A319 Pilots Please read !!!

[boredaccountant]

Dear All,

I have just transferred from the A321/A320 onto the A319 and I cannot seem to get a good consistant landing technique.

I never had any problems greasing the 321 down, but this A319 is getting me down.

I started off flaring too high, then flew it into the ground, then closing thrust levers too high.... just cant seem to get a good consistent technique for a smooth gentle landing in the right place.

Can someone give me a few tips please ! This is driving me crazy !

[DC-ATE]

Oh.....you're gonna love this:

Transfer to the DC-8!:8

[AIRMEX1]

Let me tell you, that you are not alone on this sitation, I`b been flying Airbus for 8 years and is very diferent A320/21 tha A318/19.
There are 2 ways you que deal with this.
1.- Don`t set the trusth levers to idle until te landing gear is at ground.
2.- Increase Vapp 10 Knts and aprox. 40/50 retard the trust levers, make the flare and wait until the plane lands.
I personally prefer the second option, the only consecuence is that increase a little the landig distance but if you do it as I told you, you'll get grate landings about 80% of the time; I rather to land the aircraft "flying".
I dont`know what type of engines do you have in your airline, but I think
this situation is due to the "idle" of the engines CFM is grater than the IAE.
I`m an airbus instructor and let me tell you this is the easy way to show how to land new pilots on this type of aircfraft.
Good luck and !Happy Landings¡

[sika hulmuta]

I disagree with Airmex1 when he says:
1.- Don`t set the trusth levers to idle until te landing gear is at ground.
2.- Increase Vapp 10 Knts and aprox. 40/50 retard the trust levers, make the flare and wait until the plane lands.


Note the A319 has the same wing as the A320/321, and as such is "overwinged". Even 3 kts increase of Vapp will see you float significantly. Sure, you may touch down smoother, but not anywhere near the landing zone!

Assuming a standard 3 deg approach, try:
Flare smoothly at 17ft, simultaneously closing the thrust levers at to be at idle by 5ft.
If you underflare - ouch! Delay reducing thrust - don't pull back excessively as you are just rotating the wheels into the ground (think C of G and where the main wheels are) and flare a bit higher next time!
If you overflare, relax the back pressure and drop the into wind wing.
If you flare correctly (ie you are about 10cm above the ground) relax the back pressure / ease forward very slightly and you won't feel the wheels touch.Be gentle and consistant with your pull - you can feel the aircraft, just like any other despite the fly-by wire. Flare height and constant gentle pull is critical. The above technique isn't Airbus Standard, but I guarantee it works, and you consistantly and smoothly touch down in the correct place!

[John Citizen]

Flare smoothly at 17ft

Why not 16ft or 18ft ?

How the :mad: do you expect me to determine 17ft other than looking at the PFD when I should be looking outside ?

Please advise me how do I determine 17ft with my eyes outside ?

[OPEN DES]

I have had the same problem when transferring from the A320 to A319 about 3 years ago. You will get there eventually.

You should 'fly' the aircraft normally stabilized down to 20 ft, do not ease the descent rate and do not think about flaring or landing before passing 30 ft earliest. At about 20 ft retard the TLs and flare a bit.
If you feel a bit of sink while starting the flare, delay retarding the TLs rather than pitching up more. (said by Sika).
If you have a significant up-slope you can add 5-15 feet to the above mentioned heights. Vice-versa for down-slopes.
All the above assumes a flaps FULL landing.

Few hints for a flaps 3 landing:
-use the autothrust, the aircraft will not be very speed-stable and huge thrust variations may be required
-numbers as per above for flaps FULL
Most important:
do not retard the TLs at 20ft by default. Look at your speed first. Even when just a few knots below Vapp target, it may drop like a brick. Autothrust speed tracking is not brilliant with flaps 3 and I would advise even more to monitor actual speed vs. target speed (i.e. energy state of the AC) before retarding. It might be required to retard only just before the mains hit the ground, especially at very low weights.

Good luck.

[Anp]

No difference in the landing technique, be it the 319/320/321. Commence flare at 20 ft, hold a shallow nose up attitude and she will sit down gently. Trying to rotate continuously will result in eating up the runway. The bird is fairly clean and any extra "check" after flare only delays the touch-down. Retard T/Ls at 20 ft in normal 5 kts or so head winds, earlier for tail winds. No promise of a "kisser" but the touch down will be gentle.

[Tacolegend]

I kept the same technique between the 319/321, thrust levers at idle at the 30 feet call.

