Flybe MPL [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

MVE

22nd Feb 2009, 09:55

An ATPL is not a CPL/IR! Current modular and intergrated schemes train you to CPL flying standards with IR and ATPL ground subjects (frozen ATPL). In the old days you would complete a CPL flying course, an IR flying course and then sit the CPL ground subjects. When you reached the minimum flying hours/experience requirements for the ATPL you would sit the ATPL ground exams. Later the CAA decided that you could sit the ATPL ground subjects before having the required hours for the ATPL and the FROZEN ATPL was born.

The MPL will be the equivalent of a CPL/IR with ATPL ground subjects i.e. a Frozen ATPL. Once you reach the minimum Flying experience standards you will be able to apply for the full ATPL in just the same way that you would have done if you were unfreezing your frozen ATPL on the old schemes.The only difference being that once you complete an MPL course you will only be allowed to fly the type of commercial aircraft you were trained on but as you will complete this kind of course with a reasonable chance of a job with the company that 'sponsors' you. Once you are issued with your ATPL the world is your oyster!:ok:

PS The requirements for unfreezing are approz 1500 hours experience, so no outside training would help, that said it is an experience requirement mostly so some single piston flying etc would help, check the Lasors/CAA website for full requirements.

Finals19

22nd Feb 2009, 10:01

What is the lead time for training on these MPL's? In the current climate, you might be waiting around for a while before you get on the line once qualified. Am I right in understanding that FTE have guys currently waiting to go? No new hiring from Flybe at the moment apparently.

MVE

22nd Feb 2009, 10:10

The final half of the training is done with the airline or its trainer in the simulator, so once completed you are ready to fly the aircraft, there will more than likely be no leadtime. Jerex do have dacets ready trained and Flybe take them as they need them. Whilst Flybe are not actively recruiting publicaly there are still the odd few Jerez cadets on the courses running now and in the future.
If I was looking to be a Pilot and hadn't yet started my training I would try and get on an MPL scheme or failing that, wait a good 6 months and save like mad before starting any commercial pilot course. Pretty soon the only 'airline' (and I use that term very loosely!) recruiting will be Ryanair and lets face it, they are soon going to be relying on their type rating courses and selection costs for their profits. So unless you fancy working for that kind of outfit, wait and save!:=

INNflight

22nd Feb 2009, 11:17

I'll send some hate mail to Brussels if it's gonna be easy-cheesie to convert a MPL to a JAA CPL ME IR (aka fATPL), considering you have to go through hell to convert a FAA CPL ME IR to oh-so-high JAA standards :mad:

Good luck though to whoever gets this working, seems like the back-up may be a wee bit better than those Sterling guys had.

F/O UFO

22nd Feb 2009, 11:25

Thankyou, this has cleared alot up.

One question; you say you cannot fly any other type of aircraft other than that which you were trained on (in the flybe case the q400)- is this not the same as with a fATPL or ATPL where type rating is required?

Also presumably you can still fly a whole host of GA planes?

Are FTE and Flybe running this scheme simply to save money?

Malta_Flyer

22nd Feb 2009, 11:54

As far as I know, holders of the MPL (Multi-Pilot Licence) are only allowed to fly in a Multi-Crew Environment (hence the name). Therefore they will not be licenced to fly any single pilot aircraft (including most of the GA fleet), without the necessary conversions to the standard CPL.

Groundloop

22nd Feb 2009, 17:56

I'll send some hate mail to Brussels if it's gonna be easy-cheesie to convert a MPL to a JAA CPL ME IR (aka fATPL), considering you have to go through hell to convert a FAA CPL ME IR to oh-so-high JAA standards

It will be a JAA MPL ie the 14 written examinations are exactly the same for the fATPL and an MPL. It is the flying/sim time that is different (assuming that it the part you were referring to when talking about converting from an FAA CPL).

F/O UFO

22nd Feb 2009, 21:20

thanks. so, how many hours flight time does it take for your MPL to effectivly become a fATPL?

Celtic Pilot

22nd Feb 2009, 21:41

cant really see the MPL catching on...

There arent many airlines showing much interest at the moment apart from Flybe...

