Hearing problems and flying the S92

[rotorknight]

Hello 92 drivers out there.
I am just wondering how many pilots that fly the 92 are suffering from hearing problems after a reasonable short time of flying the thing.
I have all the gadgets to try and protect my precious hearing(helmet.earpugs etc) but still after a full day of flying(6 hours),my ears are ringing and almost hurting.
How many of you suffer from the same problems:uhoh:

Cheers
rotorknight

[Rcdude]

You are not the only one rotorknight.
I started getting problems with tinnitus almost immediately after I started flying the S92.
It has not gotten worse than what I can live with, but I have heard a couple of pilots are about to lose their medical due to tinnitus, and this makes me worried.

[R44-pilot]

Crikey now that worrys me!

What sort of problems you gonna get flying in something less exotic than a S76? like a MD500 (heard there pretty loud) all day or Robbies??

I would of thought S76 was pretty good with sound proofing etc... only assuming as never even got near one of the damn things!

Does make me wonder about Robbies and such, I mean you can see sunlight through the door joins in Robinsons so there hardly an advert for sound proofing.......

[TiPwEiGhT]

I find the S92 uncomfortable after two flights/6 hours a day. I am using earplugs and DC headset, tried a helmet and noticed an improvement but is still not perfect. I tend to notice slight discomfort a few hours later in the evening, not painful, but just not right. Something needs to be done, but I don't Sikorsky are making much of an effort (I stand to be corrected).

TiP

[Rcdude]

I haven't flown the 76 or the 500, but I have 1200 hrs or something in the R22, and it's nowhere near as noisy as the S 92.
The Norwegian aeromedical institute made a survey concerning noise and vibrations in helicopters at the norwegian sector, and the results are very alarming to us S92 pilots.
I just hope Sikorsky will take this problem seriously!

[EESDL]

...........pardon...........?

[Martin1234]

The Norwegian aeromedical institute made a survey concerning noise and vibrations in helicopters at the norwegian sector

Where can you get hold of the results of the survey?

Thanks.

[Rcdude]

Here it is!
Flymedisinsk Institutt (http://www.flymed.no/index.php?action=page&article=2134462233&node=372)

[Martin1234]

Are there any other sources for cockpit noise levels in different helicopters apart from the one mentioned below? Anyone knows where I can get hold of it?

Gasaway DC. Noise levels in cockpits of aircraft during normal cruise and
considerations of auditory risk. Aviat Space Environ Med. 1986 Feb;57(2):103-12.

[bb in ca]

Is it apparent where the highest noise levels are coming from? engines/transmission/main rotor etc.

Anyone notice any benefit with a Bose noise cancelling headset or similar?

Is it purely a factor of decibels or is vibration a factor as well?

Cheers,
bb

[rotorknight]

Hi bb in ca,I think most of the noise comes from the rotor,cooling fans,and unfortunately I think a lot of the physical problems have to do with the vibrations as well.
I personally feel that I am sitting in front of the sound boxes at at a rock concert all the time:{.

[zoigberg]

I use musicians earplugs - ER25. Brilliant if you can afford them - they've saved my hearing i'm sure (i fly non rotary -sorry!). If you think you are really getting a problem i can't recommend them more highly. I got them after seeing a thread a while back

[busdriver02]

Interesting, I fly the HH-60 and haven't noticed any such dramatic noise problems.

[ptcpuller]

the problem is: heavy aircraft and only four blades.
The shockwave hitting the captain side is so strong, it feels like sitting close to a base drum.
ptcpuller

[Blackhawk9]

Can't speak from a pilots seat but the back of the S-92 is quieter than a Black Hawk, Chinook or even an AS332, most of the cockpit noise comes from the cooling fans,and yes the rotors and vibs, have any of the european operators had the CSN done to put the hushkits on the fans yet? and if so any noticable drop in noise?
Still not done yet here in Oz.
The main problem here is heat stress for the crew.....of S-76's and AS332's, Super Puma crews comeback after 4-5 hrs in 35oC + looking like been in a sauna, 92 crews happy with aircon, though the supposed high comfort seat could do with somemore padding!

[MD900 Explorer]

Rcdude

That is the link to the website. The link to the article is here (http://www.flymed.no/files/Helkroppsvibrasjoner%20og%20støy.pdf)

Of course unless your Norwegian is up to scratch then you will have trouble reading it. But you can block translate roughly if you use this link (http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=Norwegian&to=English) to translate it.. happy reading ;-)

MD :ok:

[Decredenza]

I can't read Norwegian but looking at the graphs it seems to have be 120 db at 16 Hz. (I could be wrong on that) That is quite loud.

Have any of the 92 pilots tried an ANC headset (like Bose, DC or Zulu)? They take out a lot of the low end frequencies to make the ride quieter. I know Bose has a 30 day free trial. It might be worth it. I put one in my MSA helmet and am really enjoying it.

[Bitmonx]

As far as I know ANC is not going to protect your hearing, it just cancels out the noise that you can hear. Lot of the sound waves enter through your skull and that is where a helmet is more efficient than a Headset.
I fly the AS350 with an MSA Gallet and sometimes I use earplugs to further lessen the noise.

[SASless]

Having lost most of my hi-freq hearing and some of the normal voice range and both aggravated by a roaring case of Tinnitus.....do everything you can to protect your hearing. Be aggressive in taking what preventative measures you can.

Almost two thousand hours of Chinook time before the days of good helmets and earphones got me early on.

