Nimrods for Indian Ocean Piracy Patrol ?

[skibeagle]

Whilst reading Navy News last week about the busy and extensively stretched task of ship anti-piracy patrols in the Indian Ocean, it occurred to me that maybe the RAF could base some Nimrods out of Salalah Oman and help the multi-national force with some airborne patrolling ? This seems like a perfect opportunity for the RAF to show some maritime initiative after the recent RAF/RN Harrier row, and lets face it, the kipper fleet aint exactly run off its feet (or is that flippers) in Kinloss is it ?

I know the decision is made in Whitehall, but maybe someone could at least make the suggestion. A warm beach in Oman must be a nicer option than the Moray Firth in February surely ?

[Biggus]

Do you really think someone won't have already considered the use of Nimrods in this role...?

[monkeytamer]

Ski beagle,
Looking for a rise perhaps?

MT

[Charlie Luncher]

Surely E3s or GR4s could do this they are always volunteering but then it is not an Ex:uhoh::rolleyes::D
Charlie sends
ECBA on

[Pontius Navigator]

Surely E3s or GR4s could do this they are always volunteering but then it is not an Ex:uhoh::rolleyes::D
Charlie sends
ECBA on

Nah! Use the GR7/9 off a flat top. They are already out there, save the trnasit time, prove the need for a CVS, give the boys and gals a bit of R&R :}

[KeepItTidy]

Great idea if you have a spare few Nimrods but in the next 4 weeks time the scrap yard in the moray area is going to be very busy.

The fleet is running down now officially so nice places and sunshine are a thing of the past now.

[Double Zero]

Pontius N,

No need to send a full CVS, just send a few Seajets with their radar & guns & they could operate from most platforms ...hang on...bugger !

So if sending supposedly rare GR7/9's, presumably with rocket pods, there really might be a need for Nimrod or similar ?

What a surprise, the words, 'economies' & 'false' spring to mind, but you would be a lot better placed to judge that than me...

[hulahoop7]

hmmm

Bay class fitted properly for aviation support. ASAC Seaking - 2 Lynx, and 4 of these in the dock...
BBC NEWS | England | Marines show off gunboats (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7846086.stm)

[oxenos]

The Shackleton at Coventry was taxied recently. Perhaps with a little more funding?

[Charlie Luncher]

Is that an IPOD docking station on the console to be used by the other Matelots:eek::ouch::{.
Charlie sends
ECBA still on

[Pontius Navigator]

Serious question for once.

Why do we 'punch above our weight' and have forces over sea, buy carriers, and patrol the oceans of the world? The given answer is we are a trading nation dependent on the sea for trade. We must protect our interests overseas and our SLOC.

But ........

with what? and can we afford it?

It is patently obvious that we either cannot afford the resources or we do not wish to afford the resources. Two CVS and 12 Nimrod are in no way capable of force projection over our SLOC. They may have limited capability in one theatre and be wholly remote from a second.

The defence theory that we will only operate in conjunction with our allies when so many of our allies chose to limit their interventions is clearly flawed.

long past the time when we should have cut our cloth better.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Bay class fitted properly for aviation support.

By that you will mean a quick (my first joke of the day) A&A to provide a hangar for aircraft to be properly maintained? Times be ‘ard and it won’t happen.

[nav attacking]

Pontious

We may have 12 nimrods on paper but we by no means have 12 available for tasking. Remove 4 for major, 4 for second line maintenance (EQ!!) and then take the obligatory 1 for national tasking in the UK, 1 in sunnier climates, 1/2 to keep crews trained up in the UK. You are absolutely right we are punching way above our weight. When will the UK public wake up and smell the coffee and realise that HMG are telling blatant lies about our capabilities.

Yes we may have MRA4 just around the corner but when has a new aircraft ever replaced the old straight away, it will be a good few years before the new is ever as capable as the old. That is assuming we ever manage to operate or fight the aircraft properly with the kit it deserves.

Most of the contributors here are correct, we should be able to provide a front line long range maritime patrol aircraft to help out in the fight against piracy but the truth of the matter is we are as a nation totally overstretched and we cannot cover the basic tasks. The defence budget has been cut to the bone and beyond and we are now unable to protect our interests fully without the use of smoke and mirrors to make it look as though we are able to cope.

Unfortunately, the cynic in me believes that we will only pull out of this decent into the mire when we end up in deep dwang much like the 1940's. History does have a tendency to repeat itself as the Air Power/Force Development Gurus keep telling us. Lets hope there is some sort of economy left that is able to buy some kit when we really need it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nav Attacking, I was not referring to the Mk 2 but alluding to the future. But either way 9 or 12 mk 4 and 2 CVS will never be a one-time reality. realistically, as you say, 6 Nimrod and one CVS and . . .

oh well, why bother :(

[Biggus]

PN

9 MRA4s...

I believe it first started out as 21, but stand ready to be corrected!

