Light Aircraft Down at Fenland [Archive]

Merlin513

21st Feb 2009, 14:17

As a member of Fenland aero club I can confirm the fatal accident at EGCL, the sole occupant was a member at FAC. I am aware of both the pilots name and type but until next of kin have been notified this will remain confidential.

More respect should be given to the family and friends rather than...what type!

My condolances to all family and friends in this difficult time.

bjornhall

21st Feb 2009, 15:19

Merlin513, sorry to hear that, and quite obviously the details should to be kept confidental for a little bit longer.

When someone asks for what type was involved just after an accident, it usually means "someone please tell me it wasn't [pilot friend flying from the same airfield]", not "tell me the type so I can cross it out of my anorak's note book". So the question is quite understandable I think...

vanHorck

21st Feb 2009, 15:31

The article reports a mayday right after take off and return to the field without further communications.

There is a thread running about such returns to the field :
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/363093-impossible-turn-possible.html

No connection implied of course! Another sad day for GA and even worse for family and friends....

Rod1

21st Feb 2009, 16:36

The aircraft reg is clearly visible on the BBC pic. Owner builder according to G-INFO.

Sad day.

Rod1

DavidHoul52

21st Feb 2009, 17:13

Same aircraft, I believe, was subject to an earlier AAIB inquiry

It seems the accident was quite minor and the aircraft not badly damaged.

AAIB here (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/cms_resources/Mickleburgh%20L107,%20G-BZVC%2010-07.pdf)

S-Works

21st Feb 2009, 18:18

This was a sad case of someone attempting a steep turn at low level after what looked like an EFATO to land back on the 36 runway. I was in the overhead at the time joining for fuel and another of our guys was on base as the accident happened.

After that I went to Rochester and promptly watched a PA28 crash. Not a good day.

liam548

21st Feb 2009, 18:32

sad news.

^ what happened with the PA28? occupants ok?

S-Works

21st Feb 2009, 18:35

Yes they got out OK, pictures on another thread on here.

frontlefthamster

21st Feb 2009, 22:44

Bose, you wrote:

This was a sad case of someone attempting a steep turn at low level after what looked like an EFATO to land back on the 36 runway

Perhaps you'd like to ring the folk at Farnborough more promptly next time, and save them a trip up the motorway on a weekend? You could jot your findings down and send them, along with your invoice.

Rightbase

21st Feb 2009, 22:47

Witnesses deserve some consideration too.

frontlefthamster

21st Feb 2009, 22:57

Rightbase

21st Feb 2009, 23:25

Perhaps there are more comments being made
on the basis of preconceptions
than we all realise.

Apologies for the tone of my earlier post.

Let's not make a bad day worse.

S-Works

22nd Feb 2009, 08:24

They certainly do, but I believe the greatest consideration should go to the deceased, and that should begin with avoiding stupid attempts to determine the cause of the accident on the basis of preconceptions and a distant view of what happened...

I merely posted what I saw and my assessment as an Instructor. When an aircraft makes a very steep turn from the take-off runway to the 36 runway and the nose drops and it spins in then my feeling is that it stalled in following an attempted turn back. Straight ahead would have ended up in a flat field with nothing to hit but pride.

But that's just my opinion. If you don't like it. don't read it.

DavidHoul52

22nd Feb 2009, 08:44

Given that this is the most common scenario when an aircraft tries to return to the airfield after an EFATO this is what most of us will be thinking whether we say so or not.

There may of course be other factors so we may yet be surprised by a forthcoming AAIB report.

This topic of what to write after news of an accident is important, I feel but has been discussed at length already on this forum. The correct procedure to voice objections is to PM the moderator, surely? If you disagree with what bose-x has said ask him to elaborate (which he has now done).

DB6

22nd Feb 2009, 08:59

Quite so. It's been said before, but to the 'Wait for the AAIB' types:
1) Don't read RUMOUR networks (most of the rest of us can grasp that one).
2) Why aren't you in church? For you are holier than I.

J.A.F.O.

22nd Feb 2009, 13:31

The very fact that Bose has posted his thoughts on a possible cause means that, regardless of the findings of the AAIB, at least if I should have an EFATO his comments will be in there somewhere and might be part of what prompts me to not turn back.

My only difficulty with that type of thing is that if a friend or family member is reading the presumption of AE may be upsetting, as I saw with an incident a couple of years ago.

There's no right or wrong answer, it's a very difficult time for all concerned. Is it sadder to walk out to your aircraft knowing it's your last flight ever or to walk out not knowing?