If you find yourself running out of volume control on the interphone panel....you just might want to have a really good hearing test done. You will probably find the Hi-Freq range is suffering a loss.

At least now I have a good excuse for ignoring the Missus!:O

[NGPogue]

For what it's worth the US Army requires earplugs or CEP's under the flight helmet in the UH-60 because of the noise level. This is based on an occupational exposure to 85 db for 8 hours being considered hazardous. The noise level in the UH-60 is around 102 db. The SPH-4B and HGU-56 helmets reduce that to 90.6 db, and the SPH-4 reduces it to 95.1 db. The SPH-4/foam earplug combination reduces it to 70.4 db. The HGU-56 with CEP's reduces it to 71.1 db, and has the added advantage of making radio and ics easier to hear. Since the S-92 is kind of a cross between a Blackhawk and a CH-3E I would probably wear them were I flying one...

[bb in ca]

"Lot of the sound waves enter through your skull and that is where a helmet is more efficient than a Headset."

With any luck my extra thick skull will actually assist me for a change!

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,

in use with the belgian police helicopters and hopefully soon also in our squadron are ortoplastics.
The follwing link is only to give you the idea of an ortoplastic - it´s in german and not from the manufacture we might get ours from.
http://www.inear.de/files/phpyjVzYr.pdf

Systems you can get:

system made to fit your ear by making it specially for your ears.

specified sound proofing for the model you fly, i.e. the frequencys, which are produced by the bird are filtered out do to special drillings (gearbox, rotor, engines)

have inbuild earphones, so you can understand radiotransmissions etc.

could have inbuild microphone, so you can stick your head outside (winching) with no windnoises coming throug the mike.

I´ve heard the quality of the belgian police equipment and was stunned.
The mic took the speach from inside the ear!!!!

Greetings Flying Bull

[TwinHueyMan]

+1 vote for the noise protection advantage of CEPs. I have used them with a helmet for about 5 years and about a year ago got them installed in my headset for the "helmet not preferred" moments. The difference is clear as day, and they really do work on cutting down the crap getting into the ears.

Mike

[Flying Bull]

Hi Mike,
I think the ortoplastics are going a step further - allowing adaptation for the noise enviroment you´re working in.
The additional mic you can have makes the thing great for crewmembers, who stick their head out to give us the guidence we need in smal places or while winching.
With the pricing I found for CEPs, I think you can also afford ortoplastics - and have state of the art protection.
In case I find the appropiate homepage, I´ll post it hear.

Greetings Flying Bull

[Geoffersincornwall]

Have tried them and rejected them after a week of use. The skin in the ear where the plugs touched became sore and this compromised subsequent use. I know of 2 colleagues who are flying with hearing aids thanks to the excessive noise INSIDE the headset.

Where to next I wonder?

G

[SASless]

Probably accept the fact you will need a Brass Ear Trumpet at some point in your flying career I would say!

[MD900 Explorer]

The recommendations in the report are translated as follows:-

"VIBRATION (Bodily)

Vibration levels are below the action value for the majority of military and civilian helicopters that are measured and summed up to a specified flight. For S-92, however, is the vibration level equal measures the value of an offshore account. This means that there should be measures to reduce the vibration level, or reduce the flying time to get a less than 0.5 m/s2 ila. an 8-hour workinconstantly making improvements on their helicopters, but has not necessarily a primary focus on reducing noise and vibration exposure in flying personnel. Much of this work is to reduce wear on moving parts and the hull. One would think that the recent helicopter vibration has less impact on the flying personnel than the old models, but this is not always the case and may reflect some of the problem as mentioned above. g day. Regulation on protection against mechanical vibrations are not yet approved by the MLS, but it is possible to prevent by the frontrunner. Helicopter manufacturers are constantly making improvements on their helicopters, but has not necessarily a primary focus on reducing noise and vibration exposure in flying personnel. Much of this work is to reduce wear on moving parts and the hull. One would think that the recent helicopter vibration has less impact on the flying personnel than the old models, but this is not always the case and may reflect some of the problem as mentioned above.

New S-92 in relation to the Super Puma L2 is a good example of a helicopter type where a helicopter of a newer generation vibrates more than the "old" helicopter. Our measurements show that the Super Puma has 42% lower vibration level below 1000 feet in cruise 145 knots than the S-92.

NOISE (Inside the headset)

In many contexts it is desirable to be on the safe side. Although pilots use ear protection and it is carried out a noise-reduction measures in the S-92 is the measurement results closely over the rafters and upper action value. One is not in any way on the safe side, given that 85 dBA is a limit in relation to risk of developing hearing damage. Regulations recommends a 10 dBA lower value relative to the lower action value, which gives 70 dBA within ear pads as an ideal noise level in a helicopter cockpit for a comfortable workplace. This is the level we are not in the near today. Due to that there have been too little on this issue, NOK is because it lacks certification requirements that deal with."

Now that is a literal translation of the summary... it could i am sure be put into "Better" English.

It is also interesting to read that the researchers state that there is no industry standard with regards to health and safety to the levels of acceptable noise in the cockpit of a helicopter, wether it be vibrasional noise on the body or noise that is heard through a headset.

But it is comforting to note that Sikorsky have made an effort to put a thicker pane of glass on the commanders side to reduce the effect of "noise" upon him/her. But the researcher also reassures us that he is in no doubt sure that there will be guidelines for manufacturors to restrict the amount of noise in the cockpit in the future.