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, indeed, bit like lottery balls, the numbers keep changing.

While the Nimrod might be the best ASW aircraft in the world and have the best chance of catching the most elusive submarine, a target rich environment is only good if you have enough hunters to cover the ground.

Chuck in a relatively low-tech role and you need lots of eyes in the sky, eyes we haven't got.

We once 'swept' about 130,000 sq miles of the India Ocean in 4 hours. Two Nimrods then swept the same area in 12 aircraft hours and IDd the only 3 vessels we had found - two were yachts.

We either up the ante or get out of the game.

[Tourist]

PN
"the best ASW aircraft in the world"

The Merlin I would contend

[Charlie Luncher]

Tourist
I have never flown on a Merlin so it cannot be claimed sorry:E WAFUs:hmm:
But you did give me a good laugh, tell me what you want found and where I will tell you what I need to do it, throw in a grey boat for fly bys and we are laughing.
I only work military solutions not some silly PC politic restrictive ROE bollox of course:*.
Charlie sends

[Pontius Navigator]

Tourist,

A serious response - true a helo in the dip may be superior to a jet with its a^se on fire but it does not cover the ground so well.

How long does it take a Merlin, or two, to drop a barrier 3-4 hours ahead of the force?

A helio might be more at risk from a MANPAD too; ok, that converts to a certsub and a cold datum :E

[Tourist]

PN

Manpad unlikely in the centre of the Atlantic, though I grant you the dastardly Boche have developed and sold sub launched SAMs. I would think the likelyhood of the Nimrod going unservicable and it taking 3 hrs for the next one to arrive thus leaving a gap is higher than the likelyhood of a SAM shooting down a Merlin fitted with a DAS. Also, there is always going to be more than one Merlin.

We used to maintain a barrier ahead of the fleet with SK6, and the Merlin is a lot more capable

[david parry]

Oh No:= Gordon Williamsons Jnr Scrap yard!!! His old man had plenty of Buccs Their from us!! PS open up Gan and send them their:D:D

[lokiukuk]

9 it is!!!

[anita gofradump]

Aaaaahhhhh, the uninformed trying to get a bite again. It makes one smile.

[KeepItTidy]

Interesting The Merlin better than the Nimrod......

Was it not as of late that a large Navy fleet failed to find a sub not so long ago in the yet the Nimrod was called in and found it in 4 hours.

Anyway I think there is no comparrison , thats why the RAF is trusted with defending the mainland UK rather than the Navy ;)

[Tourist]

"the RAF is trusted with defending the mainland UK rather than the Navy"

Just confirm that you are trusted with defending the mainland.
From a submarine.
Yup, I think that you should just about be able to manage that.
Meanwhile we will look after the shipping side of things.:rolleyes:

[Shack37]

Just confirm that you are trusted with defending the mainland.
From a submarine.



Quite right tourist, who needs defending against bunch of nuke subs? Can't do any damage........can they?

s37

[Tourist]

Yea, because the Nuc boats have to get within Nimrod range to launch at the UK, in just the same way that we make all of ours hang round Murmansk.
Oh, wait a minute no they don't do they.

[andgo]

Tourist,
and just how many sono buoys does a Merlin carry? Oh no wait a minute last time 1 was 'hot' on a real target he was poaching the buoys from another platform that WAS in contact....
Flown on a Merlin by the way and I think they are very good, but do be serious old chap

[enginesuck]

To be fair after recently returning from a certain location where Nimrods and Merlins operate from the the same ramp although doing very different jobs, i can report that the Nimrods did not lose a single sortie over several weeks of my being there whilst the Merlins seemed to be doing a sterling job of being broken most of the time....

And as for complaining of only having one Nimrod availiable for uk training and one deployed you obviously arent at ISK at the moment ....:ugh:

[Tourist]

How many sonobouys does my ship 15 mins away carry?
Who really cares?
Who is talking about sonobouys?
Oh, thats right, Nimrod can't dip, can it.

Do be serious yourself andgo. Having spent far too much time on cockfights on the mighty king, I know from the washups what the unwashed untermensch think of the relative threat to them between fixed wing ASW and rotary ASW, and the opinion that Nimrod is somehow the daddy is frankly deluded.
I am perectly willing to accept that the Nimrods advantages are useful, but there are also many disadvantages, especially when you have so few.

[Biggus]

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a sizeable UK task force that had both Nimrods (deep field) and Merlins (closer in) giving it ASW protection, you know, working together.....

Silly idea, I'll let you Nimrod and Melin boys get back to your p***ing contest...