[PENKO]

I have not flown other busses, but in the 737-300 a good landing started and ended with a good roundout (at least for me :ok:). The plane would settle down nicely. On the 319 you are not there until you have dealt with the last 2 feet. When I finally realised this, my landings started to improve. So you have to really keep flying in the flare and checking for sink rate untill the very last moment, the plane will do nothing for you, especially at anything below say 55 tons LW.

Now that I've written this down I'm sure I won't get a decent landing out of it for weeks!

[Anp]

Repeating what I mentioned earlier in the thread, the A-319/320/321 are clean birds. In flaps 3 config, they are more so. Therefore, any attempt to keep checking results in the AOA and therefore the lift increasing, resulting in longer float (long touchdowns!!). Holding a shallow nose up attitude results in the lift decaying gradually and the aircraft settling down gently. A high attitude will give a better sense of control but will result in speed decaying and the last part of the touchdown being practically uncontrolled - luckily, you are close to the ground by now and may often get a feel of a smooth landing. BUT, these will not be repetitive. Have had a trainee flare out at 40 ft, holding the shallow attitude and touching down firmly, not hard. Try it out.

Happy Landings!

[TyroPicard]

Good Airbus landings begin at 50' RA - correct glidepath, stable pitch attitude.
Start moving the T/L to Idle at 30' RA - no thrust reduction occurs until the doughnuts reach the existing N1 setting and the big fans carry on making thrust beyond touchdown.
Look about 2/3 of the way along the runway, don't get fixated on the concrete just in front of you.
Flare at 20' and land.

[PantLoad]

TyroPicard.....

You must be reading the Airbus FCOM and FCTM. But, if everyone did this, we would have no discussion. Where would PPrune be?


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

AIRMEX1 - I am surprised that as an Airbus instructor your company permits you to give out such non-standard advice. Your advice is directly contrary to all Airbus landing techniques I have seen, and would result in you losing your instructor status in many companies.

My own opinion is that TyroPicard is exactly right. There is also a good description in the Flight Crew Training Manual (FCTM NO-160 P2) as a starter. Finally, our company (easyJet) publishes a Type Rating guide which gives an excellent description of how to land the Airbus, which I will quote below:

A good landing generally results from a good approach and therefore a pilot must ensure that the aircraft is fully configured at the correct speed and on the final approach path by an absolute minimum of 500ft AGL. The correct landing technique is of major importance. More tail-strikes occur during the landing phase rather than in the take-off phase. The most common reasons for tail-strike during landing are:

• Speed below VAPP before the flare.
• Prolonged hold off for a smooth touchdown
• Too high flare
• Too high sink rate as a result of a destabilised approach
• Bouncing at touchdown

As the aircraft crosses the threshold at approximately 50ft, the pilot must make a conscious effort look towards the far end of the runway and avoid any temptation to fixate on the touchdown zone. This will assist in determining the flare point. At approximately 20-30ft, the pilot
should initiate the flare and simultaneously retard the thrust levers to idle. The aircraft should not be allowed to float and should be flown onto the runway. Due to engagement of landing mode in pitch, it is necessary to make a progressive pull on the sidestick to increase the pitch attitude in the flare. A retard call is made by the aircraft at 20ft as a reminder to retard the thrust levers if they have not already been retarded. After main gear touchdown, the nosewheel should be gently flown onto the runway. At main gear touchdown, the ground spoilers will deploy automatically which may give a slight pitch up. This should be overcome with a sidestick input. In order to avoid a poor landing, a pilot must not destabilise the aircraft in the last two hundred feet of final approach. Every effort should be taken to ensure that the aircraft maintains a steady descent rate towards the runway.

My own experience (more than 5000 hours on type) is that the above description is exactly correct, and if you follow that to the letter you will always have a sound landing. Hope that helps.

[AIRMEX1]

My dear colleague:
Please don`t confuse my words, I just gave a tip for a pilot just transfered to a new aircraft; I`m sure that in six months boredaccountant
is going to laugh of this; He`s not going to need 5000hs
Of course I`m aware of the principles of the fly by wire characteristics (the 2 degrees down for 8 seconds below 30 ft. etc. etc. ) and the technics recomended for airbus for landing; But finally the A319 is a plane and obey laws of aerodinamics; I see a lot of technics for land this aircraft even the airbus technic, but I don`t see any explanation even yours of why this happens.
As I said for me, this is due to the "idle" of the engines CFM is bigger than the engines IAE; ¿what can you do? you have two options, add power or increase your speed, and that apply from the cessna 150 to the Challenger.
I`d like to have the chance to demostrate this to boredaccountant in a simulator, or the plane but unfortunately I can`t.
I can assure you that you can make a soft landing in the marks doing what I say making feel happy all my passengers for whom finally we fly.