MD :(

[Rotorhead124]

I must say, after only a short exposure to the S-92A, it is the loudest work environment I know. I have so far tried DC headset, ALPHA helmet (Stock), ALPHA Modified with Oregon Aero Hush-Kit, ALPHA Helmet Stock ear-cups with GENTEX SPH-5 Ear seals, and have now added a set of CEP. Hopefully it will help.

I'm finding that by the end of a second trip 7-8 hours, I have the ICS turned up to MAX and still have to ask for repeats. This is the loudest helo I have ever been in. Much louder than the SK or even the Chinook! I'm sure that the cockpit proximity to the MRB tips and the 4-blade design are doing it. Every bit of glass and plexi in the front office is moving like a drum skin. The windshield must be moving in and out 0.5 cm with the passage of each blade (Roughly 16 Hz). It is an astounding acoustic assault. As I recall from my HFE (Human Factors In Engineering), the danger range for Whole Body Vibrations is in the 1-80 Hz range. That puts the S-92 Cockpit environment in the first quarter (linear) or middle of that range (logarithmically). I suspect that the sound pressure levels and acceleration limits are at or above the OSH safety standards... But what can you do?

[Paddyviking]

Recent developements introduced after gearbox mounting problems require us to cruise at reduced speeds which means using less torque
which has the added benefit of reduced vibration
If your company does not have this directive -- try keeping the torque closer to 70% rather than 80%, it adds a few mins to the flight but makes for a smoother ride
Helmet and CEP's seem to work better overall than any headset available

Pv

[Paul Chocks]

Busdriver - I used to fly the HH-60 too (maybe we know each other - its a small world!) and loved it, but its the noisiest helicopter I've ever flown - even with CEP's I was worried about my hearing decline.

[busdriver02]

Well, my only other experience is the Huey. Guess I just assumed helos are loud period.

[noooby]

Slightly Off Topic, but still kind of relevant. I remember when an audiologist came to the UK base I was working at to measure Helo cockpit noise levels.

Pilots were wanting company to splash out on Bose ANC headsets.

Audiologist agreed that noise levels were excessive, but said that Bose was not the way to go. They do cancel out low freq well, but evidently not high freq, and they don't have very good clamping pressure for passive attenuation.

His opinion was that a helmet was best, and a good DC headset (best clamping pressure he said) with GOOD ear plugs. Just crank up the radio volume to hear it.

I use ER-4P earphones from Etymotic Research for audio enjoyment, and they have 25dB passive attenuation. If their earphones are anything to go by, then their earplugs should be fantastic.

They might be expensive, but you only have two ears!

[Jørgen Staffeldt]

Hi,

I'm currently flying the S-92. Vibration is - in my view - the biggest problem, because of the impact on the hearing.

As Health and Safety rep. for the Pilots at my base and AAP IFALPA rep for Norway (Norsk Flygerforbund - Norwegian ALPA) I'm about to give a speech on Noise and Vibration in Helicopters at the end of April to a Flight Safety Forum.
The current speed restriction from Sikorsky helps....
70% torque is good...
6 AVC's are better than 3....some times.
....but in the hangar - only AC - and the cockpit screen cooler fans running, 110 dB has been measured.....OUTSIDE the S-92!!
Hush kit is available (2-3 dB as I recall, correct me)

I'm very interested in :

- your type of hearing protection equipment flying the S-92 and other large helicopters
- your experience on the equipment (yearly flying hrs, torque setting,S-92..)
- do you have tendency to - or do you have tinnitus? Any corrolated hearingloss?
- links to scientific research (I do have the Norwegian ones and the one made in Southhampton back in 1988)
- your thoughts on how to solve the problems

j.staffeldt - at - gmail.com

If will - ofcourse - respect your privacy, and I do not need any personal information.
Just trying to get an overall picture, because everybody is talking about it, and not many are doing something about it.

Best regards

Jørgen Staffeldt
Captain S-92
Bergen

[Bertie Thruster]

The new "yellow hatters"; pipe, slippers.......and hearing aid?

[TiPwEiGhT]

Does anybody have any information on the HUSH kit Sikorsky offer for the S-92? Also does anyone have any experience flying with it installed?

Many thanks,

TiP:ugh:

[parabellum]

Anecdotal only. It was the main rotor gear box on the WS55 Series 3, right behind my head, that did for my hearing, after only fifteen months on type. My AME told me that even if I had wanted to go on flying after age sixty I would probably fail the hearing test.

[rotorknight]

It is finally taken up in Norway,albeit by the newspapers,so lets see if something will be done now.
Lots of coverage(in Norwegian) in Dagbladet.no - forsiden (http://www.dagbladet.no) from this week.

rotorknight

[DTibbals53]

Good excuse with the Missus

Exactly, SASLess! My problem is, I can never remember which ear I told her has the worst hearing loss. ;)

After 2,100 hours in CH-53s, I can tell you the noise primarily comes from the transmission. I can only wish we had active noise reduction in those days.

[Rotorhead124]

Finally found a combination that works. Gallet Helmet with Oregon Aero Hush Kit installed, Zeta Liner, and CEP with custom moulded ear plugs. Can't even hear the APU starting up. Sweet silence. It also helps to open the left cockpit window when hoisting, to let the pressure waves escape!

[griffothefog]

As an aside to that.... Can you fail a medical (under 60) for high pitch hearing loss? (ICAO).
Ive been told by my AME that my high side is below limits, but he still issues the cert! :D

Sorry for thread creep.

GTF.

[Geoffersincornwall]

AFAIK helicopter crews are allowed some latitude because we wear headsets and can crank up the volume.

