he gave it his all
And Ernie shoved in rudder, and stoofed in off a stall
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRRNNNIIEEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

Ernie did not want to die, he was only twenty eight
But now he's gone for ever, flying circles in the wait
Yet is he in a better place, in that airy fairy land
Where the flying programme always works, and Commander (Airs) are banned
His name was Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRMNNIMEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

For a woman's needs are many fold, and Sue she married
Ted And strange things happened on their wedding night
As they lay in their bed Is that the wind a whistling through the leaves and the dry rot
Or Ernie’s ghostly Phantom returning to the slot
They won't forget old Ernie, EEEEEEEEERRRNNNMEEEEE,
and he flew the slowest Phantom in the west

[The Helpful Stacker]

Many years back when I was a young spacey on annual camp at Coltishall we were lucky enough to be offered not one but two backseat flights, one at Colt in a Jag and the other at Wattisham in a Phantom. As 'top cadet' of the camp (being good at marching about and other such stuff) I was offered the choice, with the other slot going to the second placed cadet. I chose the Jag (not wanting to miss footie in the evening was I believe the decider) and although I really enjoyed the Jag flight (as proved by the slightly full sick bag) I always wonder (and this is in no way meant in an ungrateful manner) if I chose wisely.

[meadowbank]

Does anyone remember the F4 landing at Leuchars attempting to use the Fletcher tanks as undercarriage, circa 1988/9, then lifting again and trying the landing with the U/C down?

It was an OCU jet with Staff pilot and student nav, landing on Easterly runway. Pilot forgot to lower landing gear. Caravan controller 'froze' between making radio call and firing red flare (did neither!), ATC Tower controller shouted "Go around" (or similar) and pilot selected full power. Phantom touched down on underwing tanks then got airborne again with sparks/flames pouring from tanks/engine burner cans. Pilot landed into approach-end cable on short SW'ly runway. Pilot got sent on exchange to fly F-15s in US and is now flying as Captain for well-known UK airline. :ooh:
Aircraft repaired and flew again several weeks later.

[Grego123]

In wikipedia i have seen things you people would not belive...
no. just a joke on blade runner.

In wikipedia i have seen an AIM-7F Sparrow (range 70 km) on an F-4G Phantom

Does somebody know if the F-4E Phantom can be armed with AIM-7F Sparrows?
As far as I know the F-4E can only be armed with AIM-7E Sparrow (range 30 km)

[Tashengurt]

Does anyone remember the F4 landing at Leuchars attempting to use the Fletcher tanks as undercarriage, circa 1988/9, then lifting again and trying the landing with the U/C down?

Yup, I also remember being sent to Kinshaldy beach to try to recover the decidedly shredded brake 'chute too!

[innuendo]

The F-4 Phantom? A triumph of thrust over aerodynamics!

McDonnell learned all they knew about that from producing the F101B. :E

[Bevo]

Does somebody know if the F-4E Phantom can be armed with AIM-7F Sparrows?Yes the F-4E carried the AIM-7F as could the Navy F-4J/S, and in fact the Israelis used it from F-4Es to down at least two MiG-21s. http://www.acig.org (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_270.shtml)

Of course the German F-4F can the AIM-7F/M and on the ICE versions can carry the AIM-120.

[BBadanov]

Does anyone remember the F4 landing at Leuchars attempting to use the Fletcher tanks as undercarriage, circa 1988/9, then lifting again and trying the landing with the U/C down?

Also happened in Oz, at Amberley in 1972.
F-4E was doing touch-and-go, scaffold around tower so ATC couldn't see wheels not down, scraped on the tanks (fortunately) as burner in and airborne. Next was a full-stop with three greens!! No damage to airframe, only the tanks.

[Four Types]

In answer to the question "Who painted the Tigers onto the 74(F) Sqn guys helmets"? The one who did mine was a chap in flying clothing, cost me £10. I deliberately left having it done until about 2 weeks to posting. Once done I carried the helmet gingerly to and from each sortie. I kept the helmet (they didn't fit anyone else as they were individualy moulded to your head) and it sits on the bookcase in my office at an RAF base somewhere in Lincoln as a reminder of the great times I had on 74(F) Sqn - Once a Tiger - ALWAYS a Tiger!!:)

[tarantonight]

My Old Man was one of the RN VF-121 exchange boys (not involved in the delivery of the USMC Phantom to my knowledge).

