Logging Airline hours

[nick14]

Hello all,

A thought came accross my mind today as I was sat pondering the impending training and line flying, How does the logging of hours go for a first time TR and line flying cadet?

Lets take a regular day:

Line training captain and Nick14 as FO for a EMA to GLA and back. Captain PF first, me as PM for a 1 hour leg. Im assuming that his name is in the Captain column, P2 in the operating capacity, and 1 hour goes down in P2,IFR and X-country??

For the return journey, I am PF and Capt is PM for another 1 hour leg. Again im assuming that his name is in the capains column,PIC goes in the operating capacity, and 1 hour in PIC,IFR and X-country??

My question is really can you log it as PIC if your name is not in the Captain column? If not then im assuming that is goes down as PICUS? If the latter is the case then absolute low hours guys from integrated courses will never get to the required 100 PIC or have I got my knickers in a twist?

Nick

[Bealzebub]

Captains name is entered in both cases. P2 for PNF legs logged as P2 (co-pilot) and P1/s (or PICUS) for PF legs, logged in P1 column. Get Captain to sign remarks entry for each leg where those hours are likley to be needed for regulatory purposes such as unfreezing an FATPL etc.

[nick14]

Many thanks,

If that is the case then how do people such as myself fufil the 100hrs PIC requirement to unfreeze?

Looking at FCL-1 it sates ATPL must have:1500TT,500 MPA, 250hrs PIC or 150 PICUS and 100 PIC, etc.

Graduates of integrated courses graduate with 70 PIC.

Nick

[Bealzebub]

I was simply answering the question in relation to the title, Logging Airline hours.

As to your question about Pilot in command, I suppose the simple answer is if you want to log P1 with your name in the commanders column, you go and rent a Cessna 172 or something similar and fly those hours in that capacity.

As a First Officer on an airliner you are either flying as P2 or as P1 under the supervision and authority of the aircrafts commander. If they were to become incapacitated then you would be justified in logging the relevant time as P1 since you would have assumed that temporary operational role under circumstances that permit it. Perhaps fortunetaly it is unlikley that such an unfortunate scenario would occur with enough frequency to enable someone to amass 100 hours though.

[nick14]

Many thanks for answering the question.

I didn't mean to sound dismissive at all, If I did I apologise, I was looking for a bit of clarification.

Its just another hidden cost for us really, ontop of the integrated course.

Many thanks

Nick

[potkettleblack]

Integrated bods also log SPIC during their training to fulfill the requirements to unfreeze their ATPL. LASORS refers.

As an aside I have a JAA FCL logbook (big black jeppy thing). The captains name is always written down in the commander column. When I fly (acting as PF) I log it as PICUS or P1/s. I have annotated above my P1 column P1/s. I always get the captain to initial my logbook at the end of the days flying. When I am PM I log P2 time. You cannot log any time as PIC until you occupy the left seat in a multi crew environment (2 crew).

[FL370 Officeboy]

Assuming you hold a UK issued licence - from LASORS:

An applicant for a JAR-FCL ATPL(A) shall have completed
as a pilot of aeroplanes at least 1500 hours of flight time
(see G1.2 Notes). This must include the particular
requirements specified in a, b, c, d & e below. Each of
these requirements must be met in full but, hours may
be credited, where appropriate, towards more than one
requirement except where stated otherwise.

a. 500 hours Multi-Pilot operations on aeroplanes type
certificated in accordance with the JAR/EASA-CS/
FAR-25 Transport Category or the JAR/EASA-CS/
FAR-23 Commuter Category or BCAR or AIR 2051;

b. i. 500 hours as Pilot-in-Command under
supervision; or
ii. 250 hours Pilot-in-Command (PIC) of
Aeroplanes, or;
iii. 250 hours made up by at least 70 hours
as Pilot-in-Command and the necessary
additional flight time as Pilot-in-Command
under supervision (PIC/US). (see Notes
below).

c. 200 hours Cross-country flight time of which at least
100 hours shall be as Pilot-in-Command or as Pilot-in-
Command under supervision

d. i. 75 hours Instrument time, can include (ii);
ii. 30 hours (max) Instrument Ground Time.
e. 100 hours Night flight as Pilot-in-Command (PIC) or
as Co-Pilot (PIC/US or P2)