G. :ok:

[C.C.C.]

UK CAA JAA Class 1 Hearing Standards are here - Audio - JAR Class 1 Hearing Standards | Medical | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=533)
However the hearing of experienced pilots at re-certification can be acceptable even if worse than the levels above, as JAR-FCL 3 Appendix 16 to Subparts B and C, paragraph 2 (b) states that: ‘If satisfactory hearing in a noise field corresponding to normal flight deck working conditions during all phases of flight can be demonstrated, recertification may be considered by the AMS (Aeromedical Section)’. This will usually take the form of a flight (real or simulated) with a training captain or instructor who reports that all tasks involving hearing were performed satisfactorily.I have had to perform this hearing check on a CPL(H) student after an operation on his ears, which was satisfactory

The hearing loss that I and others flying the S92A have suffered is above 3000Hz thus currently no medical restrictions.

[212man]

Searching for this thread to try and find the Norwegian report, I find the link given on page one doesn't seem to take you to an actual report: Forskning (http://www.flymed.no/index.php?action=page&article=2134462233&node=372)

Can a Norwegian speaker help? I found an index of publications but nothing that seemed relevant.

Thanks...

[500e]

Hearing Loss in Civilian Airline and Helicopter Pilots Compared to Air Traffic Control Personnel - Transport Research International Documentation - TRID (http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=925032)

Analysis of Helicopter Sound for the Development of A New Generation Active Headset (Conference Paper by Thomas L Lagö, Sven Johansson, Per-Anders Hellström) - Electronic Research Archive @ Blekinge Institute of Technology (BTH) (http://www.bth.se/fou/forskinfo.nsf/all/f05182f873f85767c12568a3002caa31)
Any help

[212man]

500e, thanks but I thought there was a specific study for the S-92 referenced, following concerns by the Norwegian pilot union.

[SASless]

Being an active member of the Brass Ear Trumpet Brigade.....hearing loss is no fun.

Too many hours in the cab of a Wokka with antiquated hearing protection (or none at all) doomed me early on...and now I pay the penalty.

The real problem with a loss of High Frequency hearing is the increasing problem with differeniation....all consenants sound the same...b,c,d, t, v, z's....all blend together and if they come from cute wee kiddies or attractive young women (higher pitched voices)....they really blend together.

Throw in the clatter of beer mugs on granite....tinkling of silverware.....some background music...and the chatter of the throng....and it is lip reading time.

Throw in a good dose of Tinnitus....and forget ever having some Peace and Quiet....wonder why some old Men get cranky?

If you get to where you need "special" tests to keep your medical....you should be looking more towards finding a "Special Ed" Teacher to marry rather than struggling to keep your medical.

A note for those who think cranking the volume knob up is a cure....at some point you max out on the headset volume and the audio control box volume....and you still cannot understand what is being said. If you are using more volume.....you have a hearing problem that has nothing to do with sheer volume....but rather a differeniation problem....and volume shall not cure that.

Take care of your hearing....but know when to make the decision re which is more important....retaining your ability to hear or earning a paycheck by flying for a living.

[212man]

SAS, thanks for the concern but I'm not worried about hearing loss from the S-92 (I think the AS332 did a pretty good job of that on its own!) It's a purely technical interest in relation to how ANR equipment functions.

[Ian Corrigible]

212man - Try here: Whole-Body Vibration Noise Levels In The Cockpit - Jan Ivar Kåsin, November 2008 (http://www.nho.no/getfile.php/Whole%20body%20vibration%20and%20noise(1).pdf). The S-92 specific section is pp14-22.

I/C

[Gaspode the Dog]

Pardon!!!

Sorry... I had to say it.:)

[SASless]

212....being a dull third grader on this topic....I always wondered how the ANR system "eliminates" noise. If you are sat next to a 350db transmission (picking a number out of the air here...but suggesting really really loud)...it would seem to me the screaming din remains even if you magically do not "hear" it anymore.

[212man]

Thanks Ian - just what I was after. I saw the title listed but hadn't realised it was the one!

[Rotorhead124]

If you are sat next to a 350db transmission

:eek: Unlikely to be at 350 dB - it's Logarithmic in the way it goes up. every 3 dB is DOUBLE the power, so 103 dB is twice the energy of 100 dB. 350 dB would turn you into a 'Pink Mist.' Even the LRAD Acoustic Weapon has a maximum continuous volume: 162dB (you don't want to hear that!) :sad:

120 dB = Threshold of discomfort
130 dB = Threshold of Pain
140 dB = Jet Aircraft (Full Power) at 50m

Assumption: The maximum sound pressure is 194 dBSPL that cannot be exceeded because the average air pressure of 101325 Pa. L = 20 × log (101325 / 0.00002) = 194 dB. RMS value is not peak value.
A typical false statement: "No noise levels can exceed 194 dB ever". Is the end at 194 dB? In addition to this perception threshold is discussed more often a physical limit to 194 dB. Sound is nothing more than a minor disturbance of air pressure and 194 dB is theoretically the same as the disturbance itself. It must be distorted. Even louder noise is possible, but much distorted". (Chaos).

This high sound pressure will break all measurement microphones and human beings are completely torn when they are close to the center of a nuclear explosion. No hearing protection (ear muffs or ear plugs) can help you there.

These madness sound levels will never be measured but only estimated or calculated. :ouch:

But it is true. the S-92 is awesomely loud in the front office, especially with the door open in the SAR role. :uhoh:

[Shell Management]

I can recommend a flying helmet with in-ear CEPs.

