Unimpressed by pilots

[NIJASEA]

When/how did we loose the respect and appeal of being a pilot :confused:?
I remember going to flying school and having so much respect for the crew of the aircraft and going into the cockpit and having this awe-struck look on my face. I recently had a kid in the flight deck (on ground engines off) and all he could think of was the fact we had to sit there all the time he was sleeping. Have we lost the appeal this job had?
Anyone had a recent experience where you were introduced as a pilot and the other person went WOW.
FLY SAFE :ok:

[LongJohnThomas]

NIJASEA,
The 'wow' factor that used to surround being a pilot is history!
This world has evolved into one that is Capital based and hard work is left to this who believe they have consciences.
I say this looking at other professions where less work is put in and more money earned.
Needless to say, Pilots have now become Instrument Managers and rarely actually fly the airplanes in the real world.
Take a look at jobs in I.T. for instance? I have a friend here who works 3 days a week, and 2 at home doing absolutely nothing and maybe 4 hours on each of these 3 days and takes home £13K at the end of the month.
Another, a Personal injury Lawyer, in court twice a week and walks home with a whooping £15K.
I would say wow to that!
I wouldn't be hailing the man who flies all over the world, putting his family life in jeopardy, and taking home £5-K monthly and thinking he has truly achieved something.
Then again, thats only an opinion.
Unfortunately, we no longer are the ones who create wonder amongst the youth of today.
Have a conversation with anyone (not a pilot) who is proficient on Flight-Sim 2008, you will be amazed at their knowledge levels; this includes my 9 year old step-son.:oh:
Thats just the way life has gone; sorry!:ouch::ok::}

[The Actuator]

From NIJASEA : "When/how did we loose the respect and appeal of being a pilot ?"

I think it has been ever since we could not tell the difference between lose and loose!:ok:

[maxrated]

Good point,

The respect and appeal of being a pilot got chucked out the window the day that the first airline crew allowed themselves to be bullied into removing their shoes and belt in full public view by some imbecilic, semi-literate, pimpled adolescent security person, in the name of safety.

While we as pilots were collectively dissecting our company SOP’s, arguing air law, and attending union meetings or yet another damn crm/sept/first aid course or just stabbing each other in the back as we climbed the seniority ladder, we allowed the dignity of our profession to be completely shat upon by the technocrats and politicians that we now allow, to hold sway over our collective lives and careers.

We have allowed the most junior accountants in our airlines to have more authority and respect than the most senior captains in the company. We have allowed the pen pushers, administrators and other jam-stealers of aviation (who generally would be unable to distinguish a Tiger-Moth from a space shuttle), to dictate the terms of our own profession to us.

Our generation of pilots have allowed ourselves to be coerced into agreeing with the uninformed opinions of the left wing liberal politico technocrats who think that a pilot with nail clippers in his pockets poses a threat to the safety of his aircraft.

The respect of our profession gets kicked in the gonads every time those pimply faced **** security people make a pilot parade numerous times through the security machine in full view of the flying public, with his shoes and belt removed while trying to prevent his trousers from falling down to his ankles.

The saddest thing is that we have collectively allowed this to happen.

:mad::mad:

[RobinB]

I think anyone who was on board "Captain Sully's" bird, would dissagree. In fact anyone who watched that bit of flying would give such pilots the keys to their daughters chastity belts. I guess technology has made flying "easier" as opposed to the "older generation" flying by the seat of their pants. Perhaps one of the "problems" is that all pilots LOVE to fly as opposed to all IT nerds "loving" their sometimes boring jobs - bet you many such "nerds" would love to fly "real aeries" as opposed to their screens and keyboards. AND, not all IT nerds and lawyers earn the kind of cash you are advocating. Most lawyers I know work ****ty hours and put up with megacrap from clients. Same goes for IT bods - I am one of these - we work long hours and also have to put up with client and management stress. As for me, I would forgo an undiluted orgy with Miss Universe to be able to move from my screen/keyboard cockpit to the Real McCoy.

At least "you stick 'n rudder jocks" have one fan - me (for what it's worth). PS - my next flight is from FAJS to FADN on Sunday 15 March (evening) via BA - so I expect an invite to the "front seats" so I can blaze away with my trusty Canon 350D and have said "fruits of my hobby" published in Jetphotos !!!!!!!!!!! Then it's FADN to FAPE to FACT and then back home.:ok:

[Wear the Fox Hat]

I think it's unfair to say that we have completely lost the respect and appeal that surrounded the job in the early days of aviation.