[KeepItTidy]

Awesome least it got a few bites :ok:

Agree on serious side though both have good and bad. Combined they probably could do good if we had enough of them.

[BlackadderIA]

I thought this thread was about anti-piracy ops? Last time I checked the pirates didn't operate SSBNs, so all you actually need is a platform with a Radar that can pick up the big ships and the fast boats the Pirates use. Bit of cross-cueing action with a lynx/Merlin/sea eagle and bob's your father's brother.

The Radar on the RAF's latest big grey business jets here at Waddo picks up both with ease - could be a plan for some sunshine dets?
Also, Waddo's Historic Airliner's Memorial Flight aren't exactly maxed out with tasking at the moment. That big thing that follows them around on the rare occasions you see them flying probably picks up maritime targets as well.
Best of all though would probably be SeaKing ASaCs - their kit is awesome (just as shame it has no legs) and would keep the Navy happy.

[Double Zero]

You're going to be lucky to use a Sea Eagle - a good weapon ( I was on the trials ) but ditched for 'expense' all too quickly, quite a while ago now.

I'd like to know exactly what the 'expense' was, with a tried & tested ( on trials ) weapon...

It seems rather obvious, even to a punter like me ( at least I think that's what they called me ) that Merlin & Nimrod should hopefully work in unison.

I'm an aircraft type, specifically Harrier of both RAF GR5-7 & Sea Harrier 1 & 2 flavours, but it is so bloody obvious that the Navy needs more ships, not just 6 Type 45's - how many will be operational at one time, even given the fact that without all-out war one suspects only one CVF will be at sea ?

I cringe when I read of the Falklands 'missile trap' using two ships, one with the long range Sea Dart, the other with the more modern - but not perfect - Sea Wolf - also of whole land operations going awry because the ONE GUN on a warship went u/s...

Here's an idea, brilliantly innovative as I am and having heard the lessons of WWII from my father, + thanks to his & his like I have only read about it, not had to deal with war except work a bit extra from a large distance ( hat off to all in 1982 )...

How about actually equipping a warship with more than one bloody gun, and both long & short range missiles !

It would save using two 'platforms' and might actually be useful.

I know this is an aviation thread, and I'm talking naval aviation here; either we equip with Harrier 2+ & AMRAAM, while waiting god knows how long for the F-35B, or we don't go anywhere potentially nasty.

Harrier 2+ ( now we don't have Sea Harriers ) would be jolly good at sorting out pirates too, as seems trendy at the moment, and could link with Nimrods in the unlikely event there's one around; I actually get the impression they're quite busy, between 'Stan, rebuild & the scrappers !

[andgo]

Tourist.
Seems like you may have spent too much time with 'cockfights'.
Maybe the Nimrod and the Merlin should play nicely togather, when you are cleared to Dip, you can take all the contact you want and Nimrod will gladly fill any gaps in playtime. Maybe we should play nicely togather, just like we do somewhere where there are real ops.

[davejb]

Merlin,
yes - for covering any sort of an area use an MPA, if you have any sort of a datum get a dipper in. Buoys on ship - well, for simple speed to datum and buoy carrying capacity an MPA wins on that count of course, for reloads it depends where the second MPA is - generally, when there has been any doubt about the ability of the first a/c to do the job, further a/c are set to follow on....intervals being pretty manageable, as each one carries over 100 buoys! for monitoring the buoys I'd suggest mpa again - it would presumably take a number of Merlins, and a bit of luck, to monitor buoys x in a field? Try a Nimrod 10,000+ ft up....of course laying them is fairly snappy too, at the speed a Nimrod flies....

MPA are good for (1) Sono: covering a large area, with a decent chance of detecting a target and quickly refining the datum. They do need replacing, which takes a fairly major asset up when all is said and done - but they are AWFULLY good when they get there (Helos ARE cheaper, though)

(2) Radar coverage - I doubt anyone in the western world can cover as much of the surface, classifying contacts (correctly) as they go, as a Nimrod. Anyone on the Brazil 83 det will remember Frank James rather impressing the Brazilian navy regarding a Guppy at a rather long range.... I won't blunder into capabilities here, but Searchwater is exceptional in it's ability, with a decent operator, to classify targets at long range. I cannot imagine Helos doing anything like as well.

Nimrod has in fact done ahumungous number of anti surface ops, involving covert ident and tracking of targets, over the past 30 years to my knowledge. It would be ideal for anti piracy. The only problem is that the Nimrod fleet is going to be about the size of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight any day now, as Nimrod 2014 MRA 4 XLGSi 16v finally hits the pan, to be manned by an RAuxAF sqn composed of the long dead Max Aitken and Zombies resurrected from the Banff strike wing. (Or whatever Broon has provided the cash to cover this week).

It's a real pity.