Always told me that UK aircrew were forbidden to become involved in Ops. Training the US aircrew was one thing, to deploy was another.

TN.

[Geehovah]

Brit aircrew on exchange, and indeed personnel on ground appointments, were allowed to deploy and many did. It was always subject to approval from BDS Washington.

[ex-fast-jets]

I was on exchange with the USN 78/81. I used to visit McDonnell Douglas in St Louis every 6-8 weeks to work on AV-8B/F-18 cockpit systems integration.

The F-4 production line was reaching it's end and the McD engineers used to take great delight in showing us Greek and Turkish F-4's, next to each other on the production line. In fact, they used to say that every morning they had to adjust the aircraft back into line, as overnight they had started to point towards each other!

Either way, McD would win, no matter who won!!

Great business position.

Great aircraft - great company!

Sadly no longer an independent company, and a terrific warfighting aircraft is now assigned to history. Along with many others.

Never flew it myself, but would have loved to.

It looked aggressive and right!

[Bevo]

I was on exchange with the USN 78/81.This wasn't VX-4 perchance?

[ex-fast-jets]

No - VX-5 at China Lake

[Bevo]

OK - I was at VX-4 from Sept. 82 until Feb. 85. I was a USAF exchange pilot and Dave Braithwaite was there for about my first two months. Clive Morrell was there for the rest of my tour.

[Jane-DoH]

Pontius Navigator

Fast, rugged, good radar, huge load carrier.

It's performance compared pretty well to the F-106 actually. The F-106A was undoubtedly more elegant and beautiful in appearance (and slightly faster at top-end speed), but the F-4B had a greater intercept radius (750 nm vs 650 nm), a faster climb-rate (AFAIK).

The F-4B's radar boasted 25% greater range than the F-106A and was more reliable; it's two man crew reduced workload and didn't require a lot of the automation the F-102A and F-106A did.

I don't know how the F-4E's radar compared to the F-4B's, whether it was inferior, the same, superior, etc, but they were still used as interceptors by NORAD and ANG units, and I think it had an even greater intercept radius than the F-4B/C (786 nm vs ~ 750 nm).

In RAF service it could carry 9x1000lbs or bombs and the SUU.

Well, technically the plane was physically capable of carrying up to 22,500 pounds of payload; operationally, it was restricted to around 16,700. I don't know if an F-4 ever carried 16,000 pounds of bombs, but if the RAF was carrying 9,000 pounds of bombs, 2 x 450 gallon tanks and an SUU, you would probably be right up on the limit.


brickhistory

I always felt that the F-4 required more pure airmanship – the skills needed to fly the jet smoothly – than does the F-16 where the computer does a lot of the work for you.

Yeah, the F-4 had a number of ugly characteristics. Substantial adverse yaw due to it's ailerons (which for some reason only deflected down) combined with reduced rudder effectiveness under high g-loads was one problem, I think it had bad stall characteristics too (I'm not sure, but I remember something mentioned about a post-stall gyration).

The forward viz in the F-4 was never great. With the [gun]sight, canopy framing and the ‘Rhino’s’ long nose, it was nearly impossible to see ahead.

Actually, that might have been the reason the USN never developed an F-4 variant with a gun. Over the nose visibility is particularly important for carrier operations.


gibbo568

I seem to remember that the flaps would retract automatically at this speed too, if they had been forgotten by the pilot!

You sure you're not mixing the F-4 up with the F-15? They had a "blow-up" feature whereby the flaps would retract as the plane accelerated.

[SASless]

Did an F-4 ever do this?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/f8_wingsfolded.jpg

[jamesdevice]

the story about that picture is here Night Infamy and Folded Wings (http://mofak.com/Night_Infamy.htm)



this thread has an image of a Phantom flying with folded wings, but no idea if its genuine
Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - F-4 flying with wings folded??? (http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5406&start=0)

[Bevo]