But then again, as HVE stated once you have the APTL the world is your oyster... all remains to be seen how it goes....

Adios

22nd Feb 2009, 22:03

Malta Flyer,

An MPL holder could get a JAA PPL quite easily. They'd probably just need to do a few hours training and take a check ride. They could then take a standard 25 hour JAA CPL course and test flight, to obtain a CPL. They could hire GA aircraft for solo flying with the PPL. They could get paid to fly GA aircraft as a single pilot with the CPL. They could add an ME with a standard 6 hour course.

MPL is not hugely different than fATPL. It spends little time focusing on building competence for single pilot GA aircraft and instead focuses earlier on building competency in multi-pilot ops on turbine engine types. The main concern is therefore, the smaller number of hours an MPL student gets in the air and as PIC, since the multi-pilot training is done in sims where two students can sit front seat. The second concern is the amount of sim time will result in less air sense and air experience. I would think that by 1500 hours, MPL pilots will have all of this, but they will be leaps and bounds ahead of fATPL holders on a Type Rating course.

If they ever do find themselves seeking a second job before they get to 1500 hours, they will have to take more training, probably to get the PPL and then CPL (they'll have an IR and probably a turbine ME already). This would give them an fATPL, but due to their high multi-crew sim time and type rating, they will be extremely competent in an airline sim assessment.

greyb33

23rd Feb 2009, 01:56

Are fte just selecting 6 candiates from people who have already applied to fte or will a special application system specifically for the flybe scheme be set up ?

F/O UFO

23rd Feb 2009, 21:16

Special assesment. It has not been launched yet

student88

23rd Feb 2009, 22:28

It has just been launched.

You can apply here:
FTE:: (http://www.ftejerez.com/page.php?page_name=campaign&id=22)

Good luck!
(2 A Levels required)

F/O UFO

24th Feb 2009, 06:54

Excellent. And, thank god, a FTO who will let you apply on predicted grades!

grrrr CTC

Grizzle

2nd Mar 2009, 19:12

The only difference being that once you complete an MPL course you will only be allowed to fly the type of commercial aircraft you were trained on

That is not quite correct.

The last phase of the MPL course is a full type rating conducted by a TRTO (in this case Flybe) as part of an approved MPL scheme. Once the type rating has been completed, including LST landings, an MPL licence will be issued by the authority. There is no requirement for an individual to fly with the TRTO beyond that point, other than that they will no doubt have been bonded for the type rating. An MPL licence is just that - restricted to flying in a multi crew environment. Should an individual wish to do another type rating, after licence issue, they may do so. They just need to complete another type rating course. What they cannot do is a type/class rating on an aircraft certified for operation with a single crew member. The majority of airline pilots do not keep either single or multi piston land ratings current and are therefore operating using an MPL. The only difference is that, should they wish/need to do so, they could revert to single crew operations or fly a light aircraft for leisure.

As in a fATPL, at 1500 hours the MPL becomes an ATPL, with the same multi crew restriction.

Contrary to opinions stated earlier, I think it will be a no brainer for the airlines, who will be pleased to have a hand in the initial training.

1mag1n3

2nd Mar 2009, 21:33

Just out of curiosity, is this open to 17 year old's?
I cant seem to find anything on the age front for entry requirements...
If so Ill be applying!

Celtic Pilot

3rd Mar 2009, 12:03

just 2 A-levels required,,,

there is goin to be hundreds of applications for this scheme then if that is all is required... not much!!!!

GeorgEGNT

3rd Mar 2009, 16:45

The price for this course is GBP76,000 :eek:
I think I'll be sitting this one out I'm afraid :sad:. Good luck to the guys and gals applying.

TheFlyingMonkey

4th Mar 2009, 23:05

So then... who's applied??

Sent my questions back this evening, ID number: 9 hundred and something - I hope that doesnt mean over 900 people had already applied 4 days after it opened! :eek:

F/O UFO

5th Mar 2009, 09:19

I expect it does! I got 800 and something!

Did you get a conformation email when you sent your answers back? I did'nt. hope they got it!

ppiilloott

6th Mar 2009, 13:26

Yeah, I am 96 something.