Yes the traveling public see pilots and airplanes as more commonplace these days and they have every right to given that air travel is now within reach of most if not all social classes (I speak for Europe). However I have come across people who are genuinely intrigued by my profession, as well as kids who stand frozen on the flight deck with eyes wide open.

It still happens in todays World, it's by no means a "run of the mill" occupation by any stretch and that in itself is a point of interest for most people.

Anyways I doubt many of us got into the profession to have people kneel before us and sing our praises, I got into the profession cause I love flying. And whilst to a degree you are a systems/instruments manager, ultimately you are still flying and charged with the responsibility of 100's of people in a hostile environment - I'm sure Capt Sully would agree. Through training, LPC's/OPC's, tech refreshers, etc I find more and more pilots "dumb down" the job cause thats now what they have become used too. You still get a buzz from a fluid approach/CDA and landing, come on we all do - I'm a child at heart and I love it. I can guarantee you my lawyer/IT professional friends don't get the same satisfaction from their careers....

On that note, the salaries quoted for those professions are at the top of the scale, the very top! I'm sure you could find some flight deck earning similar amounts in various parts of the World.

[rudder hard over]

I still enjoy the pilot lifestyle. I don't really see it as going to work. while my mates are in the office, I am either flying or sailing my yaught. I cant think of a better lifestyle

[I.R.PIRATE]

Apart from all the reasons stated above, the biggest destroyer of that "specialness" you talk about, is that these days the only difference between a pilot and the man on the street - is the size of his wallet.

Long gone are the days when skill, ability and competency were required.

[Propellerpilot]

Flying burns down to experience and good training - it is definatly not rocket science. I personally don't give a :mad: about what average Joe thinks of my profession and I also don't have to boost my ego with public opinion. To be honest I even think the times when pilots where treated like gods of the skies where totally overrated. Both extremes are due to ignorance. Those people that are in the loop will surely respect our jobs realistically.

People working in maintainance, operations, baggage loaders etc who also work in our environment and the men and woman our safety depends on also deserve equal respect of making safe aviation possible.

Just to pose a different view on the subject.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

It's because we don't wear big sparkly hats any more...

[Siguarda al fine]

SRT Howzit? I say let them keep the respect and lets have more money instead.

[james ozzie]

I think it is all perception, which of course is reality. If you know something about aviation, you appreciate the skills and training required of a pilot. People outside of aviation often say some dumb things, like Duchess Fergie saying she was going "to take helicopter lessons" (like a piano??)

And when I used to look through the (no longer) open flight deck door of a commuter plane and the see the pilot-not-flying with a newspaper spread out over the panel, my reaction was:

"Hell, yes, enjoy the paper because I know when the stuff hits the fan, you will be 200% focussed on working the problem, with all those hours of experience and sim training kicking in".

But maybe an uninformed passenger would see it less favourably?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

G'day Siguarda. Yup, we're not called contract whores for nothing.:}

I can absorb a lot of crap for a comfortably padded pay check.:ok:

[RobinB]

Long gone are the days when skill, ability and competency were required.

And you believe the "man on the street" does not have any of the above ? The size of the wallet is directly influenced by two things:

1: If you want to live like a king, you have to work like a slave.
2: The more "skill, ability and competency" you have together with Point 1 = Mega KING salary.

Go figure :=

[MungoP]

Maybe it will start being a profession again when we regain enough respect to refuse to fly with any dreaming wanabee who's willing to fly for food... and insist that fares are increased to ensure that pilots receive a salary that reflects a professionals status....

Oh yes... by the way... I've heard that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow.

[albertaboy]

From the prespective of a brand new commercial pilot, I get way more respect then I should :) Many people love not just the idea of flying and the dangers it involves (which are far less than they think), but many love the idea of making sacrafices to follow a dream. How many people can say they are excited to wake up in the morning and start their day!

[Orangputi]

Ooh please! Sorry if you dont get the salute from the firm thighed hosties you used to get! Or being called Sir or Captain from the poor engineer who studied harder and has heaps more knowledge about your aircraft and many others like it than you do!

What a lot of conceited crap! The job always had an egocentric edge to it especially with flag carrier crews like the red rat or BA.

[squared]

Hello,
If You Are Looking For A Wow In This World As A Pilot You Are Time Bad.
No More Heroes In Flying.even Young Kids Are Flying Sim On There Computers At Home.

Just Give Yourelf A Wow If You Fly Out Safely ,in Remote Africa From Bush Airfields And Do Not Knock Any Over 50 Ft Obstacles.