Jane-DoH
I don't know how the F-4E's radar compared to the F-4B's, whether it was inferior, the same, superior, etc, but they were still used as interceptors by NORAD and ANG units, and I think it had an even greater intercept radius than the F-4B/C (786 nm vs ~ 750 nm).
On F-4E/G models, the digital ARN-101 navigation system replaced the LN-12 inertial navigation system. The F-4E was equipped with the APQ-120 which offered considerable improvements in weight (290 kg), volume, performance and reliability through the use of solid-state circuitry. It is also designed to operate reliably in close proximity to the nose-gun installation of the F-4E. The F-4E also was equipped with the AIM-7F missile. The Northrop "Target Identification System Electro-Optical (TISEO)" camera system was also introduced in late F-4E production, being retrofitted to older aircraft as well. TISEO involved a steerable, stabilized telescopic camera mounted on the left wing, and was used primarily to inspect targets before engaging them. TISEO imagery was displayed on the WSO's radarscope. The camera could be slaved to the AN/APQ-120 radar, and linked to the navigation system to target flight checkpoints as well.

Navy F-4J/S were equipped with The AWG-10 and AWG10B using the AN/APG-59 radar. This was the first multi-mode radar set that included pulse-Doppler look-down capability as well as a comprehensive built-in-test (BIT) system.


You sure you're not mixing the F-4 up with the F-15? They had a "blow-up" feature whereby the flaps would retract as the plane accelerated.

Both aircraft had an auto-retract flap system. On the F-15C flaps automatically retracted at 250 kts. On the F-4D the flaps automatically retracted at 220 kts. +/- 10 kts. Some of us actually used this feature on the F-4 during air-to-air as using ½ flaps provided some additional slow speed capability. I always had the guy in back call out airspeeds with the flaps down, and I would start them up before 220 kts. as going downhill you could still over speed the flaps as they may not retract fast enough.

[Jane-DoH]

Bevo

On F-4E/G models, the digital ARN-101 navigation system replaced the LN-12 inertial navigation system. The F-4E was equipped with the APQ-120 which offered considerable improvements in weight (290 kg), volume, performance and reliability through the use of solid-state circuitry.

So it actually despite being smaller and lighter actually did have superior range and tracking ability?

The F-4E also was equipped with the AIM-7F missile. The Northrop "Target Identification System Electro-Optical (TISEO)" camera system was also introduced in late F-4E production, being retrofitted to older aircraft as well. TISEO involved a steerable, stabilized telescopic camera mounted on the left wing, and was used primarily to inspect targets before engaging them. TISEO imagery was displayed on the WSO's radarscope. The camera could be slaved to the AN/APQ-120 radar, and linked to the navigation system to target flight checkpoints as well.

So it effectively allowed one to identify enemy aircraft further out making for more BVR engagements?

Navy F-4J/S were equipped with The AWG-10 and AWG10B using the AN/APG-59 radar.

The AWG-10 was the fire-control system and the AN/APG-59 was the radar?

This was the first multi-mode radar set that included pulse-Doppler look-down capability as well as a comprehensive built-in-test (BIT) system.

Assuming it's not classified: When you say multi-mode radar, do you mean it possessed both air-to-air and air-to-ground capability?

I assume it performed better than either the F-4C's radar, or the AN/APQ-120?

As for the BIT capability, it could do auto-diagnostics on itself then?

Both aircraft had an auto-retract flap system. On the F-15C flaps automatically retracted at 250 kts. On the F-4D the flaps automatically retracted at 220 kts. +/- 10 kts. Some of us actually used this feature on the F-4 during air-to-air as using ½ flaps provided some additional slow speed capability.

You learn something new every day...

[A2QFI]

The RAF's F4s had folding wing outer sections but with the hydraulics removed. The panels were thus raised and lowered, and the locking pins engaged, manually. One aircraft at Bruggen was prepared for flight and the wings lowered but NOT locked and on take-off the crew had to abandon it. There was a tell-tale indicator pin on the wing but it wasn't that obvious

[BBadanov]

Bruggen episode - nav was Tobin?

[meadowbank]

Re Nav with folding wings, I believe it was Kevin Toal.

[meadowbank]

I’d throw my helmet bag with snacks and water and other junk in the space to the sides of the ejection seat.

snacks and water! - typical American - can't last an hour without eating something

[matkat]

Was the Bruggen Nav. not Inverarrity?
AQ I think the folding wing episode was at Wattisham.

[DeskBoundPhlasher]

MATKAT,

Sorry - you are mistaken. The Folding wings episode was at Bruggen (31 Sqn - XV 431 and the remains ended up in 431 MU) - this is well documented in various reports and books

Kev Toal was the Nav and Ray Pilley(Spell?) was the driver-airframe. The re-enactment (less the crash!) was done at Coningsby for the film crew (at the same time as the re-enactment filming of the F4 QRA incident at a very northen unit - RAF fire engines making the (very cold) rain was a sight to see!