I sent my answers in last night, and not had a confirmation.

I guess the confirmation will be yes you are through, or no you aren't.

Hope to meet you guys in Exeter. :ok:

magnificent_man

13th Mar 2009, 14:05

Hi guys,

Think I am number 974 so quite a few of us!

I was wondering if anyone had had a reply after sending the questions back? Will everyone get a response saying yay or nay?

I sent mine last Friday so I wonder how long it will take them to sift through the large amount of applications.

Best of luck,

M.M

ppiilloott

13th Mar 2009, 14:51

NO I still haven't heard anything back, I do keep checking my e-mails every few hours. This thread has died, so I assume everyone is just awaiting the outcome of their e-mails?

magnificent_man

13th Mar 2009, 16:27

I guess, at least I hope so!

TheFlyingMonkey

13th Mar 2009, 19:42

Hey guys,

The closing date was Sunday night, people that applied then would have Monday Tuesday Wednesday to do the questions, so they wouldnt have even started looking at the answers until yesterday. Suspect sometime back end of next week for a response. Fingers crossed. As for the application number, this could possibly include all FTE applications so far in 2009... so dont get too worried thinking your against 1000 other candidates!

Good luck lads

totomechanic

17th Mar 2009, 18:20

Flybe's going to select 6 out of approx. 950 applicants!! :eek: odds are similar to etihad. Good luck to all.

PS: Was I the only one who received 9 questions?

F/O UFO

18th Mar 2009, 18:50

Has anyone received a reply then? I'm through to phase 3 :)

BusinessMan

18th Mar 2009, 20:42

Well done F/O UFO :ok:. Since no-one else seems to have commented... it looks like you may be the only one going for it (joke). Time to ensure you know all your answers backwards for the interview and have got a good understanding of Flybe and what they do. Best of luck and hopefully you'll be at stage 4 in a couple of weeks :). BM

magnificent_man

18th Mar 2009, 22:12

Still no answer....Im thinking this may not be a great sign.....:\

Well shall wait and see.

M.M

MickeyH

18th Mar 2009, 22:34

I'm also through to stage 3, yey :-)

F/O UFO

18th Mar 2009, 22:36

Thanks BusinessMan, The sent a fairly substantial Maths and Physics guide by FTE. As you said, time to learn the company backwards.

TheFlyingMonkey

18th Mar 2009, 23:47

I'll be there too! :) I'm there April 1st at 9am, gonna have to drive down Tuesday night. I was quite suprised at the maths and physics guidence notes as well!

Looking forward to seeing you there.

BusinessMan

19th Mar 2009, 12:13

Good to see a few more are through to Stage 3, Well done! :). I'm glad they're sending some notice of the maths & physics as when I went I was simply lucky that I'd already prepared as a result of trying for OAA too beforehand. Definitely worth getting basic maths & GCSE Physics squared away in advance. As well as being able to talk to any of your Qn answers in depth at interview.

Best of luck guys and let us know how it goes. It's great to see someone being given their shot at the dream in these bad times:D. Cheers, BM

skeletor

19th Mar 2009, 12:41

What a completely boring way to learn to fly!

BSmuppet

19th Mar 2009, 15:25

What do you mean skeletor?

skeletor

19th Mar 2009, 16:45

Simply that by replacing flight training with simulator training you are missing out on some of the best and most enjoyable flying you may ever experience.

Hacking around the circuit or heading off around the countryside with all your mates in the same bit of airspace......then exchanging tales in the bar afterwards cannot be replaced with....."you won't believe what happened to me in simulator today.....yawn!"

A valid way into a difficult industry, and good luck to all, but IMHO slightly dull.

Simulation is never as much fun as the real thing now is it?

dougy24

19th Mar 2009, 23:45

Skeletor

Have to agree with you, I am Fairly newly qualified as an ATPL and flying heavy aircraft in European airspace, Sims are great, but they are sims !! wonderfull for instrument flying practise and system/emergency training, but the real experience comes with the weather, other traffic etc etc etc, that you dont get in a sim.