Even more of a pity would be to see some ridiculous squabble between ASUW/ASW assets over who is better, when infighting weakens the fighting services, to the benefit of the politicians who don't really give a toss, and (gotta say it)

MPAs are better, anyway.

:}

Dave

(Horses for courses - Helos and MPAs have + and -, intelligent leaders play to strengths regardless of petty parochial arguments.)

[Bing]

An ASW bitch off, it's like watching stamp collectors and train spotters fight over who's the daddy.

[Pontius Navigator]

(2) Radar coverage - I doubt anyone in the western world can cover as much of the surface, classifying contacts (correctly) as they go, as a Nimrod.

Per sortie.

Chuck in a relatively low-tech role and you need lots of eyes in the sky, eyes we haven't got.

Given that the pirates can get some speed on you would need more than one sortie per day to watch them.

Same with the Magic Mushroom. Great for a surpic but no diferent really from intel or satellite. The threat is on the SLOC; there are ships on the SLOC; there are pirates on the SLOC. You do need to ident and then track.

One sortie per day will not cut it.

Doing fisheries patrols was a case in point. Everyone was a 'good boy' until the Nimrod did its patrol and as soon as our back was turned they would all sneak in across the line. One day, in a small area - the SWAPPS between French and Irish waters - we did a revisit and caught them all fishing illegally. Of course they ran. What they didn't know was that HMS Speedy was over the horizon and caught them in hot pursuit - 65 kts.

You need more eyes in the sky for 24 hrs at a time and a fast response unit - Merlin shall we say - otherwise the coverage will be too poor, the revisit times too long, and you will be lucky to catch them at it.

[Phoney Tony]

I heard the other day that E3Ds are going to the gulf to conduct maritime patrols.

[Phoney Tony]

I heard the other day that E3Ds are going to the gulf to conduct maritime patrols.

[thunderbird7]

I believe there is a Pelican at Ysterplaat ready and willing for this job. just looking for an international sponsor.

[Vim_Fuego]

Nice fishing trip PT...

The E3 could be of some worth in this scenario but it would need a low-boy whereas a Nimrod could locate and ID all by itself...

And I definately haven't heard that rumour...

[EODFelix]

Nimrod outta Seeb?

[Biggus]

EOD...

I refer you to posts 2 and 6, and possibly an Atlas.

It's not that long a thread, reading it from the beginning (which it appears, although I could be wrong, you haven't done) will save things being repeated.

Tone is often difficult to read/interpret in written text. I am not "having a go", although if you wish to feel upset at my comments that is your right!

[Yeller_Gait]

Long gone are the days that Nimrod could do the way up North, Caribbean and middle east stuff all at the same time. My personal estimate is that it will be at least 6*(minimum, subject to revision) years before they will be able to do so again.

The E3 is able to do the Carib stuff, and the non-asw North stuff, (flag-waving), but please, get MRA4 sorted sooner rather than later




Y_G

[spheroid]

There is little political will or indeed any commercial will to defeat the Indian Ocean Pirates. The recent NATO force which was formed has no teeth and indeed it is unclear as to whether the shipping companies actually want to get rid of the pirates.

[bangin0ut]

PT,

Not being funny (OK I am) but what use would an E3 be doing maritime patrols in the gulf? Having seen how well E3's do (not just how well they say they do), we are better off without them out there! (Yes I have seen the post det reports that allow me to come to this conclusion).

Nothing against the E3 guys, as they are good at what they do, but just because the radar has a maritime mode does not mean that it can do maritime ops!

[camelspyyder]

I'm with B0 on this one - the whole E3D to the Caribbean thing was complete B****cks. I know how hard the wee targets were to find on the MR2 radar let alone on some AEW set completely unsuitable for the role. Fact is the East African pirates use the same sort of high speed low freeboard craft and an E3 is never going to find them. If they havent got a job why do they bother chasing every role that comes up that they are not suitable for. Just park them all in Arizona and send the crews on gardening leave - I doubt they'll notice the difference;)

CS

[KeepItTidy]

In MR2 world we were told E3 done the Harmala thing was because we never had enough to do the job so they gasve it to the E3 world as they dont have much to do these days, dunno how true that is but they took ther best det from the Nimrod lads and we hate all Awacs cnuts for that ;)

[badgerfixer]

Nice sentiment there keepittidy. As you so rightly pointed out the nimrod world were overstretched and that is why the E3D was given its maritime role - which although it was not designed for, it can do to a suitable standard . As for the original thread, rumours are abound about all sorts of assets being used for anti piracy duties but I believe that there is no political will to commit, something that will change only if the media interest intensifies.

[Vim_Fuego]

Camelspyder...Having operated both in that environment and being highly sceptical of the latter I was pleasantly surprised...