Do you know if there have been any measurements with door opened and closed?

Do you know how many extra dBs with the door open?

[rotorknight]

Dear mister SM,

I read somewhere else as well that you recommended wearing safety glasses in the cockpit.I hope for all the helicopter pilots out there,that you hold a function far away from being involved into what WE should wear or use.
The 92 should be redesigned,simple as that.
SK should wake up and realize that we are living in 2011,soon 2012,and that the times of extreme vibrations and retarded amounts of noise in a helicopter should have been left in the last century

end of rant,

rotorknight

[Shell Management]

It is the employers responsibility to protect his employees from noise, not an aircraft manufacturers as there are no certification requirements on this.

[Paddyviking]

Car manufacturers have a responsibility to produce safe cars that are not hazardous for the driver to drive
Why not have similar standards for the aviation industry :confused:
Imagine a buss driver wearing hearing protection ?

just my pennies worth

Pv

[Shell Management]

They are safe - this is a matter of health.

[ec155mech]

SM, that's true, BUT the operators fly the helicopters that the Oil companies fancy. see AW139, was never designed for offshore flying. and is crumbling under the unexpected pressure that continuous offshore exposure has given it. being in the industry.

one ,at times, gets the idea that the only reason companies choose a certain type. relates to the big boys toys syndrome. everyone else has this shiny new helicopter so it must be fantastic. when the opposite is often the case. version 1.0 snags. lack of spares = low availability.

back to the issue at hand, havent been so (un)fortunate to have a flight in a S92 but have been in the cockpit when avionics is on. and its unbelievable loud.

and if the Oil companies are so interested in safety. they would focus of the working environment of the people that fly them back and forth as well as the safety equipment of the helicopter.

noisy environment = fatigue = faults = accidents.

[Shell Management]

The AW139 was never designed for offhore ops? Rubbish just look at the power, windows, raft locations, high rotors etc etc

[Paddyviking]

Noise and vibration reduction is biased in favour of the pax who travel in the back once or twice a month
whilst we up front we travel back and forth each day
I wonder where oil company/manufactuers priorities lie ??

S92 jockie

[squib66]

Noise and vibration reduction is biased in favour of the pax who travel in the back once or twice a month


I thought the worst vibration on the 92 was in or near the back row.

[ec155mech]

SM just because the offshore industry has found use for it. doesn't mean that it was the primary design area. from what I have been told from several Agusta staff. The 139 was originally designed to do law enforcement and VIP. and to fly maybe 3-500 hours a year.

[andi.sch]

As paddyviking said: Confort is reserved for pax. I drive a VIP EC155 and it's lounge-quiet in the back. The (separated) cockpit is a different story: rotors, fans, wind noise, cold (to get decent temperatures in the front you have to boil the pax alive) and hard seats. And don't even dare to turn on the heat, it's like having a third engine running in the cockpit, but only noise-wise)

[heli1]

What crap EC155.How can you seriously suggest the AW139 was only meant for VIP and police ops !.Aren't you mixing it up with the stretch EC155.....now that does have a limited market.
The AW139 was developed as a bigger and better Bell 412 replacement for all roles...and has succeeded handsome I would say with sales, now approaching the 600 mark.

[ec155mech]

Heli1 I'm only saying what I was told by Agusta people. where they have their information from I can only guess.

fact is though although being widely sold. it has some major flaws.
maint. is really heavy and time consuming.\
support on it is slow > IAW the people I've been talking to.
not to mention the tail rotor problems

Im sure there are pro's and con's as with other helicopters. but point is. IMO there are better options out there.

[Gaspode the Dog]

Flying helmets offer protection and noise attenuation, another good reason for using them.

[rotorknight]

Staying in bed every working day,offers the ultimate protection against banging your head,and you get rid of the noise at the same time,and if you are a lonely fellow/lady you do not even have to suffer from vibrations either.
Man I should have thought about that before :hmm:

good weekend to you all

an ex 92 jockey :ok:

[SASless]

Rotorhead.....

If you are sat next to a 350db transmission (picking a number out of the air here...but suggesting really really loud)...


Anyone with firsthand experience with a Chinook Cockpit knows what I mean by "really really loud"!

All that din does not magically disappear with noise cancelling earphones.

[Roadhouse]

Good Day Everyone;

I've been flying the S-92 for about 1300 hours. The first 800 was using a Bose Aviation X headset. Besides going through about twice as many batteries as it did in an S-61 or AS-332, it worked fine.

Last summer I started wearing a Gallet LH-250 with CEP. Since then I notice the noise level is quite a bit higher, especially in the low frequency range generated by the rotor system. (It is quite a bit louder in the right seat than the left seat too.)

High noise levels in the S-92 is common knowledge and I'm wondering what other S-92 pilots are wearing for sound protection and how it is working out for you. Helmet, headset, ANR, CEP, combinations....

Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated.

RH

[212man]

We've been using Senheissers with ANR and aircraft power source, with no complaint, for 5 years. We are now transitioning to Alpha helmets with ANR - too soon for feedback

[Paddyviking]

We use Bose A20 headsets, Gallet LH250's fitted with CEP's and others modified with the Bose A20 system -- these are the most common in use here with 100+ pilots.
Of course there are one or two other types in use but the above have been adopted by the company as they seem to be the most effective.
It seems to be very much what suits the individual pilot, for me I use Gallet helmet with CEP's as I get better radio reception.
I would love to hear if there could be a system that incorporates CEP with the Bose ANR to get the best of both

Regards

Pv

[MEMORESTO]

This FAA site Aircraft Noise Levels (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/apl/noise_emissions/aircraft_noise_levels/) Appendix 10 and 11 provides the noise ratings of most helicopters. Nonetheless, it would be wise to get a db meter and check it out for yourself. In the past we built and tested rocket engines and as such measured the db levels and then had head sets made specifically for the noise environment. The cost was about $300 per set but none of us have hearing issues, so well wort it.