[I.R.PIRATE]

RobinB, if you honestly believe that anyone off the street automatically has the acumen, and aptitude to be a safe pilot - you have a lot to learn.

Why do you think Psych testing plays a bigger role than perceived flying skill in most air forces and airlines of the world?

[Insane]

Just Give Yourelf A Wow If You Fly Out Safely ,in Remote Africa From Bush Airfields And Do Not Knock Any Over 50 Ft Obstacles.

Or carve up a few goats or bystanders in the process of getting in and out of those remote airfields!!:ok:

[Doodlebug2]

Just like I'm unimpressed by financial advisors, insurance salesmen, second-hand car dealers, lawyers, doctors, bankers, IT entrepeneurs, builders, plumbers, electricians, politicians, Bob, JZ, Thabo, need I say more !! :E

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I've had a LOT of people very interested in my profession, and wanting to hear all about it. It probably IS less of a big deal now, because there are TONS more pilots now than there used to be, and people are flying more and more as PAX, so it seems more routine.

Pay goes up and down as everything does. In the US, about 50% of the General Practioners (MDs) want to quit within the next 5 years, because the pay is not worth the aggravation.

I was a teacher, with a Master's Degree (University 4-year, plus two more), and I started at $28,000/year. MAX pay after God knows how many years, and a Doctorate degree plus TONS of additional classes and training, was about $65,000.

I just saw and ad for an A-320 Captain and FO. The Captain's pay is $12-$15K (USD)/month, plus all expenses paid. Sure, some pilots don't get paid that much, but they CAN get paid a lot.

If you think the job is crap today, then quit, and those of us that want to do it will have a better chance at a better job!

cliff
KGRB

[Orangputi]

Good on you atpcliff time for some perspective. Some of the greatest winers are the most high paid, just look at the CX A scale guys rest my case.

[NIJASEA]

I started this thread not to determine if we were paid well or lived well, rather to find out if the average joe public was still impressed with our profession. From my recent experience it seems we are just a group of glorified cab drivers. Don't misunderstand I love flying and seeing a fantastic sunrise/sunset over the great African continent (nothing better):ok:.

[Der absolute Hammer]

NIJASEA

Joe Public seems alsways to have been impressed with me as a pilot.
This arrogance of statement is made because I have always had my uniform on as though I were on military parade.
My shirt is always tucked in.
My tie is always a windsor knot.
My uniform is always clean.
It is always pressed.
My shoes shine.
I do not wear dongles aaround my neck or sunglasses.
I wear a cap.
My flighyt bag is a Jeppesen without stupid stickers to show I have been to LaLa Lufthansa land.
I never eat in public in uniform-or drink.
I never drive my car with epaulletes on.
I keep my body in shape and nebver look like a slob.
If passengers are at a lose, I stop to try to help them and I smile at people, even after 69 sectors.
In short sir, on the ground, I try to be a credit to a parade ground.
In the air, I try to be a credit to my profession.

[porra]

I can't believe I've just waisted 10 minutes of my life reading how pilots feel dejected by people who are no longer "..impressed" by what they do...!

The 'ol... "How do you know a pilot is at your party..." joke comes to mind..

let go guys - no one cares!

P

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Hot Diggety Dog!

I'm impressed. Every time I see myself in a mirror I want to lock myself in a cupboard and thrap until my eyes bleed.:hmm:

[Shrike200]

^^^ Best comment so far SRT!

Disrespect for authority is pretty much a standard feature of the way the world works these days, but that's not really what worries me.

What bothers me is the disrespect for our profession in our own industry. And I don't mean the 'you must kiss the ground I walk on' type of 'respect', but the true respect for what we actually do - respect from the managers and 'businessmen' who employ us to be the final judges of safety on the line, to protect the passengers who pay their salaries as well as our own. Management sometimes seem to view us as 'the enemy', overpaid fools who sit up front doing nothing but read the paper, suck resources and complain about T's & C's.

I was running over this, comparing other professions to our own - for example, a relative, working for a multi-national company, is constantly reminded (not in words, but by their actions) by his company that he is an asset to them. Pilots, on the other hand, are not viewed as 'solutions' (or money-generators), but as 'problems'. This despite the obvious result at the end of our days work, namely several hundred (depending) safe and happy passengers, and a smoothly running, intact aircraft. A lot more respect is often due to the cabin crew and engineers too. Management, on the other hand, can happily blunder around making some pretty dismal choices (pathetic fuel hedging, cutting funds for necessary functions, shortsighted and chaotic decisions etc) yet still award themselves a nice big bonus! If we did our job as badly, SA roads would have a lot more 737/A319 sized potholes in them.