G1.2 Notes
JAR-FCL 1.050 sets out the way in which flight time will be
credited for a licence.
The 1500 hours flying experience may comprise flight
time in any of the following capacities:
• as Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full;
• as Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full;
• as Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full. For
licence issue, confirmation of such flight time will be
required. This can either take the form of a letter from
the operating company or certification of each flight
within the pilot’s logbook by the Pilot-in-Command.
• as Co-Pilot (P2), counted in full;

So, as far as PIC time goes, at the time you apply you would probably have amassed the 500hrs PICUS as PF...if not then a combination of 70hrs PIC + 180hrs as PICUS when PF would satisfy b.iii. If not then you just keep going until you satisfy one of the criteria even if it means you go past 1500hrs before you can apply.

:ok:

[Bealzebub]

Nothing of any meaningful value. You can log it as safety pilot in the column headed "any other flying," if you really want to, although there is no requirement to do so. However the totals do not contribute to the total flying hours.

The time spent in this capacity does count for the purpose of duty time though.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Safety pilot is non-logable time if you are the third pilot on the flight deck of an aircraft certified for 2-pilot operations.

There is no real need to get your logbook countersigned as PIC/us after each flight (it does get a bit of a bore after a while). The only reason is to show that you have the time when you need to unfreeze the ATPL. Generaly most people obatin a letter from the pilot manager / chief pilot stating that all the time is as required by the CAA

[Massy]

if PM, P2 time is entered in co-pilot column of the jepp logbook, right?

[mad_jock]

Before you go sticking everything that your PF on down as PICUS please check first that your airline doesn't have any policy's on this. Some say you can only do it with training Captains others that you can't do it period unless on a command build up program. Guys have hour built just to get the PIC time up so they can get an ATPL to get a pay rise.

And secondary ask the Captain before you start the days flying. There are some very strong views out there about PICUS and what you have to do to be able to log it. Some don't care others do very strongly.

Be warned you might have a small nuclear explosion coming from the LHS if you at the end of the day hand your log book over and ask for a signature and the subject of PICUS hasn't been mentioned prior to this.

There are a few Captains out there that FO's will be never PICUS while there is a breath in thier body. In fact according to one not even if they have snuffed it in the LHS because technically he would still be alive until after you landed and the Doctor certified him dead.

Saying all that if nobody cares at your airline crack on and log it. Personally I can't get wound up about it because the learning I did in a PA38 fying VFR had not alot to do with flying a multicrew aircraft. So I can't see while CPL's should to be made to jump through hoops for this requirment. I have seen enough people fail command checks to know that the system is safe enough as it is.

[wilcoluca]

In logging P1/s hours, do you thins would be correct to log these hours also as Co-pilot hours?

[FL370 Officeboy]

P1/s is logged as PIC.

[IrishJetdriver]

If you fly in the UK in a G registered aircraft, then I recommend you use the splendid CAA CAP407 logbook. It has detailed instructions on how it should be filled in. All comments so far are addressed here.

Personally, I expect my FOs to log their PF time in the P1 column as P1S with my name as commander. When they are PNF then their time goes in the P2 column. I also suggest that when they are PF the time from takeoff to touchdown is entered in the Instrument Flying column.

For my logbook, it's all P1 however I also log the I/F time and keep a note in the remarks column as to the name of the FO and whether I was PF or PNF for each flight.

[Massy]

P2 in jepp log is co-pilot column?

[MikeAlphaBravo]

Thats right Massy.

[wilcoluca]

Ok.

I just reckon I had been logging P1/s hours also as copilot hours. I was wrong. All the hours I had as P1/s signed by the captain are going to be logged only into the P1 column.

Thanks for your help.

[mad_jock]

I wouldn't worry about it.

In someways it might help you out in the future.

After you get LHS when applying for jobs they are only interested with PIC hours PICUS is of no use after you have your ATPL issued.

Most folk have to rejig there log books to get rid of the PICUS from there PIC column.

[Massy]

Thx MAB

Max