Still we shall see

Groundloop

20th Mar 2009, 09:39

Except that I'll think you will find that the MPL course agreed between FTE and Flybe will include a lot more actual air time than the theoretical MPL minimum.

skeletor

20th Mar 2009, 17:11

.......anyone know what the hours breakdown will be? (roughly)

ca2bb

24th Mar 2009, 12:59

SimonBlame

I received an e-mail last Thursday stating I had made it to the next stage:)
They may still be waiting for confirmation on who will be attending before re-allocating any spaces.

Anyone else booked in for next Friday?

DaveD

24th Mar 2009, 13:09

I received an email also.

Sent an email back asking what is involed and it's full self funded and they want £92,000 pounds......

F/O UFO

24th Mar 2009, 22:29

Of which Flybe pay £20k

ca2bb

24th Mar 2009, 23:10

The Flybe MPL/FTE Scheme is £76,000, and as F/O UFO says, Flybe pay £20k, which they reclaim from you wages over the first 5 years of employment.
More details can be found HERE (http://www.ftejerez.com/popups/terms.php?campaign_id=22)

magnificent_man

26th Mar 2009, 17:53

Hi Guys,

Few questions. Stage 3 involves the usual PILAPT tests + the stuff FTE have sent to us eg the Maths/Physics/Verbal revision sheets. All pretty nice of them to send!

In terms of the interview, will it be with a Flybe Pilot and someone from FTE?

Any ideas on the sort of questions they may be asking bar the obvious?

Is there going to be one of those group exercise things? eg. build this mecano set...:(

Don't know if anyone has any ideas at all.

Thanks for any replies

M.M

TheFlyingMonkey

14th Apr 2009, 16:57

Has anyone heard anything since attending phase 3 the other week yet??

ppiilloott

14th Apr 2009, 17:13

Ha, you beat me to it. I was just about to ask the same thing. I am also yet to hear anything, but hey, no news is good news.

MickeyH

5th May 2009, 17:18

Anyone else had the phone call?? :}

bgreenboxb

6th May 2009, 18:31

hi, are you saying you've been successful and got a place? if so congratulations

F/O UFO

6th May 2009, 22:17

Hi Mickey, what day was your interview?

quant

7th May 2009, 08:11

OAA / FLYBE
MULTI CREW PILOT’S LICENCE (MPL) AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING SCHEME

BACKGROUND
As the leading regional airline in Europe, and with an expanding aircraft fleet, Flybe has a continuing requirement to recruit high calibre, new First Officers who have completed a quality ab-initio training scheme. The ab-initio route now includes a new, highly innovative international training scheme, the MPL course.
The information outlined below concerns the first joint OAA/Flybe MPL course. Jointly designed by OAA and Flybe, the aim of this first course is to produce high quality First Officers, trained from the outset to Flybe’s requirements, and able to move immediately into the right hand seat of the airline’s advanced Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 on completion of MPL training.
Flybe and Oxford Aviation Academy (OAA) have a long-standing relationship and OAA APPFO graduates already routinely join the airline direct from training. For the future, the MPL course will be the preferred route into Flybe, supplementing but not replacing the APPFO and will provide selected candidates with partial financial support sponsored equally by OAA and Flybe.
The first MPL course will commence at Oxford on 1st September and will last for approximately 65 weeks. The notes below, in the form of Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), are intended to provide you with an outline of the scheme together with the information and guidance necessary to enable you to apply. Further information, guidance and advice will be given to those applicants invited to Oxford for the initial stages of the combined OAA/Flybe selection programme.

For those of you that don't get into FTE give the above a chance...

Oxford Aviation Training (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/GV/flybe/flybe_info.htm)

Good luck :ok:

ChecklistPlease

7th May 2009, 08:36

So What percentage of the course is simulation?? I do agree that simulators are very good these days, you can do all your emergenies drills, Navigation IF extra practice. But, I think nothing can replace real time flying learning environment.

I'm quite surprised actually that Flybe have schemes still going!, since they are going to put quite a few Dash 8's and E195 away for the latter part of this year into the winter next year. I know a guy who just graduated from FTE, he has been told to expect a 9-18 month wait until he gets to do his type rating! Just hope the economic situation improves:ugh:

Anyway Good Luck to all, Safe Flying!