As a pedantic point - some RAF F4,s in the 70's and 80's and pre F4J days still had hyd wing spread/fold - controlled by a switch in the left main wheel bay

[johnfairr]

AI was the unfortunate nav in the F4/Jag incident in RAFG, the driver being RL.

[matkat]

Thanks DPB I spoke to an ex F4 tech sitting over the desk from me and we both thought it was Wattisham to many years and beers, was certain it was AI in the Jag/Tomb incident though as had regular meetings with Him when he left RAFG and returned to Leuchars, anyone know if he is still around?

Google is your friend.

A 92 Squadron F-4M XV422 flown by Roy Lawrence with nav Alistair Inverarity shot down Jaguar XX963 of 14 Squadron, flown by Steve Griggs. Griggs ejected twice within a five-month period; the first after being shot down by the F-4 Phantom; the second after a catastrophic engine fire over Northeast Scotland. Last I heard he was OC 41 with an AFC for NVG work.

[gibbo568]

A2QFI,
If I remember correctly, the RAF's F4's were from three routes. The first were F4M's, direct to the RAF, the second were F4K's, originally intended for the RN's second carrier, but diverted to the RAF when that was cancelled.

The third route was from the RN when the Ark Royal was finally decommissioned.

As you say the F4M had a purely manual wing fold, the F4K's were a mix of pilot controlled folding, (the switch was under a large guard situated at the rear of the RH cockpit side panel. When the guard was raised to access the switch, a cable operated the lock), or ground crew controlled, via a switch in the wheel well. On these the lock pin was screwed in manually as on the F4M's. These are probably the ones DBP remembers.

Thankfully I never worked on the F4M, so never had to do a manual wingfold!

Another 'throwback' to the Navy days was the noseleg extension. Controlled from a switch in the MLG bay, the nose leg would extend about 24 inches for carrier take off. AFAIK, there was NO facility to reverse this, the 'shrinking' being part of the retraction sequence. I think this had been removed before I got to 43 in '81.

[Saintsman]

If I remember correctly, the folding wing switch was moved from the cockpit to the wheel well when the RWR mod was incorporated.

[TLB]

McDonnell learned all they knew about that from producing the F101B

Indeed. There is that old saying about Mac Air: "Give me a fuselage of any shape or size; now give me engines that will let it go a thousand miles an hour !"

[PICKS135]

From a book published by Macair

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/f4phixeruk/F4Bwingfolded.jpg

[Safeware]

gibbo,

You're forgetting about the F-4J(UK)

sw

[gibbo568]

You are quite correct Safeware, I did forget about the F4J(UK), I was probably thinking only of 'Anglisised' Phantoms.

[XV410]

gibbo,
As you say the F4M had a purely manual wing fold

I think you'll find some of the F4M had powered wing fold as well, I remember doing the runs for the riggers for the OOP code for the wing fold on 56(F) in the late 80s.

[clarkieboy]

The 74 Js had the powered wingfold, with the switch under the lock handle in the cockpit, if that helps. Ditto the runs.
Cheers.

[howiehowie93]

I think you'll find some of the F4M had powered wing fold as well, I remember doing the runs for the riggers for the OOP code for the wing fold on 56(F) in the late 80s.

Lots of the 228OCU F4M's had powered wing folding too as they were part of the batch of aircraft ordered for the RN originally.
Used to be great fun going along the line to unfold/fold up to 25 jets wings on a Morning/Night. Got to do some cheeky little ground runs too all a Big Billy Bonus for a Sootie Liney :ok:

We also went around painting the Lock Indicator pin Dayglo Orange too after the Germany incident.

Happy days !

H

[claron]

I seem to remember in the early 80's on the line on 56(F), that all the F4M's up to XV 417 had hydraulic wing fold, a switch in the L/H undercarridge bay, and a speed brace was all that was required. XV407 definitely did, as I had to make use of it at greenham common 1981 for the airshow to get the aircraft into the static line up, a little tight to say the least.

[Lightning Mate]

the last fighter in the RAF with real character

Some of us might disagree......