[onemorepilot]

The earplug QP100eX will soon be tested in a helicopter cockpit. The plug was primarily aimed for offshoreworkers in an noisy environment, but might be efficient for pilots.

Google QP100eX and you will find interesting data regarding the earplug. Built in ANR, dosimeter that records the amount of noise with a microphone inside the earcanal and built in microphone for speak (no need for mouth microphone).

OMP

[Roadhouse]

Thank you for the replies and information. Yes, I think to a point individual preferences are important. When I've finished my research, I'll post it here for all.

RH

[Roadhouse]

We are investigating the Bose setup out of Norway.

Does anyone out there have experience with the Merit Apparel ANR setup in the Gallet?

Thanks,

RH

[fly4cash-ride4fun]

I use a flight helmet, with CEP and molded earplugs from westone.com they make them specifically to adapt to the CEP. Many places around the US to get the molds poured, listed on thier website.

4000 hours in H-60 an S-61, and no hearing problems to date.

[Rotorhead124]

:sad: I have officially become a casualty of the S-92A (SAR Config) acoustic war. After about two years flying it in the SAR config, I was rewarded with strong tinnitus, and hearing loss above 6 kHz. So what is the 'magic combination of Helmet/ANR/CEP/Ear-Plugs that will make this outrageously loud cockpit acoustically safe for those who have to fly it? :confused: :eek:

There are going to be many hard-of-hearing S-92 veterans in the not so distant future!:ugh::ugh:

Tried ALPHA helmet with upgrades, currently GALLET 250 with CEP and custom ear moulds. :ooh:

Is there a good Helmet / ANR solution??? Money is no object.

[ILOVESMURFS]

Bonjour Rotor124,

First let me say that English is not my first language. Many friends say I barely can speak it. So wordalogy may be lacking. Beer with me.

I am a fairly new pilot who has just been told that there may be a chance i can fly some S&R very soon but you have now made me Wonder as you are one of the first i have read about that is not flying the new Sikorsky model now.

So, to help in my choice is it able to get some more détails from you and a number of issues. A little history first, if possible you can answer, thèse will aid me in my choice to carry out a career in S&R in the S92.

How long have you be flying in cockpit?
Hours total and years?
Have you flown loud helo’s before….I once saw a 214ST and thought that was 2 as loud as the model of yours?
Did you have a exteinsive carreer that gave early damage? Some of thèse vertical rep giuys spend 10 hours a day oustide.

Relating to your currrent position…. If damage was done in two years you guys must fly hard. How many mission a day? How many hours with that big S&R door open? Do you do multiple missions daily? Is hover time long? Average hours in a month / week? Is there a notoceable increase with S&R door open rather closed?

I hope you may aid in my quieries as I would not want to loose my Herring! I wish you many joyful days ahead.
Are others in your S&R coleques reporting same.

ILS – I Love Smurfs!

[Capt.Gonzo]

Hi,
I just wonder if any of you uses ear plugs and head set or ear plugs and helmet together?
Is it common to use both?
Will this eventually solve the problem?

[Horror box]

I have flown a bit over 3000 Hrs in the S92. The last 1000 approx using a Gallet helmet and ear normal plugs instead of the Gallet earplugs with speakers. I fly around 700 hrs a year up to about 7 hrs a day some days. I have no hearing problems at all. No tinnitus or major hearing loss since using the helmet. There was some hearing loss before, but it has not developed at all since. I have regular hearing tests to check. Not everyone likes wearing a helmet for comfort reasons, but I find it very comfortable and easy to use. It is a lot more comfortable than the old military Mk 4 I used earlier.

[Brilliant Stuff]

The Belgian Police use CEPs because of the threat of loosing their hearing but they are used in combination with wearing a helmet.

I believe the helmet CEP combo is the way forward and if you can't have the CEPs at least have a helmet because that's is what is stopping the noise getting into your head.... This what I have garnered.

At the moment you don't see to be able to buy CEPs in the UK which fit under the helemet and plug into the helmet because Headset Services have given up on the one's they offered because they could not stand the abuse of wear and tear.

The Danes use these (http://www.invisiocommunications.com/products/headsets.aspx) they will be on my shopping list next.

[ILOVESMURFS]

Rotorhead124,

Possibility you answer #78 post. It would prove of useful for us just beginning on this heli.

Merci!

[Ian Corrigible]

Interesting news snippet in the corner of this week's show dailys:

Sikorsky S-92 helicopters to receive new Rockwell Collins display
Rockwell Collins (https://www.rockwellcollins.com/sitecore/content/Data/News/2014_Cal_Year/GS/FY14GSNR21-S92displays.aspx) Feb. 25, 2014

The Sikorsky S-92 helicopter will feature new Rockwell Collins MFD-268P2B MFDs enabling growth to capabilities that will enhance situational awareness and flight safety...

...Benefits of the new MFD-268P2B include:

• Greater than 14 decibel reduction in acoustic noise

:eek:

I/C

[nocarsgo]

That'd be great, how does an mfd reduce noise though

[Hilife]

The current version is very noisy and the new unit has an internal cooling fan which is considerably quieter.