[Klogic]

@Nijasea
I do not see myself as a glorified cab driver please.that is quite degrading.I am proud of my profession.
I believe you have had only one career,being a 'glorified cab driver.Having worked in different sectors,the only difference between we and the others is that we fly.otherwise,the politics is all the same.the **** we go through is all the same even worse in other professions.if you think the guy on the other seat doesn't like you or is an arrogant dumb,you get the same orientation doing an office job.

Daily I meet people who apart from being intrigued by what I do,are also impressed.


Working in Nigeria, very few places pay like what we get.try the civil service,or banking where u are turned into a beggar as a marketer.

[boyracer]

I really hope that there are no pilots out there doing it for the image. Flying is a passion , why care about the image .unfortunately for for those of us still living our childhood dream ( who are fortunate to have one) the only way we can get our kicks is to fly for an airline, the frustrations of which are great, we are managed by the non passionate and they thrive on the fact that we live for what we do.
Sometimes we forget about our love for aviation , but take it away and see how we will wither , its our sole , our blood and life we are living the dream we had as children.
To all who consider the IMAGE and have doubts I say stay away you will be unhappy .To the truly passionate welcome to the best time of your life.

[BEEDEE]

Well said, porra. The arrogance that shines out from some of these posts, is SCARY. What about brain/heart/neuro-surgeons, nuclear and other scientists, astronomers and many, many other HIGHLY educated professions. These people are in it because they LOVE their work and want to make a contribution to society. Unlike what some arrogant pilots are almost suggesting, these people don't walk around with a large sign around their neck which reads: "HEY EVERYBODY. I'M A SURGEON/SCIENTIST/ASTRONOMER. THEREFORE YOU OWE ME BIG TIME. IF NOTHING ELSE, YOU OWE ME RESPECT." In the same vein, as an elderly American astronaut and moonwalker was saying in a TV interview recently: He also discovered that he couldn't walk around for the rest of his life displaying a sign reading: "I WALKED ON THE MOON. YOU OWE ME!!!" He had to literally come back down to earth and get on with his life to the best of his ability. Pilots should be pilots because they love the job and want to be the best they can at the job and because they want to contribute in some small way to society - and certainly not because it makes non-pilots look up to them in awe. What a DANGEROUS attitude. If you became a pilot because you thought it would entitle you automatically to respect, you'd be better off for the whole profession by getting out fast. There are MUCH better reasons for becoming a pilot. Hopefully the more arrogant posters on this thread will soon discover these reasons.

BEEDEE.

[ARENDIII]

Aaah Yes! To be a Sky God and still get a retainer now and again!

[MungoP]

Basically pilots fall into two categories....

Category one is the pilot discussed at the dinner table... over paid...airborne taxi driver... surrounded by hot pussy... job done by auto-pilot.. blah blah blah... usually described thus by hoplessly unqualified pratt selling life insurance, cars... or himself.

Cat 2... the guy up front in the cockpit when useless pratt described above is passenger on a/c caught in major thunderstorm activity close to destination airport with an alternate also looking dodgy and having landed safely in a blustery x-wind on a slick runway gets applauded by sweating and sh*tting himself pratt who realises that he's safely back on earth thanks to the.... "over paid...airborne taxi driver... surrounded by hot :mad:... job done by auto-pilot.. Blah Blah Blah "

regards... Mungop

[KRONOS]

Shrike how you managed to turn this thread into a wallow of self pity and oh the idiotic fools in management, get a life, it is jerk-offs like yourself who dont know :mad:, all the way pissing like a girl but NEVER actually do the very simple job of flying the plane and the other stressfull activities like emptying the content of the catering box, not doing your paperwork correctly, you all think you are superstars because your mommy said so, FLYING IS NOT DIFFICULT!!!!!we are not crossing the Atlantic in pistons, with a navigator and flight engineer doing the actual work.... go study for your MBA or go do something like IT where people really make a lot of money, or dont you have enough grey matter? possibly not even enough for management, if what came out of your piehole made sense they might have listened....alternatively, Like the Hammer said, try to look and act like a professional, be courteous and helpfull, or shut the :mad: up, do you want to know the reason nobody respects pilots, they are arrogant, lazy, whining little primadonna bitches, and a disgrace to the profession

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I take it you won't be requiring a signed copy of my autobiography then, Kronos....:}

[thincatblue]

I'm trying to work out whether Kronos is a frustrated ppl wannabe or JVJ under a different pseudonym? What he/she does comes across as is a very mixed up puppy with some huge issues - maybe a visit to a happy farm might be in order Kronos? In the meantime I'll do some more wallowing with Shrike while enjoying my fat pay-cheque and wallet - anyone to join?