[NigelOnDraft]

Did the course on the A319 (IAE)/320 (IAE+CFM) and to be honest, I really do not notice the diff between the 319/320. 321 came along later, and only diff was stated as at heavyweights, you cannot leave the flare so late.

Sometimes get ideas I know how to land it, but actually the book technique works best ;) TLs close @30R, provided speed is correct. Thru 20R look to end of RW and squeeze nose up and hold it. Let it land itself... If you start arguing with who's in charge it will reward with a bump / bounce :{

NoD

[Wingswinger]

To what NSF posted may I add this, a particular bugbear of mine: Don't forget to kick off the drift. Too many pilots new to the 'bus seem to think that it's alright to land with side slip on and let the gear take the strain on touchdown. It isn't and I don't know where they get the idea that it is.

Every landing in which the pilot makes no effort to de-crab adds a little bit to the accumulated fatigue of the airframe. It probably won't affect the current operator directly but it will reduce the life of the aircraft in the long run. Professional pilots really should take pride in looking after the aircraft for which they are responsible.

Anyway, back to the topic: 319 vs 320 landing technique. There is no difference. Don't be tempted to retard the levers late or add knots to the Vapp, it only results in eating up the runway and it will lead to embarrassment at airfields with 2000m or less concrete - especially if there is a downslope in the TDZ as at Aberdeen RW34. Simply stay on speed and if anything, retard the TL slightly early. I do it at 30ft; in the 1 second between 30ft and 20ft the aircraft will not lose any speed and it prevents the slight spool-up which will occur if you flare with the TL either in the CLB detent or still in transit between the CLB detent and the actual N1/EPR. Don't be smooth with the TL either - just smack them to the idle stop. Don't drop the into-wind wing to touchdown on one gear leg; it isn't necessary and it achieves nothing other than an untidy touchdown. I suspect the idea comes from a misunderstanding of the system. Here's the FCOM on partial ground spoiler extension:

Partial extension

The ground spoilers partially extend (10°) when reverse is selected on at least one engine (other engine at idle), and one main landing gear strut is compressed. This partial extension, by decreasing the lift, eases the compression of the second main landing gear strut, and consequently leads to full ground spoiler extension.

Note that you have to have selected reverse on at least one engine for it (partial spoiler extension) to occur. Are you going to do that before you have both main legs on the ground? I think not.


And finally, if you hear the auto call-out "10" you've flared slightly too high. If you don't hear "20" one second after "30" simultaneously flare and clench your bum! Remember the picture and adjust accordingly.

HTH,

WS
TRI/TRE
Nearly 7000hrs/2700 landings on A320 variants, except 318, and both engines

[Dani]

Bigger than the difference in types is the difference in weight and/or wind. Imagine you land a very light A320 - you will have the correct landing technique for an average A319.

Contrary to most believes, a light aircraft has to be idled later than a heavy one. Because of the reduced inertia forces.

The same is valid with strong headwind, idle later and flare slower.

Just continue trying. I'm sure as an experienced A320 pilot you don't do miserable landings. You just miss the greasers. Keep a clear plan in your mind between the approach briefing and 50ft. Your great landings will come back!

Good luck,
Dani

[iqit]

319 feels "cleaner" ,and more responsive on the final stages .
if u add a few knots it does help ....the downside of it is ofcourse that u are left with less runway and the aircraft has enough lift to get u airborn again ,if u r not careful.
why dont u try adjusting your siting position?maybe its as simple as that .

[NigelOnDraft]

And that's b4 your company asks you to use F3 for landings to save the planet / their fuel bill :eek:

Our policy is F3 for 321/320, and FF for 319... I tend to F3 all of them, and this is where the A320 is very different to the other 2 :8

NoD

[John Citizen]

Too many pilots new to the 'bus seem to think that it's alright to land with side slip on and let the gear take the strain on touchdown. It isn't and I don't know where they get the idea that it is.


That is not a wild idea but actually a technique that comes straight from the "Airbus Flight Operations Briefing Notes - Landing Techniques - Crosswind Landings" :eek:

Here are some quotes direct from these notes : (not my own wild ideas)

In the case of a very strong crosswind, the aircraft may be landed with a residual drift / crab angle (maximum 5°) to prevent an excessive bank (maximum 5°). Consequently, combination of the partial decrab and wing down techniques may be required.