[SimonK]

Maybe I'm half deaf anyway, but I use an ANR headset which does the trick for me on the 92, having used CEPs in the military I much prefer ANR for comfort reasons alone. I could just cope with CEPs for a couple of hours sortie in the military, but I don't think I could cope with 7 hours offshore desperately trying to wiggle them into a comfortable position. Look forward to the new MFDs though :)

[Um... lifting...]

Decibels aren't additive, they're logarithmic, so this makes no sense at all.

You can't add or remove a component and say it adds or removes 14 dB under all conditions. An addition of 14 dB means you're multiplying the total sound energy by about 3.75 times.

It might add or remove 14 dB on ground with no engines running, but in flight it probably doesn't change measured dB level at all. If the thing adds 14 dB in flight, it would be like putting a third engine in your lap.

[aa777888]

...but in flight it probably doesn't change measured dB level at all.

Almost certainly this, i.e. they reduced the cooling fan noise for the unit itself, but that will amount to the proverbial fart in a windstorm in terms of overall cockpit noise in flight.

[Um... lifting...]

proverbial fart in a windstorm

Every word a brushstroke, every sentence a work of art.

[tucumseh]

Having developed an analog ANR system for Sea King AEW that brought noise dose down to 84dB(A), in 2000 MoD completed the 2nd phase, Digital ANR, that brought it down to 73dB(A); well within the anticipated (at the time) legal limit. That limit was delayed by many years but I believe it is now in force.

Any ANR system has to be tailored for the noise in that particular aircraft; and very often that Mark of aircraft or a particular seat in the aircraft. So, the Analog ANR designed for Sea King happened to work, by sheer luck, in Sea Harrier; but was absolutely useless in Lynx. The damaging noise came from different sources and at different frequencies.

While damaging noise is the primary concern, annoying noise is too. In the Sea King, the radar transmitter whining away in your ear.

With the digital system, the idea was before flying you plug your helmet in to a work station and simply press the button appropriate to your aircraft/mark and, occasionally, seat. It blew an EPROM. (The pilot in AEW received a very different noise from Observers; both damaging). I understand this programme was halted after successful initial trials, but stand ready to be corrected.

Another feature of this programme was to avoid pages of mind boggling decibel notation, and simply express the performance in allowable flying hours per year. ANR allowed Mk2 aircrew to go from 59 (far too low) to 320 (about right). But 600 was required for the ASaC Mk7. Litigation you see.

More recently, I've had cause to speak to Bose about their system. It is far too simplistic. Like most, it is a simple broadband noise reducer, which leaves aircrew short on audio cues. That is fine in the back of an armoured vehicle or for passengers in the aircraft, but not aircrew who rely on speech intelligibility and resistance to fatigue. The speech intelligibilty tests and trials were very complex and comprehensive.

My recommendation. Always ask if the system you are considering has been cleared for your aircraft.

An oddball.... In addition to it being an Aircrew Equipment Assembly, with ANR, especially aircraft powered, the helmet becomes part of the comms sub-system. It sits within the TEMPEST boundary, if you're flying such a beast. What ANR also does is expose design weaknesses in other areas; typically the quality of audio amplifiers in the intercom and the transducers in existing helmets. On the latter, the ones MoD used cost about £10 each; the best were French at about £1k each. MoD resisted.....but you get what you pay for. Interesting topic.

[Sikorsky92]

i am freshman of s92,i feel more viberation,but for the noise i feel it is normal and aceptable.hope you can find advanced headset.

[Wify]

Hi
I would like to hear from anyone who has lost their medical due to tinnitus and/or NIHL flying the S92. I am trying to determine how prevalent the condition is and how pilots have dealt with the aftermath. Thanks

[Vertical Freedom]

Hey Wifi......suffer in silence, don't tell anyone :ooh: the more info You give 'em the more power they have to use against You :mad:

[jimf671]

Wify, can I suggest that as a new poster with little in your profile and no detail of the background in your post, you might struggle to get a worthwhile set of replies.

The red 'Journalist' warning lamp will be lit in most cockpits.

[LRP]

nothing good can come from sharing that kind of information with an AME.

[rotorfan]

I find this interesting, as I've had the condition for 30 years+ (working in industrial environments, flying rotary/fixed, racing motocross, rock concerts, etc.). It's only noticeable when the ambient noise level is way down, but completely imperceptible in a cockpit. In the medical examiner's quiet area, I can still hear his hearing test. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to mask the wife's voice. :} How did this lead to the loss of a medical? In other words, how does it prevent you from performing flight crew duties?

[Fareastdriver]

You have got to be pretty deaf to not be able to fly. I would suggest the problem is from another source than that of the S92.

[lowfat]

never mind the deafness its the detached retina im worried about...

[LRP]

I find this interesting, as I've had the condition for 30 years+ (working in industrial environments, flying rotary/fixed, racing motocross, rock concerts, etc.). It's only noticeable when the ambient noise level is way down, but completely imperceptible in a cockpit. In the medical examiner's quite area, I can still hear his hearing test. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to mask the wife's voice. :} How did this lead to the loss of a medical? In other words, how does it prevent you from performing flight crew duties?
It comes from sharing that information with your AME. Fill out the form truthfully, take the tests, move on. Since I'm not an MD, I don't list things that I think could be wrong with me. I let the doctor perform the physical and determine if I'm healthy enough to fly.