Otto Throttle

7th May 2009, 09:48

Checklist,

The reason being, I would imagine, is that nobody can accurately predict when the current downturn will eventually end, and how quickly things will recover.

I recall post 9/11 the last BA fully sponsored graduates being told that they could expect a 2 year wait before BA would be in a position to offer them a TR course. As it turned out, they waited only 6 months.

Aviation is a funny old game, and Flybe one of the smarter operators.

BetpumpS

7th May 2009, 09:59

Checklist

The same question was posed in 2007 (if my mind serves me correctly) - basically asking why is there a Flybe/Cabair Flybe/FTE ATPL 'sponsorship' scheme when even in 2007 there were still many cadets out there who would have even been willing to pay for a TR - even though Flybe bond you.

Of course you had the usual replies..you are a known cadet from the outset, you learn their way, your reports are constantly seen, you were hand picked at the selection interview by Flybe themselves at Stage 4 etc.

But it still did not answer the question WHY! If Flybe are paying £20'000 sponsorship for EACH 'perfect' candidate, then surely they could come up with a selection/recruitment process for all those hundreds of 250 hr cadets out there for a fraction of the cost in order to find 'the perfect pilot'.

This was finally answered by quite a smart-ass person here on pprune in a very good reply (and quite logical to me) that Flybe actually MAKE money, even in the event that the cadets never gets a job with them (remember you may not get a job straight away and are actually contracted to swim in the pool for circa 2 years).

I can't remember the exact reasons - I'm trying to find the post. But it basically stated that if there is position for the sponsored cadet then obviously that is great - they have got their' perfect pilot' who is not a risk and will have his/her salary deducted over X years. So no cost to the company there.

If they do not have a position for the sponsored cadet after training or within the X'years they are contracted to swim in the pool which may very well happen during these times, then allegedly :confused: Flybe still don't actually 'lose' the £20K.

I can't remember the exact reasons and don't particularly want to write my 'logical' reasons in case as usual I'm ridiculed by some snotty wannabe who thinks they know it all.

Needless to say I agree with the original post I am pertaining to. Simpy because I know that nothing is for free.

Anyway hopefully that answers your question Checklist

batman123

7th May 2009, 10:17

of course they make money from wanabe. Why do you think they take guys with 0 hours, when this market is filled with pilots ready to fly.
schools pay airline "undertable" each time an airline send a student to an TRTO.this is how this market work, if a school want a contract with an airline, a school has to give some undeclared money to the pocket of the managment.
Still I don't know how much the receive, probably a lot.
that 's another way for a company to make money, some charge pilots for time building.

BetpumpS

7th May 2009, 10:20

of course they make money from wanabe. Why do you think they take guys with 0 hours, when this market is filled with pilots ready to fly.

thank you Batman :ugh:

Now what was I saying about know-it-alls?

rogerg

7th May 2009, 11:00

the aim of this first course is to produce high quality First Officers, trained from the outset to Flybe’s requirements, and able to move immediately into the right hand seat of the airline’s advanced Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 on completion of MPL training

Apart from any financial advantage they may gain, taking a MPL student means the type and company conversion should be cheaper and with less chance of failure.

BetpumpS

7th May 2009, 11:25

I am aware that during the course, if anything goes pear shaped then cadets are put onto the fATPL. That is good thinking.

However be aware of the very possible risk that if you do not get a job with Flybe, even after swimming, then you have a license that is worthless unless you have funds to convert it back to a fATPL.

Also be aware that until you get 1500 hrs, I suggest you pray to whoever it is you pray to that Flybe do not go under during the couple or so years it takes to get un-frozen. You will find it very difficult to get another job with an MPL under 1500 hours, let alone in this climate.

If I was a wannabe again, I would find the decision to do the Flybe MPL (providing I was successful during selection) very very difficult.

On one hand, you could do an fATPL with no guarantee of an airline job - yet have the license that allows you to apply for different pilot jobs.

Or do you go for the sponsorship where a job is "guaranteed" up to a point? Knowing that if Flybe have no place for you within 2? years, or you get made redundant before 1500 hrs, you have a worthless license?