Thoughts are with family and friends of our brother pilot.

VFE

22nd Feb 2009, 16:31

Without wishing to belittle anyone here, or indeed this website.... but I seriously doubt the significance of any discussion here on yesterdays accident is really going to make any worse the grief of those who mattered most to the deceased. Really. Let's getover ourselves and talk about flight safety. Bose-X has added an insight here for which any pilot reading should be grateful

VFE.

juliet india mike

22nd Feb 2009, 16:45

This is from his son, posted on another place:

"Tragically, David Mickleburgh was killed shortly after take-off from Fenland Airfield around 11am on Saturday 21st February 2009.

You may know of David from his home-built aircraft, the Leburg Sparrow, G-BZVC, which was featured on the cover of the May 2008 edition of Light Aviation.

All the staff at Fenland and the emergency services, including the air ambulance, acted promptly and professionally and the family would like to express their appreciation for all their efforts.

By way of some solace, David died whilst living his dream of flying his own designed and built aircraft.

He will be dearly missed, by his wife Edith, his children and grandchildren.

Anyone who knew David as a meticulous and vigilant pilot would also know that his pragmatism would prefer donations to the Lincolnshire air ambulance, rather than flowers.

I will post details of his funeral as soon as they are arranged.

We would have loved to have him (my Dad) around for a few years more!

Henry Mickleburgh"

RIP
Aviation Forums for pilots - from FLYER Magazine (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=52772&highlight)=

Whirlygig

22nd Feb 2009, 16:49

There is another thread asking why there's less informed posting on this forum these days, and also less women posting.

This is a good example why. Bose was an actual witness to the crash, posted what he saw, and still the "wait for the AAIB report before you speak of the accident" brigade come out.

Quite so. It's been said before, but to the 'Wait for the AAIB' types:
1) Don't read RUMOUR networks (most of the rest of us can grasp that one).

And there we have it in a nutshell. Except I prefer not to read speculative rumours even from apparent eye witnesses.

Cheers

Whirls

VictorGolf

22nd Feb 2009, 16:50

I hesitate to query the detail in your comments Bose, but had the unfortunate pilot got airborne before the 26/36 intersection, hence the right hand turn to get back down on 36? Or had he gone past the intersection which would have meant a steeper turn? Just trying to work out what I might have done differently.

S-Works

22nd Feb 2009, 16:56

VG, All I can tell you is what I saw, a turn onto 36, eyewitnesses on the ground would have a better idea of the angles.

And there we have it in a nutshell. Except I prefer not to read speculative rumours even from apparent eye witnesses.

Cheers

Whirls

I think you will find that the AIB will talk to me and the other witnesses just as they did the last time I had input on a fatal.

VictorGolf

22nd Feb 2009, 17:05

Thanks Bose, upsetting for all concerned. I'll wait to see what other witnesses have to say in due course.

SpannerInTheWerks

22nd Feb 2009, 18:56

Oh dear oh dear.

Another fatality this year - it seems like it's happening every week these days.

Why a low level steep turn following an EFATO?! Surely it's well known that it's a no-no unless you have bags of height (more than 500 feet MINIMUM).

With Fenland being, well, in the middle of the fens (flat) why oh why was that considered the the only option I wonder?!

I can't pass on condolences to someone I don't know, but my feelings go out to all concerned.

SITW :sad:

atceng

22nd Feb 2009, 19:36

Instead of waiting years for a reason we have an expert eyewitness who not only saw the accident but has the knowledge to describe exactly what occurred without adding any presumptions.
This is an invaluable warning to the rest of us.
I for one will not be fobbed off with 'oh we'll find somewhere' again.
Before my next lesson I will know where to land after EFATO at both ends of the runway,and will establish the same for any other runway used away from 'home'.

Fujiflyer

22nd Feb 2009, 20:19

I think the comments made by atceng and others, posting similar, constructive advice should be welcomed. EFATO is obviously a situation where there is no time to consider options (ie spend any time thinking about what to do, after the failure has occurred), as by its nature does not afford the luxury of the few seconds of time needed to do so.

I regularly fly out of Shoreham Airport on the south coast of the UK. I consider myself as being reasonably familiar with the surroundings, however in the light of this tragedy I decided to have a close look at the aerial maps of the area (using (Google Earth). I was surprised at the additional insight I gained, from doing just that. I think we should all look at our undershoot / overshoot / EFATO "options," in advance (at our regular airports). I think that previously I had overlooked doing this because: (a) I (wrongly) assumed I was very familiar with the ATZ I use frequently (the pattern / procedure - yes, but not the actual ground), (b) had not considered the other methods (ie use of internet) of studying the areas around the ATZ, in particular the areas at each end of the runway.