[gpzz]

Not a current pilot but an enthusiast and with many hearing probs due to playing live music for years.
I now must wear moulded earplugs even in the car. Cuts out all the clatter and makes speech etc and radio comms very easy to hear but you have to turn it up a bit to penetrated the plugs...works a charm.
Hope that's of some help to anyone.

[Patientpilot]

Hi all.

Ive started flying the 92 about 4 weeks ago, and after just 50 hours my right ear is constantly sore after flying 6-7 hours a day.
Im using a Bose A20.

I see on the topic it has been a while since the last post. Any new tips/Technology I can maybe try?
Really disappointed after wanting to fly offshore my whole career, and now that I finally got a 92 job the ear problem...

I dont mind getting a helmet if that will solve the problem. But dont want to invest +$2000 on a helmet and not solve the problem.

Your tips will be appreciated.

[Hot_LZ]

Set those A-20 aside! Absolutely no passive protection and the active element will not handle the S92. I used the A20 before I was issued a company headset many years ago and I could feel the mechanism jumping about inside.

You need to do research into a headset that can offer as much passive protection as possible. But from personal experience the problem isn’t the ‘noise’ but the shockwave that the advancing blade sends into the right side of the aircraft and cockpit. I would recommend a helmet but I understand that this can be financially restrictive for some people. Try and limit the noise entering the ear and the shockwave resonating through the skill bone. My 10 cents worth.

LZ

[tu154]

Agree on the Bose A20. Compared the A20 to the Peltor CH5 and went back to the CH5. Much better protection I felt with the CH5, though obviously subjective.

[helicrazi]

CH5 is pretty good, baseball cap helps a bit with it, much better with something on the skull.

[aa777888]

Not an S92 pilot, but I've been very impressed with the DC ONE X. The data sheet says 30dB at 150Hz with ANC turned on, and it's got enough passive protection that I've occasionally forgotten to turn on the active noise cancellation.

[Jimmy.]

After almost 3000h in 6 years flying the S-92 using a A20, I'm quite happy with them. But a few times (very few) I perceived in my right ear what could be the shockwave LZ described. Pressing the ear cuff a little bit and waiting some seconds tends to solve the problem in my experience.

[Nineteen84]

Can anyone confirm if any of the UK operators specifically forbid wearing a helmet? I read in an old post that Bristow did not allow helmets due to the perception from the pax

[Blackhawk9]

Something that was brought up at Heli Expo a couple of years ago , one of the Sikorsky engineers in the S-92 tech briefing was complaining various improvements asked for by users (Pilots/Engineers) after much development and cost were not being acquired by operators (Helo operators/lease Companies), one he mentioned was hush kits for the cockpit which drops cockpit noise by approx 20 dB, no operator had ordered them despite constant complaints from pilots world wide of the noise , maybe pilot unions need to push more for these improvements to be incorporated.

[bigglesbutler]

Whilst this won't affect the noise from sound hitting the head in I have "improved" on my headset somewhat. Caveat, this is not an advertisement for a manufacturer it is only my journey which has worked out well.

I flew the 332 and 225 with the noise generators directly above my head.
I bought a Lightspeed Zulu as the earcup material is supposedly made of Magnesium and thus more noise attenuating but I then decided to improve on this with a sheet of dynamat (car door insulation) and my HSE rep measured the sound and was shocked at how low the noise was.
I also wear 9dB earplugs under my headset which reduces the high pitch hiss from ANR and avionics, they are moulded silicone plugs with inserts that can vary the noise attenuation. I recently found a small blob of blue tack clears the dirt off and returns the earplug to new clarity.


So ladies and Gents, your hearing is valuable please protect it, research and use products that will help you do so and innovate where needed.

Safe flights

Si

[Heliflyger]

Had my first flight back in the 92 yesterday after 11 years in 225 and 332 doing mostly SAR. Wearing a Gallet helmet with Bose anr combined with cep, it wasn’t as bad as I remembered..

[tu154]

Can anyone confirm if any of the UK operators specifically forbid wearing a helmet? I read in an old post that Bristow did not allow helmets due to the perception from the pax

I’m not aware of any of the aberdeen operators that permit use of a helmet other than for SAR. The excuse varies depending on the operator.

[Blackhawk9]

I’m not aware of any of the aberdeen operators that permit use of a helmet other than for SAR. The excuse varies depending on the operator.

Thank god that doesn't apply in Australia, the operators here leave that up to the pilot, not enforce petty rules, probably 1/4 of the pilots I know wear helmets, mostly Alpha's but some Gentex and a couple of Gallet, headsets , Noise cancelling David Clarks with gel ear cups fitted to aircraft , most private head sets Bose and Lightspeed.

[Hot_LZ]

I’m not aware of any of the aberdeen operators that permit use of a helmet other than for SAR. The excuse varies depending on the operator.

Cost - they fear that pilots will want the company to pay for helmets.

LZ

[SpindleBob]

I expect it is cost - The fear of pilots coming back to them in 20 years time saying that they've ruined our hearing and we weren't provided with good enough hearing protection. I can't see a cynical argument beyond that. We all know Dave Clarks are comfortable but rubbish. The early noise cancelling headsets made you feel better, but were letting all the damage through. I certainly don't want to be wearing a helmet for 7 hours - Tried one for a few flights and found it OK, but not very comfortable. And I cannot see any way that the noise attenuation would be as good as a modern headset.

I don't see conspiracy theories as helpful. Its probable that the operators just have to provide good quality hearing protection and I'm not particularly surprised if that Peltor headset is the best one they can find.