I'm glad I don't have this decision to make.

quant

7th May 2009, 11:44

However be aware of the very possible risk that if you do not get a job with Flybe, even after swimming, then you have a license that is worthless unless you have funds to convert it back to a fATPL.

with the oaa scheme they will pay the cost of the conversion if flybe tells you to bugger off ;)

wobble2plank

7th May 2009, 11:49

with the oaa scheme they will pay the cost of the conversion if flybe tells you to bugger off

Personally, if I were going for this scheme, I would want that signed, sealed, written in blood with a personally signed bankers draft from the head OAA honcho in the envelope included before believing it.

This licence will benefit someone, sadly I think it will only benefit the airline operator at the moment as the finer details continue to be hammered out.

Oddly enough there seems to be little interest from the big national carriers who still require a full ATPL prior to getting into the recruiting page on their websites.

BetpumpS

7th May 2009, 11:54

If that is true quant, not saying you are lying, the I agree with wobble. I'll also get a solicitor to read over it.

Rapha_BA

7th May 2009, 14:46

just a question,a bit off topic but; Quant,weren't you flying the A340-600,aged 21,like you posted on another forum?found a post you made regarding flight schools in April 09,where you say you want to start training in May 09?

skyhighbird

7th May 2009, 15:10

i think he/she was joking on that thread. if you look at past posts he/she works for virgin in admin

quant

7th May 2009, 15:24

If that is true quant, not saying you are lying, the I agree with wobble. I'll also get a solicitor to read over it. betpumps what would i gain from lying? straight from the OAA site:

MPL to CPL/IR Guarantee: MPL is a brand new and highly innovative programme. Whilst we are fully confident that it represents the future route to commercial pilot training, we also wish to protect participants from any unforeseen risk in undertaking this first ever UK based scheme. In the very unlikely event that any problem does occur, OAA will guarantee to provide, at no cost to the selected students, any additional flight training required to convert to a standard CPL/IR licence. This will ensure that graduates will be eligible to join any airline with the same professional licensing qualification as available to our APPFO students.Oxford Aviation Training (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/GV/flybe/flybe_info.htm)

i think he/she was joking on that thread. if you look at past posts he/she works for virgin in admin wrong my pprune says it all...

just a question,a bit off topic but; Quant,weren't you flying the A340-600,aged 21,like you posted on another forum?found a post you made regarding flight schools in April 09,where you say you want to start training in May 09?Don't believe everything you read on pprune! :=

:D

Rapha_BA

7th May 2009, 15:36

fair enough,only a question!
now, on topic,I wouln't commit to this MPL license,specially with a £70k price tag with no "real" guarantees!fair enough if everything goes bananas they'll put you through fATPL course,but,who guarante that flybe will be "safe" untill you reach the 1500 h?not for me thank you

Propellerhead

7th May 2009, 16:01

The following guarantees are in place:

MPL to CPL/IR Guarantee: MPL is a brand new and highly innovative programme. Whilst we are fully confident that it represents the future route to commercial pilot training, we also wish to protect participants from any unforeseen risk in undertaking this first ever UK based scheme. In the very unlikely event that any problem does occur, OAA will guarantee to provide, at no cost to the selected students, any additional flight training required to convert to a standard CPL/IR licence. This will ensure that graduates will be eligible to join any airline with the same professional licensing qualification as available to our APPFO students.

Airline Employment Guarantee: Any sponsored or mentored training programme involves a risk – albeit a very small one – that the participating airline might be unable, for reasons outside its control, to offer employment after graduation. For MPL graduates, there is an added potential complication because their licence is directly linked to employment by the airline involved. Under current regulations, it cannot readily be transferred to another airline. To guard against this slight risk, OAA will again guarantee to provide, at no cost to the selected student, any additional flight training required to convert to a standard CPL/IR licence. This will ensure that, in the event of such an occurrence, MPL graduates will be able to join any airline with the same professional licensing qualification as available to our APPFO students.

Of course you need to study the actual contract, but with up to 20k assistance towards the training and a sponsor airline I can't see any shortage of applicants.