Rich

PompeyPaul

22nd Feb 2009, 20:22

What height WOULD you attempt to go back? I've always thought at around 1500ft AAL in a PA28, I would attempt a return after EFATO. Less than that and I would go straight ahead. I've NEVER tried it though. Kill the power and attempt a 180 to see how much height I lose. Any informed opinions out there ?

DavidHoul52

22nd Feb 2009, 21:31

I simulated EFATO at 200 feet on various aircraft on FSX to see what happened. Invariably they nose dived into the ground about half way through the steep turn- all except for the Cessna 152 and the Piper Cub, both of which made it back to the runway. One could also put in two stages of flap during the steep turn and then get rid of them when straightening out (as in a canyon box turn).

Not sure if this has any significance - I don't think I'll rely on FSX programming accuracy or lack of it to determine my fate! Believe me I would not try it on a real aircraft unless at a good height. I would hardly think it would need to be 1500 feet aal though.

Now to Google Earth to find my landing ahead options at my home airfield....

hmmm - spoilt for choice on 22 - need to watch out for the mast though. 04 the M25 is a factor.

SpannerInTheWerks

23rd Feb 2009, 01:43

DavidHoul52

No, no, no - don't even think about FSX as being a useful tool in these circumstances!

Okay you might make it from 200 feet on your computer, just like you can fly a B737 under the Runcorn bridge - but it is not how you're trained and it's NOT what is acceptable. Don't even put this kind of rubbish in people's heads, especially the more inexperienced.

Flying instructors (should) put a lot of effort into pointing out the suitable landing areas for the 'home' field, as well as general principles in the case of an EFATO. It is possible to plan for most eventualities depending on the height when the engine fails - this is what you train for during climb out, crosswind, downwind, not flying too far away from the field to ensure you are always within gliding distance and all those other good points regarding airmanship, mnenomics and the like.

This is one subject where armchair theories must be ignored and practical, safe instruction adhered to.

It is very unfortunate that one man has proved this to be the case (assuming, with the greatest respect, that the observed flight was in fact a true account of events - I don't doubt it, but time and thorough investigation will prove the issue).

SITW :sad:
(FI)

blue up

23rd Feb 2009, 05:35

David will be sorely missed. A technical genius and a nice bloke.

I hope that someone else will carry on his development work on aircraft systems since it was one of the best pieces of kit ever invented.

R.I.P.

pulse1

23rd Feb 2009, 07:26

No, no, no - don't even think about FSX as being a useful tool in these circumstances!

I've never used FSX but I have tried EFATO with a Cessna 172 on FS2004. As long as you actually stop the engine it gives a fairly realistic idea of reality. It showed me that, depending on conditions, anything more than a 90 degree turn is not on below about 800'. The actual limit depends on wind strength and the size of the airfield you have just left. E.g is a down wind landing a viable option?

Avitor

23rd Feb 2009, 09:59

Pilot killed in plane that he built himself - Peterborough Today (http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/Pilot-killed-in-plane-that.5005765.jp)

Tragic.

hatzflyer

23rd Feb 2009, 11:18

Not wishing to add anything controvercial about the sad loss I post the following in the spirit that others may learn.
I have 28 full engine failures under my belt (used to test fly for a dodgy engineer!..long story..).The only time I bent the plane was the only time I put out a mayday.The height loss was significant due to the time taken and spoilt my choices by the time I had transmitted. I note that David made a mayday .
My advice to anyone is No.1) Fly the plane. No.2)Fly the plane. No.3) Fly the plane .
Unless you are in cruise at 5000ft s*d the mayday call. No one can respond quick enough to help you anyway .
I am not making any assumtions merely trying to stop anyone making the same mistake(as me) if they find themselves in this situation.

Dan Dare

23rd Feb 2009, 23:07

No.1) Fly the plane. No.2)Fly the plane. No.3) Fly the plane

Quite sound advice, but when you are upside down in a ditch with an aircraft on top of you it would be comforting to know that someone has missed you and that help is on the way - it would be disappointing to survive the landing, but die slowly of hypothermia. Even just the word MAYDAY would be enough to get people thinking about who should be talking to them, you don't necessarily need the full 30 second version.

David was a real gentleman and aviation will be all the poorer without him.