[andyy]

By Matkat:

"A 92 Squadron F-4M XV422 flown by Roy Lawrence with nav Alistair Inverarity shot down Jaguar XX963 of 14 Squadron, flown by Steve Griggs. Griggs ejected twice within a five-month period; the first after being shot down by the F-4 Phantom; the second after a catastrophic engine fire over Northeast Scotland. Last I heard he was OC 41 with an AFC for NVG work".

Last heard Steve Griggs was flying for one of the low cost airlines & doing consultancy work for Babcock, but that is about 7 years ago.

[gibbo568]

Well you live and learn!
I never worked on F4M's, I was relying on the training given at Conningsby on the Airframe course.

[spook]

I can't believe I've still got these - FLM Training notes! Claron is spot on.
http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo311/spook228/F4WingFold_Page_1.jpg
http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo311/spook228/F4WingFold_Page_2.jpg

[wub]

I remember reading a report on the F4Js being readied for RAF service after some time in the desert 'boneyard'. It was recorded that when a panel was opened "a petrified lizard" fell out. The Senior Engineering Officer commented that "these aircraft had previously been operated by the US Navy on carrier-borne operations, it is therefore no surprise that the lizard was petrified"

[ivor toolbox]

Couple of piccies to bring back some memories...Phantom overhauls at a place in South Wales; bottom 2 pics are 1981; top ones @ 1989;
I got poster there twice... ho hum..

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/motormouse/phantom_3.jpg

Think IIRC that 'Pontius Navigator' is in the back seat here; he will know whom is doing the driving... and unlike some other forums suggest it is not a certain Mr Hanna Jr.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/motormouse/low5.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/motormouse/4_shed_BIG.jpg

ttfn

[MiG21SM]

'wiggy':
http://www.pprune.org/4747349-post14.html
My lasting memories:
The beast had a very, very impressive envelope at lowish level ( 750 KIAS clean at Sea Level AFAIR)
Vietnam, May 10 1972:

" Nearly out of missiles and starting to run short of fuel, the Phantoms went supersonic and sped toward the coast.
"At that time we had strong intelligence that the MiG-21 could not do more than Mach 1.05 below five thousand feet. We were doing Mach 1.15 in combat spread, feeling cocksure as we headed towards the coast."
Dosé recalled:
"Then a MiG-21 came up behind, overtaking fast. He made it look effortless. When I saw the MiG it was about three-quaters of a mile behind Hawkins. I called for an in-place turn, and as we began turning the MiG fired an Atoll missile at Hawkins. Initially it guided, but it couldn't handle the Gs and it wasn't ever a real threat."
After attacking the MiG broke away to the right. Instintictively Dosé turned after it, until McDevitt demanded incredulously, "What are you doing!" The back-seater's tone reminded Dosé that they had neither the missiles nor the fuel for another engagement. Chastened, the pilot reversed his turn and headed for the coast.
Almost certainly the MiG-21 that had caught up with the Phantoms was the new MF sub-type. It was the first time American crews had encountered this version, and its much improved low-altitude performance came as an unpleasant surprise.

As the survivors of Oyster Flight sped out of North Vietnam at low altitude, a MiG-21MF arrived to cause consternation for the second time that day. Oyster 2 ran out alone, 3 and 4 stayed together. Chuck DeBellevue, in Oyster 3, watched with disbelief as the Soviet-made fighter closing from behind seemed to join formation on the pair. "We were running out at seven hundred to seven hundred fifty knots(Mach 1.06 to 1.13), the F-4 wouldn"t go any faster that low. And we had a MiG-21 chasing us and keeping up-that surprised the hell out of us!" To DeBellevue, the MiG's ability to keep up was disconcerting, to Captain Larry Pettit in Oyster 4 it was terrifying: "He was at our eight-thirty position(left quarter), one hundred feet above and about three hundred feet out to the side. He caught up with us and was staying with us! I don't know if he saw us, but he had a gun and he could have strafed the s.it out of us." Larry Pettit's next move did nothing to lessen the danger but was understandable in the circumstances: "I lowered my seat to the floor, to hide from him! He banked towards us and I thought, Oh no, he's going to let us have it with cannon....But he turned and went off in the opposite direction, Tommy Feezel and I thanked our lucky stars and got the hell out of there."

Do you remember for the old intell-reports(RAF) in the early '70s? The new performance-data(MiG-21SM,SMT,bis)? Any 'warnings' then?