With higher crosswind (typically above 15 kt to 20 kt crosswind component), a safe crosswind landing requires:
A crabbed-approach, and
A partial decrab prior to touchdown, using a combination of bank angle and crab angle (achieved by applying cross-controls).
On most Airbus models, this requires touching down with:
Maximum 5 degrees of crab angle, and
Maximum 5 degrees of bank angle.


I am surprised that someone with nearly 7000 hours on Airbuses is not aware of these techniques and that we are actually allowed to touchdown with up to max 5° bank/ 5° crab angle limits.

[Olabade]

Hi,

Never any problems, flying all three variants (319/20/21). I do it the way it was tought in TR course.

At 30ft I start to compensate the nose down trim with a small sidestick input, at 20ft I close the throttles and start the flare. When flaring the attitude of the a/c varies a bit with the weights so it is best to look outside and feel the V/S and altitude of the a/c by visual cues and just fly it all the way down.

If flying very heavy (321) I close throttles earlier around 40 to 50ft due to higher inertia and also start the above mentioned actions about 10ft earlier.

In heavy x-wind I fly it with crab and do the flare and while flaring at 10ft decrab it keeping wings level with sidestick (sometimes even banking against the wind).

Safe landings,

Olabade

[TyroPicard]

PantLoad
You must be reading the Airbus FCOM and FCTM.
I find it helps to know what you have to teach.
NSF
My own opinion is that TyroPicard is exactly right.
Thank you, Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
Wingswinger
Don't forget to kick off the drift.
A particular bugbear of mine is pilots who kick off the drift. I prefer those who smoothly apply rudder to align the aircraft with the runway...

[boredaccountant]

Dear All,

Thankyou so much for all your comments.

Will see how it goes on next few sectors.

Cheers

[PENKO]

I mean, the man is a rated and experienced Airbus pilot, he knows what FCTM says, he knows how to land airplanes. But just about everyone who knows, says that the 319 is more difficult to land than the 320. So I thought he'd appreciate a bit more detail. :)

[Cardinal]

Flare smoothly at 17ft, simultaneously closing the thrust levers at to be at idle by 5ft.
If you underflare - ouch! Delay reducing thrust - don't pull back excessively as you are just rotating the wheels into the ground (think C of G and where the main wheels are) and flare a bit higher next time!
If you overflare, relax the back pressure and drop the into wind wing.
If you flare correctly (ie you are about 10cm above the ground) relax the back pressure / ease forward very slightly and you won't feel the wheels touch.

+1. That's my winning technique as well.

[John Citizen]

Flare smoothly at 17ft


OK, thanks for that advice. It solved all my problems. :ok:

But how the :mad: do I determine 17ft ? :confused:

[Wingswinger]

JC,

Thanks for the reminder of what the FCTM says. In my copy the operative words are "in the case of very strong crosswinds" and "may" which in my view does not indicate that the technique should be applied routinely in light crosswinds which is the point I was making. Just above that it says that "during the flare the rudder should be applied to align the aircraft with the runway heading". Perhaps I should have been more specific.


TP,

Of course, you are right. Just my colourful language. It's just that "smoothly applying the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway" is such a mouthful to get out when one is demonstrating and pattering in the simulator.

[fivegreenlight]

I really think you should ask a training pilot in your airline. If it's a real problem ask for a flight with a trainer to try to sort it out.

I actually think some of the advice you have on this thread is not helpful.
ie add 10 kts .......:eek: try that on a short runway with a slight tailwind and you'll regret it.

[FatFlyer]

The reason some of us forget to remove drift before impact may be 'cause we've just come from a 737 where it is allowed with castoring mainwheels. When the nosewheel lands a few feet off the centre line, it reminds me that i forget to straighten it up.

[ItsAjob]

I dont think there is a secret 'technique' as such.

I think in these days of using the auto thrust people are left out of the loop.
We never learnt to land and airplane just using pitch with somebody else controlling the thrust levers did we?

It upsets the balance.

Leave out the auto thrust and be in full control of all axis, you get a much better feel.

[hedgehog-in-fog]

After several years an A-320/319 I gave up the idea of smooth landings. 30ft idle , pull the stick, wait for the Earth response.
If you use this technick 1.3g landing will not disapoint you, but soft landing will be a nice surprise making you happy.
Vapp+5, idle delay - OK, but you gotta be familiar with the bird behaviour, when it's actually necessary to get down firmly when in x-wind or contaminated RW or snowfall or who knows...