[The Claw]

Maxrated -The respect and appeal of being a pilot got chucked out the window the day that the first airline crew allowed themselves to be bullied into removing their shoes and belt in full public view by some imbecilic, semi-literate, pimpled adolescent security person, in the name of safety.



Wow, the two winged master race, I think that attitude is more likely what did it!? At least that guy has a job and that job entails keeping scum like you safe! Try taking your huge ego out on the people who gave the poor security personnal their orders!

[Fuzzy Lager]

I'm with Kronos on this one. Flying is not difficult, the family labrador can almost do it. As technology has improved the duties of the crew have been curtailed and the responsibility has been taken by the machine. Why? Because it does a better and safer job. Everything thats left is instructed through the POH and the MOP, just do what you are told. I mean seriously, what decisions to you get to make? Coffee of tea? Chicken or beef?

Flying a DC6 across the Atlantic with 4 twitchy engines all running lean of peak required skill, judgement and understanding and was worthy of respect. Watching a B738 fly you to Cape Town while you make sordid remarks about the hostie is easy, boring and unimpressive. You might think you are cool but thats about the extent of it.

Pilots are overrated, over respected and deserve no more pay that a man that drives an interlink truck to Cape Town.

Pilots are not glorified bus drivers, they are just bus drivers.

[RobinB]

Pirate, you miss my point - "skills etc" are not limited to pilots - no matter what your profession, one needs skills to perform - the more you have the better you are at your chosen career - the better you are, the more you get paid etc etc

;)

[Shrike200]

Shrike how you managed to turn this thread into a wallow of self pity and oh the idiotic fools in management...etc etc etc lots of ranting from Kronos

Calm yourself to a mild panic - I'm not saying pilots are rocket scientists (I, like quite a few other pilots around, happen to have started my working life as an engineer originally, and have thus had experience of another field of work to compare things to), but to be viewed in an often derogatory manner (along the lines of your little rant) by people who can make some pretty dodgy decisions themselves sometimes gets me down, especially when some of the answers are as clear as daylight. And do you believe that an MBA is somehow going to help me be a better pilot? Or are you just implying that I somehow don't do real work at the present, or didn't do any real work to get where I am now? Feel free to continue the baseless accusations, but if you want to get factual, then your assumptions about both me and the work we do are a poor start.

Edit to add: I had to go and read my original post again, just to check - where am I pitying myself?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

It's the watch, isn't it?

Would it help if I wore a bigger one? Perhaps a big sparkly hat too.....?

[CJ750]

Don't forget the Raybans:cool:

Big Watch Small "richard":}

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Speak for yourself, stumpy!:E

That only applies to limp wristed quiche sucking airline fops.

[Shrike200]

...limp wristed quiche sucking airline fops...

Now that is an all time winner! :E

[samjetblaster]

Thumbs up to Max rated. I myself having been virtually strip searched before boarding to operate a flight, know how well some people have no respect whatsoever for flight crew. We are not speaking of pay,perks etc..which a lot of people ramble on this thread..we are speaking here of common sense and basic respect. Once again well said Max rated, I totally agree with you.:ok:

[I.R.PIRATE]

Lets not forget a certain training outfit, that is currently running an ad campaign that uses the Ray Bans and the watch to lure prospective students.

Although truth be told, it is the same mob that previously copied a John Travolta posing next to one of his jets / TAG HAUER (IIRC) ad, by replacing him (JT) with their own CEO posing next to .....wait for it... a......CESSNA 172!!!

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Michael Birbeck]

Flying has lost its glamour and romance for Joe public but flying per se is still a deeply satisfying activity that calls for the best of a person and enhances a sense of self worth.

I am always deeply impressed by good pilots and want to be like them. In every sense, flying can be its own reward.

[oompilot]

This thread was started because some lazy snot nose kid was more interested in comparing a job with the opportunity to sleep. This should be more about were the youth are today then anything else.
If that’s all he could think about when he looked into the sharp end of one of the worlds most complex machines leave him and his friends to sleep were they want. The world wont miss them.